Wizards Summer League 2013 - Mini Camp 8th Games July 13

[TGW]

Watching Oladipo offensively, he reminds me of a young Gilbert. His shooting form looks eerily similar and offensively they just have a ton of similarities when Oladipo is playing point...Of course we don't have to compare their defense...

I'm glad he wasn't there at three. Saved a lot of potential "what ifs".

Yes, I had the same opinion as well. The shooting stroke and elevation on the jumpshot looks very similar. Also, their build is very similar.

I'm not sure Oladipo will have the same "swag" Gilbert had, but the look is definitely the same.

[payitforward]

It'll be fun to watch this group sort itself out. TBH, tho I'm staying positive, I still wish we'd kept Wolters and picked up Kazemi @54 -- or even Deshaun Thomas. In which case, no need for Maynor IMO.

Just an opinion, no more. But, actually Thomas had better college numbers, and... San Antonio took him (can't help but put a retrospective glow around him ).

All the same... can't wait to see the young'uns compete in Vegas.

[payitforward]

People who say that Summer League doesn't mean anything are forgetting one very important thing.

It's basketball! Man, it seems like weeks -- maybe even days! -- since there's been basketball to watch.

Go Wizards!

[doclinkin]

Hey doc -- It's good to see you posting about hoops and stuff, but more importantly: How are you surviving the zombie apocalypse?

Hah! Right. Do I owe you one on there? I need to check...

EDIT -- Yep looks like it's my up. Hmmn...

[payitforward]

Why would I leave John out of any discussion involving our core?... Answer this question, what would it take for you to move John to Orlando? I wouldn't move John for Harkless and Oladipo.

No I won't "answer me this" -- it's a dumb question. Just as no I didn't and wouldn't leave John Wall out of a discussion of our core or our future.

...you're still ignoring the fact that Hennigan acquired half of the talent you're extolling through trades for existing roster pieces. I'm not an Ernie apologist (to the contrary, I think he's terrible, i just happen to believe that essentially through happenstance he managed to put together a talented core)

So what? He acquired them is all that matters, and no other team in that complicated deal still has even one player left from it.

Yes, you are right -- thru happenstance Ernie has acquired some good players. And you are right that he's terrible.

Ernie maneuvered just to acquire the picks that turned into Seraphin, Booker and Singleton. Now, I don't think he maximized the value of those selections, but he did do a bit of shrewd operating just to acquire those assets.

If somebody makes a nice bowl of soup, then stands over it and p***es in it, it's a little bit late to give him credit.

On another note, before we genuflect before Henny, let's see how Oladipo turns out. I wasn't a fan of the pick and I personally believe that it'll be viewed down the road as a mistake, but let's at least give the selection time to play out.

What's the matter w/ you? Did I suggest he was a genius? Did he invent relativity? Can he bring world peace?

I didn't suggest we bow down before the great man; I suggested that if we keep our current FO, Orlando will lap us soon. Pretty much everything good Ernie has wound up with has been as a result of luck. He gets no credit for Wall. Seraphin hasn't worked out. Booker was a good pick and an intelligent move up to get him. Vesely is a disaster. Singleton is a disaster. Mack was a disaster. Beal was a good pick -- as with Wall he was pretty much the league's default at his spot. Throwing away #32 that year on Satoransky was idiotic. Throwing away #46 in that astonishingly deep draft was idiotic. Extending Dray for real $$ was idiotic. Failing to buy out Lewis was an error (tho not a horrible one as it turned out). Betting the farm on Nene's health was a risk, and it's still not clear how we make out on that.

Sheesh -- how long a list do you want? I like the pick of Porter -- again a piece of luck not brains made it possible.

[willbcocks]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

[Kanyewest]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

On the plus side, EG did trade Arenas for Rashard Lewis which got their last GM fired.

[80sballboy]

How can you have a name like Reggie Jackson and not be a total stud?

I'm watching and wondering how much of the void Jackson can fill if Westbrook does get traded some day. I know the Thunder lost in the playoffs, but Jackson at times looked darned good vs both Houston and Memphis. He's growing a lot more confident.

Jackson will never be an elite player like Westbrook, because he's not able to make those acrobatic, attacking drives that force defenders to foul at times. I do think Jackson can be a steady player if the Thunder ever do think about trading Westbrook for a star at another position, such as C.

Reggie Jackson looked so good that he was benched late in games for 100-year old Derek Fisher. Not saying he can't get better but there's nothing like SL defense to help a young player's confidenc.

[hands11]

So far I really liked what I've seen from Oladipo & Olynyk. I would have had no problems with taking Oladipo 3rd and going with small ball. I think he's going to be a helluva player and is arguably the hands on favorite to be the best player in this class when all is said & done.

Olynyk's skill level is simply unmatched for a 7-0 draft propsect. And IMO he's tougher than he appears, takes contact well aand is capable of grabbing tough rebounds. Cody Zeller is a better athlete but doesn't handle contact nearly as well. At worst I think Olynyk is a solid rotation player for years to come.

Wait. I thought Noel was the only consensus #1 in this draft ? After that, it was just a bunch of slop.

[hands11]

Watching Oladipo offensively, he reminds me of a young Gilbert. His shooting form looks eerily similar and offensively they just have a ton of similarities when Oladipo is playing point...Of course we don't have to compare their defense...

I'm glad he wasn't there at three. Saved a lot of potential "what ifs".

Yes, I had the same opinion as well. The shooting stroke and elevation on the jumpshot looks very similar. Also, their build is very similar.

I'm not sure Oladipo will have the same "swag" Gilbert had, but the look is definitely the same.

Swag is not something I worry about VO having. He has a ton of Swag.

VO was an early favorite of mind when he was way lower on DraftX. Going to be fun to watch him in the NBA. And we will get to because he is in our division.

Its going to be fun to watch the young Wizards go against the other young talent in the conference.

They still need some help up front so they better match up against other younger front courts though. They could really use a Greg Monroe, Omer Asik, or Gasol

Kills me they didn't draft Nikola Vucevic

But Omer Asik should be a real possibility. So might Gasol

[DCsOwn]

Victor Oladipo is nothing like Gilbert. He isn't anywhere near the level of natural scorer that Gil is, he's nowhere as devastatingly quick with the ball in his hands, and I don't think he'll ever develop into the primary offensive threat on a consistent playoff team. He's better defensively, he's better from an intangible perspective, but he's not in the same stratosphere as Gil was as an offensive prospect.

[DCsOwn]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

Orlando's only had one high lottery pick, but they had an incredible asset in Dwight Howard to seriously galvanize a rebuilding effort and also a highly valued commodity in JJ Reddick (you know, the principal in the deal that shook Eric Bledsoe loose from LA). My point is, and something Payitforward missed to an excruciating degree as he lurched from point to point failing to discern the purpose of the responses that he was replying to, we're crediting their gm with doing a tremendous job (which is perfectly fine) and using their fairly rapid accumulation of assets as a way to bludgeon and indict Ernie. My point was that beyond the fact that we dont need an additional comparative study to impugn the competency of our dolt of a GM, this particular criticism of Ernie centered around the Magic's reshuffle is the intellectual equivalent of jumping a kid in a wheel chair. It's intellectually dishonest and completely gratuitous to compare these two situations because the Orlando situation was completely different than ours, and not in the tripe sense that every situation is different. They had a top 5 player in the world to move and a guy that a year and a half ago Phil Jackson said that he would take in a draft of every existing player to start a franchise. They also had a player, acquired by a separate regime that had tremendous value around the league. They had a spectacular asset to move and another terrific one, that's why they've rebuilt so quickly. That's the point. Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects.

[willbcocks]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

Orlando's only had one high lottery pick, but they had an incredible asset in Dwight Howard to seriously galvanize a rebuilding effort and also a highly valued commodity in JJ Reddick (you know, the principal in the deal that shook Eric Bledsoe loose from LA). My point is, and something Payitforward missed to an excruciating degree as he lurched from point to point failing to discern the purpose of the responses that he was replying to, we're crediting their gm with doing a tremendous job (which is perfectly fine) and using their fairly rapid accumulation of assets as a way to bludgeon and indict Ernie. My point was that beyond the fact that we dont need an additional comparative study to impugn the competency of our dolt of a GM, this particular criticism of Ernie centered around the Magic's reshuffle is the intellectual equivalent of jumping a kid in a wheel chair. It's intellectually dishonest and completely gratuitous to compare these two situations because the Orlando situation was completely different than ours, and not in the tripe sense that every situation is different. They had a top 5 player in the world to move and a guy that a year and a half ago Phil Jackson said that he would take in a draft of every existing player to start a franchise. They also had a player, acquired by a separate regime that had tremendous value around the league. They had a spectacular asset to move and another terrific one, that's why they've rebuilt so quickly. That's the point. Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects.

I completely disagree that Reddick was a highly valued commodity. After all, Milwaukee just let him walk and got nothing for him. He had some positive value, and got a mid first round pick who hadn't played much back in return. We had similar assets (Jamison, McGee, Butler), each of whom had similar value to Reddick and combined clearly had more value, and all we ended up with was Nene and his contract. Of course the value Reddick got back was enhanced because Orlando's GM can judge talent (Harris) and made a good trade, but that's a positive testament to their GM.

They did have Dwight, but look at the other teams in the trade--they walked away with nothing. A lot of teams who have lost superstars walked away with not much, or walked away with veterans who aren't suited for a rebuild. Orlando got two decent prospects, who have since outperformed their trade value at the time (+2 more for their scouting), and set the rebuilding ship headed the right direction immediately.

We were in a similar situation, and we traded the #5 for Randy Foye. It was time to rebuild, or at least take the first steps towards rebuilding, and our GM totally blew it. In the past five years, he has had a grand total of zero trades where he got more value than our players were worth, or the players we did get outperformed their value at the time of the trade. Orlando got 3 such players in one year.

[DCsOwn]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

Orlando's only had one high lottery pick, but they had an incredible asset in Dwight Howard to seriously galvanize a rebuilding effort and also a highly valued commodity in JJ Reddick (you know, the principal in the deal that shook Eric Bledsoe loose from LA). My point is, and something Payitforward missed to an excruciating degree as he lurched from point to point failing to discern the purpose of the responses that he was replying to, we're crediting their gm with doing a tremendous job (which is perfectly fine) and using their fairly rapid accumulation of assets as a way to bludgeon and indict Ernie. My point was that beyond the fact that we dont need an additional comparative study to impugn the competency of our dolt of a GM, this particular criticism of Ernie centered around the Magic's reshuffle is the intellectual equivalent of jumping a kid in a wheel chair. It's intellectually dishonest and completely gratuitous to compare these two situations because the Orlando situation was completely different than ours, and not in the tripe sense that every situation is different. They had a top 5 player in the world to move and a guy that a year and a half ago Phil Jackson said that he would take in a draft of every existing player to start a franchise. They also had a player, acquired by a separate regime that had tremendous value around the league. They had a spectacular asset to move and another terrific one, that's why they've rebuilt so quickly. That's the point. Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects.

I completely disagree that Reddick was a highly valued commodity. After all, Milwaukee just let him walk and got nothing for him. He had some positive value, and got a mid first round pick who hadn't played much back in return. We had similar assets (Jamison, McGee, Butler), each of whom had similar value to Reddick and combined clearly had more value, and all we ended up with was Nene and his contract. Of course the value Reddick got back was enhanced because Orlando's GM can judge talent (Harris) and made a good trade, but that's a positive testament to their GM.

They did have Dwight, but look at the other teams in the trade--they walked away with nothing. A lot of teams who have lost superstars walked away with not much, or walked away with veterans who aren't suited for a rebuild. Orlando got two decent prospects, who have since outperformed their trade value at the time (+2 more for their scouting), and set the rebuilding ship headed the right direction immediately.

We were in a similar situation, and we traded the #5 for Randy Foye. It was time to rebuild, or at least take the first steps towards rebuilding, and our GM totally blew it. In the past five years, he has had a grand total of zero trades where he got more value than our players were worth, or the players we did get outperformed their value at the time of the trade. Orlando got 3 such players in one year.

Milwaukee didnt let Reddick walk for nothing, he was an unrestricted free agent that had no intention of re-signing with the team. They essentially got what they could from an asset after a walk year by helping facilitate a trade. My point was that he was the principal returning asset in a deal that extricated Bledsoe (himself a highly valued asset) away from the Clippers. He clearly has significant value around the league if in a span of five months he was the centerpiece in trades moving Harris and Lamb in one instance and Eric Bledsoe in another. I don't agree that Jamison, Butler or McGee had similar value league-wide at the time of their departure as the former were both appreciably older than Reddick, and the latter was known as a complete head-case around the league when he was moved. Butler and Haywood clearly had value to the Mavs and Cuban actually came out after the deal and said that they would've given up more to land both and that's a demerit on Ernie's hideous record imo, but that Mavs team was devoid of any young impact players or guys who projected to be that down the road, and so we're probably talking about a few additional low first round picks as additives to get the deal done.

I'm not sure what your point about Howard is. He had tremendous value at the time he was moved because of his unique talent as a player and the additional rights a team had as the incumbent in free agency negotiations. The Lakers traded for him thinking that the only way he would leave an additional 30 million dollars on the table would be if he absolutely despised it there. Thats why they were willing to move Bynum after such a strong season and that of course set off the chain of events that led to so many pieces being shifted around. Unfortunately for them he did. They viewed his Bird Rights as like a transition tag in the NFL, so Orlando had not only the player to deal, but also some additional security to their trade partner. That's a valuable commodity. Certainly more valuable than an unproven commodity in a supposedly weak draft (at the time it was thought to be weak). And to boot, the Wizards, supposedly at Pollin's behest although that hasn't been corroborated, were attempting to move an unproven, non-elite asset for proven commodities. You rarely get full value in that type of transaction (which is actually the diametric opposite of Orlando's move.) Look at what the Pelicans had to move to land a nice pg/faux all-star.

Listen, Ernie sucks and I'm not trying to prove anything to the contrary, I just think that this particular critique of him is wrongheaded and unnecessary. I applaud Orlando for turning Howard and Reddick into young assets, but it's not that impressive to me.

[Wizardspride]

Click on the link to read the rest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... ashington/

Wizards’ Eric Maynor set to play a familiar role in Washington


Eric Maynor has spent his career as the ideal backup to elite point guards — the steady, able hand assigned to guide the second unit and provide a change of pace to the frenetic speedsters who preceded him on the court.

In four seasons with three teams, Maynor has already assumed that role for all-star Deron Williams in Utah, all-star Russell Westbrook in Oklahoma City and rookie of the year Damian Lillard in Portland. Last week, Maynor arrived as a free agent signee in Washington, where he has been tasked with the same assignment for John Wall, a former No. 1 pick who started to fully tap into his potential late last season.

Feeling the need to upgrade behind Wall, the Wizards targeted Maynor immediately after the free agent recruitment period began. And desiring to end the suspense about his future, Maynor reciprocated the interest and accepted a two-year deal worth about $4 million and includes a player option for the second season.

“I think this is the kind of team that’s going to be on the rise,” Maynor said. “I just wanted to get it out the way. I didn’t want to be waiting. I felt like this was a great situation for me. Young team. Up-and-coming. Nice deal for me. I’m excited about being here.”

[willbcocks]

Orlando's only had one high lottery pick, but they had an incredible asset in Dwight Howard to seriously galvanize a rebuilding effort and also a highly valued commodity in JJ Reddick (you know, the principal in the deal that shook Eric Bledsoe loose from LA). My point is, and something Payitforward missed to an excruciating degree as he lurched from point to point failing to discern the purpose of the responses that he was replying to, we're crediting their gm with doing a tremendous job (which is perfectly fine) and using their fairly rapid accumulation of assets as a way to bludgeon and indict Ernie. My point was that beyond the fact that we dont need an additional comparative study to impugn the competency of our dolt of a GM, this particular criticism of Ernie centered around the Magic's reshuffle is the intellectual equivalent of jumping a kid in a wheel chair. It's intellectually dishonest and completely gratuitous to compare these two situations because the Orlando situation was completely different than ours, and not in the tripe sense that every situation is different. They had a top 5 player in the world to move and a guy that a year and a half ago Phil Jackson said that he would take in a draft of every existing player to start a franchise. They also had a player, acquired by a separate regime that had tremendous value around the league. They had a spectacular asset to move and another terrific one, that's why they've rebuilt so quickly. That's the point. Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects.

I completely disagree that Reddick was a highly valued commodity. After all, Milwaukee just let him walk and got nothing for him. He had some positive value, and got a mid first round pick who hadn't played much back in return. We had similar assets (Jamison, McGee, Butler), each of whom had similar value to Reddick and combined clearly had more value, and all we ended up with was Nene and his contract. Of course the value Reddick got back was enhanced because Orlando's GM can judge talent (Harris) and made a good trade, but that's a positive testament to their GM.

They did have Dwight, but look at the other teams in the trade--they walked away with nothing. A lot of teams who have lost superstars walked away with not much, or walked away with veterans who aren't suited for a rebuild. Orlando got two decent prospects, who have since outperformed their trade value at the time (+2 more for their scouting), and set the rebuilding ship headed the right direction immediately.

We were in a similar situation, and we traded the #5 for Randy Foye. It was time to rebuild, or at least take the first steps towards rebuilding, and our GM totally blew it. In the past five years, he has had a grand total of zero trades where he got more value than our players were worth, or the players we did get outperformed their value at the time of the trade. Orlando got 3 such players in one year.

Milwaukee didnt let Reddick walk for nothing, he was an unrestricted free agent that had no intention of re-signing with the team. They essentially got what they could from an asset after a walk year by helping facilitate a trade. My point was that he was the principal returning asset in a deal that extricated Bledsoe (himself a highly valued asset) away from the Clippers. He clearly has significant value around the league if in a span of five months he was the centerpiece in trades moving Harris and Lamb in one instance and Eric Bledsoe in another. I don't agree that Jamison, Butler or McGee had similar value league-wide at the time of their departure as the former were both appreciably older than Reddick, and the latter was known as a complete head-case around the league when he was moved. Butler and Haywood clearly had value to the Mavs and Cuban actually came out after the deal and said that they would've given up more to land both and that's a demerit on Ernie's hideous record imo, but that Mavs team was devoid of any young impact players or guys who projected to be that down the road, and so we're probably talking about a few additional low first round picks as additives to get the deal done.

I'm not sure what your point about Howard is. He had tremendous value at the time he was moved because of his unique talent as a player and the additional rights a team had as the incumbent in free agency negotiations. The Lakers traded for him thinking that the only way he would leave an additional 30 million dollars on the table would be if he absolutely despised it there. Thats why they were willing to move Bynum after such a strong season and that of course set off the chain of events that led to so many pieces being shifted around. Unfortunately for them he did. They viewed his Bird Rights as like a transition tag in the NFL, so Orlando had not only the player to deal, but also some additional security to their trade partner. That's a valuable commodity. Certainly more valuable than an unproven commodity in a supposedly weak draft (at the time it was thought to be weak). And to boot, the Wizards, supposedly at Pollin's behest although that hasn't been corroborated, were attempting to move an unproven, non-elite asset for proven commodities. You rarely get full value in that type of transaction (which is actually the diametric opposite of Orlando's move.) Look at what the Pelicans had to move to land a nice pg/faux all-star.

Listen, Ernie sucks and I'm not trying to prove anything to the contrary, I just think that this particular critique of him is wrongheaded and unnecessary. I applaud Orlando for turning Howard and Reddick into young assets, but it's not that impressive to me.

Milwaukee didn't get bledsoe though--they got two second round picks. And Doron Lamb was a second round pick who was doing nothing for Milwaukee. Aside from second round picks, the only thing that Reddick netted in two trades was the #19 pick from two years ago who was averaging 12 mpg. Now don't get me wrong--Harris looks real good now and I always thought his value should have been greater than it was. But I don't think Orlando's GM, coming into his job with JJ freaking Reddick on the team, had some huge advantage over EG, who had 4 guys (Jamison, Butler, Haywood, McGee) with similar value on their own, and clearly greater value when taken together. He ended up with nothing for them.

Howard clearly had greater value than anything the Wiz had when they decided to rebuild (6 years after EG first became GM). So clearly Orlando's GM did have one big chip to start with. But the Dwight Situation is not an easy one to extract value. First, he only had bird rights, not remaining years on his deal. He was hurt. He had created a publicity nightmare last year and couldn't be depended on staying whereever he went. And he was a legitimate threat to walk from Orlando (as Lebron did, as Bosh did, as Dwight eventually did himself), so they didn't have great leverage. All things considered, Orlando's GM handled that situation very well, as they easily could have ended up with nothing (as LA and Philly both did).

[hands11]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

I really like the Wall, Beal and Otto core but I do also like the VO, T Harris and Nikola

Hard to say which three is a better combination. One has a stud PG and one has a very effective big man.

12 rebounds a game in 33 minutes for a 2nd year big who changed teams is pretty impressive.
And 13 pts doesn't suck either.

He average 12 and 14 pts in March and 15 and 18 pts in April.

They might be a playoff team before most people project them to be.

[DCsOwn]

I completely disagree that Reddick was a highly valued commodity. After all, Milwaukee just let him walk and got nothing for him. He had some positive value, and got a mid first round pick who hadn't played much back in return. We had similar assets (Jamison, McGee, Butler), each of whom had similar value to Reddick and combined clearly had more value, and all we ended up with was Nene and his contract. Of course the value Reddick got back was enhanced because Orlando's GM can judge talent (Harris) and made a good trade, but that's a positive testament to their GM.

They did have Dwight, but look at the other teams in the trade--they walked away with nothing. A lot of teams who have lost superstars walked away with not much, or walked away with veterans who aren't suited for a rebuild. Orlando got two decent prospects, who have since outperformed their trade value at the time (+2 more for their scouting), and set the rebuilding ship headed the right direction immediately.

We were in a similar situation, and we traded the #5 for Randy Foye. It was time to rebuild, or at least take the first steps towards rebuilding, and our GM totally blew it. In the past five years, he has had a grand total of zero trades where he got more value than our players were worth, or the players we did get outperformed their value at the time of the trade. Orlando got 3 such players in one year.

Milwaukee didnt let Reddick walk for nothing, he was an unrestricted free agent that had no intention of re-signing with the team. They essentially got what they could from an asset after a walk year by helping facilitate a trade. My point was that he was the principal returning asset in a deal that extricated Bledsoe (himself a highly valued asset) away from the Clippers. He clearly has significant value around the league if in a span of five months he was the centerpiece in trades moving Harris and Lamb in one instance and Eric Bledsoe in another. I don't agree that Jamison, Butler or McGee had similar value league-wide at the time of their departure as the former were both appreciably older than Reddick, and the latter was known as a complete head-case around the league when he was moved. Butler and Haywood clearly had value to the Mavs and Cuban actually came out after the deal and said that they would've given up more to land both and that's a demerit on Ernie's hideous record imo, but that Mavs team was devoid of any young impact players or guys who projected to be that down the road, and so we're probably talking about a few additional low first round picks as additives to get the deal done.

I'm not sure what your point about Howard is. He had tremendous value at the time he was moved because of his unique talent as a player and the additional rights a team had as the incumbent in free agency negotiations. The Lakers traded for him thinking that the only way he would leave an additional 30 million dollars on the table would be if he absolutely despised it there. Thats why they were willing to move Bynum after such a strong season and that of course set off the chain of events that led to so many pieces being shifted around. Unfortunately for them he did. They viewed his Bird Rights as like a transition tag in the NFL, so Orlando had not only the player to deal, but also some additional security to their trade partner. That's a valuable commodity. Certainly more valuable than an unproven commodity in a supposedly weak draft (at the time it was thought to be weak). And to boot, the Wizards, supposedly at Pollin's behest although that hasn't been corroborated, were attempting to move an unproven, non-elite asset for proven commodities. You rarely get full value in that type of transaction (which is actually the diametric opposite of Orlando's move.) Look at what the Pelicans had to move to land a nice pg/faux all-star.

Listen, Ernie sucks and I'm not trying to prove anything to the contrary, I just think that this particular critique of him is wrongheaded and unnecessary. I applaud Orlando for turning Howard and Reddick into young assets, but it's not that impressive to me.

Milwaukee didn't get bledsoe though--they got two second round picks. And Doron Lamb was a second round pick who was doing nothing for Milwaukee. Aside from second round picks, the only thing that Reddick netted in two trades was the #19 pick from two years ago who was averaging 12 mpg. Now don't get me wrong--Harris looks real good now and I always thought his value should have been greater than it was. But I don't think Orlando's GM, coming into his job with JJ freaking Reddick on the team, had some huge advantage over EG, who had 4 guys (Jamison, Butler, Haywood, McGee) with similar value on their own, and clearly greater value when taken together. He ended up with nothing for them.

Howard clearly had greater value than anything the Wiz had when they decided to rebuild (6 years after EG first became GM). So clearly Orlando's GM did have one big chip to start with. But the Dwight Situation is not an easy one to extract value. First, he only had bird rights, not remaining years on his deal. He was hurt. He had created a publicity nightmare last year and couldn't be depended on staying whereever he went. And he was a legitimate threat to walk from Orlando (as Lebron did, as Bosh did, as Dwight eventually did himself), so they didn't have great leverage. All things considered, Orlando's GM handled that situation very well, as they easily could have ended up with nothing (as LA and Philly both did).

Fair points, and believe me, I'm on the fire Ernie wagon as much as anyone else. Very grateful for the lottery fortune in 2010 and last draft or who the hell knows where we'd be presently.

[payitforward]

...As for us not having an abundance of young talent. I think Wall, Beal and Otto is pretty abundant and we still need answers on Ves, Kevin and Singleton. That's plenty for now. Two mostly sure things. One rookie top 3 pick who looks to be a all around solid player, and 3 youngs that needs to prove it or lose it this year.... I'm keeping an open mind on Ves, Kevin and Singleton. They deserve that benefit of the doubt in my book.

Your keeping 'an open mind' doesn't make those guys any better than they are. [/quote]

All that means nothing regarding what I wrote. You lack context which is what I added.

There's your context above. Your context is you are "keeping an open mind." Good for you. "They deserve that". If you say so.

You don't offer any "context," Hands; you're just a fan dreaming up ex post facto justifications that let you hope. Nothing wrong with that, why should there be? But it isn't analysis.

As I said, if healthy we should be good this year. And if we keep our current FO the Magic will lap us soon.

[payitforward]

I like Wall, Beal and Porter better than Orlando's core. Given the option to swap those three for Harris, Vujevic, Oladipo, and Harkless (+ their other prospects, who are better than our total scrubs), I wouldn't even consider it.

But Orlando's had one high lottery pick. We've had 4. Their GM has run circles around our GM, who has used his own incompetence as his his primary asset for rebuilding. Our GM can easily find a way to screw up the good thing we have going. Their GM will knock their high lottery pick out of the park next year, swing a trade/FA signing of a great young player, and they'll be the Houston of the East.

Orlando's only had one high lottery pick, but they had an incredible asset in Dwight Howard to seriously galvanize a rebuilding effort and also a highly valued commodity in JJ Reddick (you know, the principal in the deal that shook Eric Bledsoe loose from LA). My point is, and something Payitforward missed to an excruciating degree as he lurched from point to point failing to discern the purpose of the responses that he was replying to, we're crediting their gm with doing a tremendous job (which is perfectly fine) and using their fairly rapid accumulation of assets as a way to bludgeon and indict Ernie. My point was that beyond the fact that we dont need an additional comparative study to impugn the competency of our dolt of a GM, this particular criticism of Ernie centered around the Magic's reshuffle is the intellectual equivalent of jumping a kid in a wheel chair. It's intellectually dishonest and completely gratuitous to compare these two situations because the Orlando situation was completely different than ours, and not in the tripe sense that every situation is different. They had a top 5 player in the world to move and a guy that a year and a half ago Phil Jackson said that he would take in a draft of every existing player to start a franchise. They also had a player, acquired by a separate regime that had tremendous value around the league. They had a spectacular asset to move and another terrific one, that's why they've rebuilt so quickly. That's the point. Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects.

Congratulations on your recent purchase of a thesaurus; that's big for you.

In the situation he was in, Hennigan has done a great job. There weren't a lot of people who thought he got a lot for Howard. And there weren't a lot of people who recognized what an outstanding prospect Tobias Harris either. Then again, we aren't disputing this point, inasmuch as you agree Hennigan has done a great job.

In the situation Ernie was in, Ernie didn't do that kind of job -- then again we're not really disputing that point either. You agree; you call Ernie "a dolt."

In fact, we're not disputing *any* point, are we? You seem to be at pains to point out that what Hennigan did and what Ernie did were in significantly different situations. You are right. Only... can you show me where I failed to notice that fact?

What I said was that if we keep our current FO, the Magic (i.e. Hennigan) will lap us soon us enough.

Oh... this point however -- "Anyone can expedite the rebuilding process if theyre selling off elite component pieces for prospects" -- is questionable, or at least it doesn't prove what you think it does. "Anyone can" -- maybe. "Anyone will" -- not so much. There are lots of examples of guys not getting value for an elite player (e.g. Presti for James Harden). Moreover it was pretty much everyone's opinion that Hennigan was a babe in the woods with his back against the wall (to mix metaphors!) and the Lakers and Howard's people had him over a barrel (to mix in another one).

In other words, you were both wrong (on everything significant) and right (in everything trivial). But, don't worry. You'll get over it soon. In a year or so, you'll hardly remember what you wrote.