The Tank Debate Thread

[Pseudonym]

LOL @ calling Melo a mediocre scorer.

[TheRealBlizzy]

And then you would need 4 Melo's to even be a contender.

You guys are insane. You don't even know anything about basketball, like really? You like our core and say stupid **** like you need 4 melo's to contend, HELLO 1 MELO IS BETTER THEN OUR TEAM !

No he isn't. Melo is overrated and has been his entire career. He has been outplayed by Allen Iverson at the age of 32 and only made it to the conference finals once....as the third best player on his team behind Billups and Nene. It is no wonder that DEN built a better team with a bunch of non all-stars than a glorified mediocre scorer who doesn't play defense.

you could only dream to have a melo on the raptors.

[TheRealBlizzy]

LOL @ calling Melo a mediocre scorer.

Career 25ppg 6.1 rpg 3.1 apg player on 46% fg 34% 3pt and 81% ft ... over 10 straight years.

Last yr he avg'd 29 ppg with 45% fg and 38% 3pt ... what is going on with this fan base.

[Marvin Martian]

LOL @ calling Melo a mediocre scorer.

His TS% isn't on the level of James Harden, LeBron James, Chris Paul, or Kevin Durant who are real franchise players.

[Marvin Martian]

You guys are insane. You don't even know anything about basketball, like really? You like our core and say stupid **** like you need 4 melo's to contend, HELLO 1 MELO IS BETTER THEN OUR TEAM !

No he isn't. Melo is overrated and has been his entire career. He has been outplayed by Allen Iverson at the age of 32 and only made it to the conference finals once....as the third best player on his team behind Billups and Nene. It is no wonder that DEN built a better team with a bunch of non all-stars than a glorified mediocre scorer who doesn't play defense.

you could only dream to have a melo on the raptors.

Only if I'm dreaming of a future treadmill.

[TheRealBlizzy]

No he isn't. Melo is overrated and has been his entire career. He has been outplayed by Allen Iverson at the age of 32 and only made it to the conference finals once....as the third best player on his team behind Billups and Nene. It is no wonder that DEN built a better team with a bunch of non all-stars than a glorified mediocre scorer who doesn't play defense.

you could only dream to have a melo on the raptors.

Only if I'm dreaming of a future treadmill.

but rudy gay is a better option at the 3? you wouldn't swap rudy for melo?

[StMikes31]

No he isn't. Melo is overrated and has been his entire career. He has been outplayed by Allen Iverson at the age of 32 and only made it to the conference finals once....as the third best player on his team behind Billups and Nene. It is no wonder that DEN built a better team with a bunch of non all-stars than a glorified mediocre scorer who doesn't play defense.

you could only dream to have a melo on the raptors.

Only if I'm dreaming of a future treadmill.

I wonder what you think of Demar and Gay then.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Tell that to Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, OKC who all used tanking as a tool in order to take a significant step to become a contender. And take a good look at what ORL is doing right now - they are making smart, sound decisions with their picks and are just stock piling assets like any re-building team should do.

I should say that Boston used the pick to acquire Ray Allen which ultimately led them to the championship. And again, you still think tanking is just for selecting top guys. That has a big part of it but it also allows you to get a premium asset in a draft pick in which you can use it in a trade in order to acquire that star on the rise or star. That's what you're not getting. Enough of your Al Horford infatuation, imagine next year we get a top 5 pick and SAC decides it's time to move on from Demarcus and we somehow get him in a package including the pick - do you really think the pro tankers would oppose a trade like that?

Your re-tool is a **** joke and doesn't even make sense. Notice how the previous GM got fired because that's what he did every year for 7 years.

Literally none of the teams you mentioned except OKC gave away their players so they could suck the year they drafted their stars, and even OKC didnt do it the year they drafted Durant, they just had a down year due to injuries. Of the other contending teams, IND, CHI, LAC, DEN, BKN, HOU didnt throw their players to the trash so they could suck either. Memphis tried to, their reward? Hasheem Thabeet. They became a contender through smart trades and signings, not tanking "OKC style".

You talk about "real" fans, then want to follow the OKC model? You mean the same model that ruined a storied franchise so their owner could move the team out of town?

GTFO of this thread tank troll.

We just had this conversation 2 days ago.

All of those teams re-built their franchise using tanking as a big tool. There is nothing else to argue. It's fact.

And you do know that Lowry and Gay can be done at the end of the year right? So you instead want to keep these guys to walk instead of getting value for them? That makes total sense. And no you're not going to trade these guys for young and up and coming studs.

the only fact here is the fact that you still dont know whatchu talkin 'bout.

Take a look at the season predictions for all the teams you listed, the exact year they acquired their superstars:

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... 05535.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... tml?cat=14

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/39021 ... redictions

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... i_preview/

They were all expected to be 7-11 fringe playoff "treadmill teams" with the exception of the Spurs who were expected to be contenders until Robinson got injured. Thats called a fact.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

Maybe this time you will learn something from my schooling, so we dont have to have this convo another two days from now.

[StMikes31]

Literally none of the teams you mentioned except OKC gave away their players so they could suck the year they drafted their stars, and even OKC didnt do it the year they drafted Durant, they just had a down year due to injuries. Of the other contending teams, IND, CHI, LAC, DEN, BKN, HOU didnt throw their players to the trash so they could suck either. Memphis tried to, their reward? Hasheem Thabeet. They became a contender through smart trades and signings, not tanking "OKC style".

You talk about "real" fans, then want to follow the OKC model? You mean the same model that ruined a storied franchise so their owner could move the team out of town?

GTFO of this thread tank troll.

We just had this conversation 2 days ago.

All of those teams re-built their franchise using tanking as a big tool. There is nothing else to argue. It's fact.

And you do know that Lowry and Gay can be done at the end of the year right? So you instead want to keep these guys to walk instead of getting value for them? That makes total sense. And no you're not going to trade these guys for young and up and coming studs.

the only fact here is the fact that you still dont know whatchu talkin 'bout.

Take a look at the season predictions for all the teams you listed, the exact year they acquired their superstars:

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... 05535.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... tml?cat=14

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/39021 ... redictions

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... i_preview/

They were all expected to be 7-11 fringe playoff "treadmill teams" with the exception of the Spurs who were expected to be contenders until Robinson got injured. Thats called a fact.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

Maybe this time you will learn something from my schooling, so we dont have to have this convo another two days from now.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

That's been everyone's stance, including mine. No one liked the garbage DET offered us.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

Was Demar traded for Bledsoe? No. Instead the Clippers reportedly wanted Bargnani. That should tell you something about your boy Demar. Bargnani got traded for a first rounder in 2 years plus 2 late 2nd picks. That doesn't scream 'crazy' value. It was a good deal and those picks are all assets but they aren't team changing by any means. Calderon? I've said he's been the most underrated player since everyone on this board likes to shi* on him. Where the F*** are you going with this?

None of us have been saying to dump these guys for nothing. We know they have value but again we aren't going to get up and coming studs. What world are you living in? You think San Antonio would deal Leonard for Gay? No they wouldn't and any other rising star player because Gay has an opt out at the end of next season. You aren't going to get deals like that unless you start throwing in picks.

I'm not even sure what you're rambling about and I'm not surprised because that's all you do on this board.

Keep discrediting that all those teams I listed tanked at some point in order to build their winning teams. Stop wasting people's time.

[dballislife]

and1

[Pseudonym]

LOL @ calling Melo a mediocre scorer.

His TS% isn't on the level of James Harden, LeBron James, Chris Paul, or Kevin Durant who are real franchise players.

C'mon son. Melo had literally the highest usage rate in the league, at an insane 35.6%. Lebron's was at 30%, CP3 at a paltry 22.6%, Harden at 29%, and Durant at 29.8%. That is why his TS% is lower; doing otherwise (bringing it up to the guys you mentioned while keeping usage stagnant) literally brings his production to about MJ levels... IN HIS PRIME! LeBron's never reached that level of usage, and that extra 3% at his highest is a huge difference. Durant and Harden's efficiency would totally plummet if they were to reach Melo's level. CP3 would become useless too.

Micheal Jordan's average usage throughout his career? 35.6%. If you want to say that Melo scoring 29 point a game on a TS% of .560, with an offensive rating of 112 makes him a glorified mediocre scorer...Then, idk what you wanna do with Rudy and DeMar. I have no idea what you want to do period, because calling Melo a mediocre scorer is totally devoid of rationality.

[dballislife]

look at bucks, hawks, bobcats, det, cavs, NO, sac...all great opportunities to tank but all working to get players and make team better, its only human nature, in a competitive sport, all guys wanna compete and win...and more importantly, it may not be whats best for u, but its always the right thing to do, to try getting better and better

not saying that losing is never out of the question, but u gotta try so so so hard and do everything possible before u settle for that, its the easy/cowardly/non creative/non imaginative way out...u no deep down inside, the owners, management, players, and fans are disappointed that they have to try to limit and weaken a team instead of making it better...u never want to settle for that

there are more creative, imaginative, innovative ways to do things...its just a lot harder, like a lot harder and the losers who dont wanna work hard settle for losing...thats why u need great ownership and management people...what if a team tanks one or two or more years, builds a young nucleus, in 4-6 years its not good enough, wut u tank again? what if its not good enough in 10 years or 20, u tank again.....u never even want to have that word, like the idea of losing around ur team ever, imo its always better for a franchise to never even consider tanking, in the long run ur always gonna achieve more i think

[DatBoiCapspace]

We just had this conversation 2 days ago.

All of those teams re-built their franchise using tanking as a big tool. There is nothing else to argue. It's fact.

And you do know that Lowry and Gay can be done at the end of the year right? So you instead want to keep these guys to walk instead of getting value for them? That makes total sense. And no you're not going to trade these guys for young and up and coming studs.

the only fact here is the fact that you still dont know whatchu talkin 'bout.

Take a look at the season predictions for all the teams you listed, the exact year they acquired their superstars:

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... 05535.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... tml?cat=14

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/39021 ... redictions

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... i_preview/

They were all expected to be 7-11 fringe playoff "treadmill teams" with the exception of the Spurs who were expected to be contenders until Robinson got injured. Thats called a fact.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

Maybe this time you will learn something from my schooling, so we dont have to have this convo another two days from now.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

That's been everyone's stance, including mine. No one liked the garbage DET offered us.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

blahhhhh arrrghhh/rant

You said all those teams tanked. I showed you those teams started the year like us, thats a fact. So were better off keeping our players then trading them if we dont get good value in return, which is the whole point of this thread.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

And Demars not my boy lol I have no problem with trading him, just think he has more value then RealGM gives him credit for. As an example, RealGM were way off on Calderon and Bargnanis value.

[bballsparkin]

Did I make the OP out of crake cocaine? The tank trolls just can't help themselves to post in this forum.

If its true, that there are now so many good teams like Clev, and Wiz in our division that we have no chance to make the playoffs, then we will have tanked anyways. I think that all us anti-tankers will agree than if by a certain point the team is looking disastrous, then perhaps MU makes a few adjustments to ensure that we don't have a late run. That would be a good time to trade Rudy because by then, he would have much less contract left and might be more attractive.

If you could make OP's out of crack cocaine there would be many monitors out there licked clean. Those that weren't burnt. On a serious note, you may be right, that's what MU may do. None of us really know. I see merits in both options. I'd rather sell of at least two of Gay/Lowry/DD now. But that might not net a good return and if so I endorse hanging on to said players for the moment. It's better to give them a shot than dump them for nothing.

Career 25ppg 6.1 rpg 3.1 apg player on 46% fg 34% 3pt and 81% ft ... over 10 straight years.

Last yr he avg'd 29 ppg with 45% fg and 38% 3pt ... what is going on with this fan base.

A couple posts hardly represents a fan base.

[bballsparkin]

Melo has proven that he is nothing but a mediocre scorer who cannot play defense or pass the ball. Bosh has proven that he is a wuss. Sure a JV Bosh duo sounds nice on paper, but it is still a treadmill squad which is what pro tankers are trying to avoid in the first place.

The draft has proven one thing: If you are a tanking team and you missed out on a franchise player, then you have lost the draft end of story. I don't want to hear how our less hyped 2014 prospect is on the same talent level as Andrew Wiggins. That would be a failure that not even BC could weasel his way out of.

Players like Melo and Bosh are a good start. Although not true franchise players they have elite talent. They can be flipped for good assets or attract good players. What exactly is your stance? Judging by your trades in the trade thread, matched with your comments that I recall, I would guess aiming high for the top pick. I'm not against this but the odds aren't great. Aiming for a truly generational player could take years. It involve a lot of luck. I'm fine aiming for a top six next year. If MU gets decent future assets for Raptor players I say do it. I'm not aiming for the trophy. My Canucks have been way better than the Raptors have ever been close to. In the NHL a league with more parity, and yet still no cup. Close but no cigar. The Raptors may never go all the way. And are incredibly unlikely anytime soon. I want a team that can be a dark horse at this junction in time. A team like the Jazz have been would suit me just fine. Of course as a fan you want your team to be a champion but reality is a b*tch too.

[bballsparkin]

look at bucks, hawks, bobcats, det, cavs, NO, sac...all great opportunities to tank but all working to get players and make team better, its only human nature, in a competitive sport, all guys wanna compete and win...and more importantly, it may not be whats best for u, but its always the right thing to do, to try getting better and better

not saying that losing is never out of the question, but u gotta try so so so hard and do everything possible before u settle for that, its the easy/cowardly/non creative/non imaginative way out...u no deep down inside, the owners, management, players, and fans are disappointed that they have to try to limit and weaken a team instead of making it better...u never want to settle for that

there are more creative, imaginative, innovative ways to do things...its just a lot harder, like a lot harder and the losers who dont wanna work hard settle for losing...thats why u need great ownership and management people...what if a team tanks one or two or more years, builds a young nucleus, in 4-6 years its not good enough, wut u tank again? what if its not good enough in 10 years or 20, u tank again.....u never even want to have that word, like the idea of losing around ur team ever, imo its always better for a franchise to never even consider tanking, in the long run ur always gonna achieve more i think

If I'm not mistaken, the "bucks, hawks, bobcats, det, cavs, NO, sac", all aside from CLE have attendance problems and are teams that need to make money. The Cavs have collected assets and may be aiming to be players in 2014. Plus the organization has shown a willingness to take the bull by the horn to tank once playoffs are out of the picture. It depends in what we as a fan think the Raptors have to offer compared to what the seemingly top heavy draft of 2014 offers.

In professional sports sometimes taking a step back is really what makes a team better. Especially in a league like the NBA.

[Anatomize]

I support the anti-tank.

[hillbilly hare]

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

It's "what have done for me lately". The guys I listed, from this year's teams, are the guys I called "superstars", a rough, relative term that I'd call "game changers", guys the other team has to plan for at both ends of the floor. You get 2 of those guys and that makes it more than twice as difficult for the other team to plan against, as it grows exponentially. All of those guys, apart from David Lee, are those kinds of game changers. I would trade everyone on the team for one of the younger guys (Harden, George, Griffin, etc.) to play alongside Jonas and build for the future.

I thought you were pro tank? That wouldnt be a tank move, that would be a treadmill move probably giving us a 7-11 record this year.

It would be Step 1 to building a real contender. Nobody said you had to do it all in one trade or one off-season. The Rockets did it in a two step process and so did the Clippers. The Rockets used their so-so trade assets (ours were better last year) to get Harden and then used their skillfully maneuvered cap space to sign Dwight. The Clippers got Griffin thru the draft and Paul via trade, though in his case it really was a classic ton-of-assets for a superstar trade.

But seriously, if we somehow managed to trade everyone not named Jonas on the team for a young talent like Harden or George, then drafted in the top 5 next draft, we would be well on our way. Crucial point being: you must accumulate the assets needed to get a superstar, and those assets are, once again, first round picks, young prospects and cap space, in the form of pure cap space or even a big expiring contract.

I am advocating all of this precisely because, and only because, we do not have any All-star talent on this team. The only current player with All-star potential (always a difficult word to use) is Jonas. Hence I am for building with him as a core piece in a potential contending team. All of the other guys, however good or less good they are, do not, in my opinion, have All-star potential, let alone game-changing potential.

[hillbilly hare]

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

Both would also be players worth tanking for as well. When our team is not only capped out without an all-star player, but haven't won more than 40 games in the last couple years... yeah, you need talent, even if it isn't of the James/Durant/Wiggins caliber.

You dont get talent by giving away talent. If you give away all your talent in hopes of drafting great talent, you will need a James/Durant caliber to make up for it. Bosh/Aldridge wont cut it. Or did you forget the last 10 years of the NBA?

That is so wrong I don't know where to begin.

Of the 15 guys on last year's All-NBA teams (not to go too far back in history), 6 of them changed teams via trades. Teams "gave away talent" and got SUPERIOR talent in return.

[Sn0wman]

F*** yo thread.

This. No point in chasing 9th and no point in getting swept in playoffs.