The Tank Debate Thread

[Tdot24]

What's next, a "FIRE MU" thread?

Some of you will never be happy with anything that happens to this team. New GM, "Oh he doesn't know how to tank"... Signs defensive minded forward, "He's not what this team needs"... lol

I haven't heard any of us tankers really complain yet. For most of us he's already earned our trust with getting a great return for Andrea. It was the best trade this organization has seen in years and it was only his first! I hope he tanks hard, but I certainly don't want him throwing away assets. If he believed he could get a better deal for Rudy as an expiring next year rather than this year I'd support the wait. We'd just need to trade Lowry for a pick and start a worse point guard. We'd still finish with a crappy record.

Things you can only hope for, right? I honestly am very excited to see how this team does this coming season. I'm sure Masai really wants to observe from within and really see who his real assets are. Could be Gay, could be Demar. I'd opt for Gay to be traded, as Demar has more time to grow and really seems to step up every season. He's by no means a franchise player, but a solid role player.

[Raps in 4]

All you tankers were crying about giving up the 1st for Lowry but what the hell did OKC get with that 12th pick?

Maybe a 8th man rotation player if everything goes well? You can get that for the vet minimum or bi-annual exception every summer.

That's easy to say in hindsight, but the way last season started, it looked like it could have easily ended up being a top-5 pick (yes, I know it was top-3 protected). I liked the Lowry trade when it happened, but after our putrid start to the season, it was natural for people to panic.

[Reignman]

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

Not true.

Even guys who are just average starters or rotation players can be important to get via the draft. You get the player on a cheaper contract initially including for seasons where they may actuially be productive above their contract value. You also get them for enough time to get to know each other to see if it's a good fit. You have a better idea of what you are then re-signing, and they have a reason to consider re-signing with you without forcing you to overpay for them. This can help create team stability and having a decent player for a long time can be good for the fanbase.

And you talk about "building a team better than the one above via tanking" but what you also miss is that by giving up the additional first round picks you had better make sure that what you are building now is good enough to be a contender. If it isn't then you have mortgaged the future to really not get anything great now, and so what's the point?

Since we are counting on JV, the time for cashing in other assets to go into a win-now mode should probably wait until he's actually ready to be an important piece. That's why it was potentially foolish to cash in a 1st round pick for Lowry (unless we were certain that we would be keeping him long-term), and that's why it's likely foolish to cash in so many future assets to be better for the next couple of years when a cornerstone of what you are relying on isn't ready yet.

The problem is, if you're not a destination city in the NBA the odds of you building a contender are practically none.

If the premise is championship or bust, you might as well pick a new team. The odds of us seeing a contender here is very slim (hitting the lottery, drafting a top 5 type and then putting the necessary pieces around him).

I'm much more realistic, for a team that's been in the league for 18 years we have absolutely no sustained history of being a team that wins more than it loses. We've been a perennial lottery team as far as I'm concerned.

Teams like that rarely get any love during free agency or with trades for superstars (where the superstar dictates where he wants to go, see KG/Bos).

If you want to be a true contender, you have to start gaining some credibility with free agents because if you don't, you have practically no shot.

In a perfect world, MU can build a perennial playoff team here (like the Hawks) for the next few years. Then hopefully we have the attention of FAs and/or some of these Canadian kids really break out and when their free agency comes up they look at T.O. as a legit option.

But make no bones about it, if this team tanks it up for the next few years, even those Canadian kids might have hard time coming here if they are as good as advertised. Nobody that has a competitive bone in their body wants to play for a loser.

[Reignman]

All you tankers were crying about giving up the 1st for Lowry but what the hell did OKC get with that 12th pick?

Maybe a 8th man rotation player if everything goes well? You can get that for the vet minimum or bi-annual exception every summer.

That's easy to say in hindsight, but the way last season started, it looked like it could have easily ended up being a top-5 pick (yes, I know it was top-3 protected). I liked the Lowry trade when it happened, but after our putrid start to the season, it was natural for people to panic.

The minute we made that trade it was pretty realistic to see this team well outside of the top 5. Maybe you're just not good at projecting. I never panicked. And then once we traded for Gay I was smiling because not only did we get a fair deal, we ended up getting a steal.

That 12th pick will never sniff Lowry's jock.

[Raps in 4]

If you want to be a true contender, you have to start gaining some credibility with free agents because if you don't, you have practically no shot.

LAC went from worst team in NBA history to contender overnight.

[Reignman]

Wiggins. Done.

Shabazz. Done.

LOL, crystal ball analytics doesn't mean much to me.

I love Wiggins but:

1. We have no way to guarantee the top pick in 2014
2. We don't know how Wiggins will even perform in college
3. We don't know how any of these blue chip prospects will look a year from now
4. Even if they look decent in college, who knows how they will look 3, 4, 5 years down the road
5. Even if Wiggins is the real deal, he's not winning jack on his own and we don't even know how JV will look let alone thinking that's enough

The further we down the road we go the murkier and murkier it gets. Unfortunately "Wiggins. Done" doesn't carry much weight in the real world.

Right. But a 34 win team will catapult itself to contender-ship through Instagram group photoshoots in Vegas. Who's using magical thinking here?

You are. I've never suggested this team will be a contender. I'm hoping this team makes it into the playoffs next season and then through internal development, trades, smart signings and great drafting MU can take us to a mid-level playoff team that can get there perennially.

I'd be content with that for the next few years. Then once the team has exhausted their ceiling they can go in a completely different direction if they choose to do so.

[Reignman]

I'm happy you're not the GM.

Seriously, are you Bryan Colangelo?

The fact that you believe you'll have a team better than that via tanking is everything I need to know about you and your knowledge.

The fact that a similar team in Atlanta had a very similar ceiling and only hit seeds 6-8 tells me all I need to know about you.

Listen, you're a fake fan and that's fine. You want to keep on that treadmill just to watch this team win a few games and get knocked out of the playoffs every year with no actual shot at a championship. I get your prerogative and that's cool but don't come crying on this board when this team gets dismantled within the year.

Heh, if I'm a fake fan what does that make you?

You want to see a loser. That's the kind've fan you are.

[Raps in 4]

You are. I've never suggested this team will be a contender. I'm hoping this team makes it into the playoffs next season and then through internal development, trades, smart signings and great drafting MU can take us to a mid-level playoff team that can get there perennially.

I'd be content with that for the next few years. Then once the team has exhausted their ceiling they can go in a completely different direction if they choose to do so.

And what exactly is the point of that? You're just delaying the inevitable and potentially wasting Jonas' prime years.

[Reignman]

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

It's actually gotten humorous reading your posts now. All I'm gonna say is guess how many rounds the following core made it in the playoffs:

Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Horford

That's a better one than the Raptors team you made.

I'm just putting that guy on ignore. Anyone who would offer that many picks for Horford isn't worth paying attention to.

Right, try watching some NBA ball. Horford is a very very good player.

But yeah yeah, I know, with those 3 picks you'll get players like LBJ/Wade/Bosh and you'll win not 1, not 2, not 3..............

Congrats, you've figured it all out!

[Raps in 4]

The fact that you believe you'll have a team better than that via tanking is everything I need to know about you and your knowledge.

The fact that a similar team in Atlanta had a very similar ceiling and only hit seeds 6-8 tells me all I need to know about you.

Listen, you're a fake fan and that's fine. You want to keep on that treadmill just to watch this team win a few games and get knocked out of the playoffs every year with no actual shot at a championship. I get your prerogative and that's cool but don't come crying on this board when this team gets dismantled within the year.

Heh, if I'm a fake fan what does that make you?

You want to see a loser. That's the kind've fan you are.

Wanting to see a championship is wanting to see a loser?

[StMikes31]

The fact that you believe you'll have a team better than that via tanking is everything I need to know about you and your knowledge.

The fact that a similar team in Atlanta had a very similar ceiling and only hit seeds 6-8 tells me all I need to know about you.

Listen, you're a fake fan and that's fine. You want to keep on that treadmill just to watch this team win a few games and get knocked out of the playoffs every year with no actual shot at a championship. I get your prerogative and that's cool but don't come crying on this board when this team gets dismantled within the year.

Heh, if I'm a fake fan what does that make you?

You want to see a loser. That's the kind've fan you are.

I'm looking at the big picture and not being selfish just because I want to see a team possibly win 40 games and only for 2 years might I add. This board is brain dead.

Keep dreaming of Horford being traded for future 1sts though

[Reignman]

You are. I've never suggested this team will be a contender. I'm hoping this team makes it into the playoffs next season and then through internal development, trades, smart signings and great drafting MU can take us to a mid-level playoff team that can get there perennially.

I'd be content with that for the next few years. Then once the team has exhausted their ceiling they can go in a completely different direction if they choose to do so.

And what exactly is the point of that? You're just delaying the inevitable and potentially wasting Jonas' prime years.

Entertainment for the paying fans? Isn't that what pro-sports is all about?

Every year only 1 team wins the O'Brien. Does that mean the fanbases of 29 other teams should want to go kill themselves?

Were Memphis fans proud of their team for getting to the WCF or are they sitting there crying because everyone knows they'll never win a ring with that roster?

What about GSW and Den getting back in? They got bounced in the 1st/2nd round and neither team is championship calibre, should those fans go sulk in the corner because their team will never be as good as MIA?

I could go on and on. If seeing a championship is all that matters to you then I feel sorry for you because the odds are you won't get to see one in the near future. In fact, considering it's the NBA, you'll be lucky to see one in your lifetime. I'd much rather enjoy my favourite sport than cry over something that's very unlikely to happen.

To each his own.

[StMikes31]

You are. I've never suggested this team will be a contender. I'm hoping this team makes it into the playoffs next season and then through internal development, trades, smart signings and great drafting MU can take us to a mid-level playoff team that can get there perennially.

I'd be content with that for the next few years. Then once the team has exhausted their ceiling they can go in a completely different direction if they choose to do so.

And what exactly is the point of that? You're just delaying the inevitable and potentially wasting Jonas' prime years.

Entertainment for the paying fans? Isn't that what pro-sports is all about?

Every year only 1 team wins the O'Brien. Does that mean the fanbases of 29 other teams should want to go kill themselves?

Were Memphis fans proud of their team for getting to the WCF or are they sitting there crying because everyone knows they'll never win a ring with that roster?

What about GSW and Den getting back in? They got bounced in the 1st/2nd round and neither team is championship calibre, should those fans go sulk in the corner because their team will never be as good as MIA?

I could go on and on. If seeing a championship is all that matters to you then I feel sorry for you because the odds are you won't get to see one in the near future. In fact, considering it's the NBA, you'll be lucky to see one in your lifetime. I'd much rather enjoy my favourite sport than cry over something that's very unlikely to happen.

To each his own.

OMG. So what the f*** is the point of watching this team then knowing they aren't going to win a title?

I know the last 18 years have been brutal but f*** man, have some hope. Look at all the changes (owners, CEO, GM), this clearly isn't the same garbage we have seen before in this organization.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be apart of something that is being built half A**. You really think after all the championship talk from Masai and Tim that they are just going to build this thing as just a playoff team and nothing more, even though Masai specifically mentioned that's not the goal?

It's not our fault you spent money on season's tickets. What so now the rest of us have to suffer just because of your poor investment? STH shouldn't be allowed to post anymore, this is just stupid.

[Raps in 4]

You are. I've never suggested this team will be a contender. I'm hoping this team makes it into the playoffs next season and then through internal development, trades, smart signings and great drafting MU can take us to a mid-level playoff team that can get there perennially.

I'd be content with that for the next few years. Then once the team has exhausted their ceiling they can go in a completely different direction if they choose to do so.

And what exactly is the point of that? You're just delaying the inevitable and potentially wasting Jonas' prime years.

Entertainment for the paying fans? Isn't that what pro-sports is all about?

Every year only 1 team wins the O'Brien. Does that mean the fanbases of 29 other teams should want to go kill themselves?

Why 29 fanbases? There is more than one contender each year.

Miami, SAS, LAC, OKC, and next season, Houston, are all legitimate title contenders. Memphis is also right on the cusp (they need a lot of things to go right, but they can definitely make it to the finals and push a team like Miami around).

That list of contenders has changed many times over the last decade to include dozens of different teams. I want the Raptors to be one of those teams. Even if they don't win a championship, I at least want to see them compete for one.

[Hot Water]

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

Not true.

Even guys who are just average starters or rotation players can be important to get via the draft. You get the player on a cheaper contract initially including for seasons where they may actuially be productive above their contract value. You also get them for enough time to get to know each other to see if it's a good fit. You have a better idea of what you are then re-signing, and they have a reason to consider re-signing with you without forcing you to overpay for them. This can help create team stability and having a decent player for a long time can be good for the fanbase.

And you talk about "building a team better than the one above via tanking" but what you also miss is that by giving up the additional first round picks you had better make sure that what you are building now is good enough to be a contender. If it isn't then you have mortgaged the future to really not get anything great now, and so what's the point?

Since we are counting on JV, the time for cashing in other assets to go into a win-now mode should probably wait until he's actually ready to be an important piece. That's why it was potentially foolish to cash in a 1st round pick for Lowry (unless we were certain that we would be keeping him long-term), and that's why it's likely foolish to cash in so many future assets to be better for the next couple of years when a cornerstone of what you are relying on isn't ready yet.

The problem is, if you're not a destination city in the NBA the odds of you building a contender are practically none.

If the premise is championship or bust, you might as well pick a new team. The odds of us seeing a contender here is very slim (hitting the lottery, drafting a top 5 type and then putting the necessary pieces around him).

I'm much more realistic, for a team that's been in the league for 18 years we have absolutely no sustained history of being a team that wins more than it loses. We've been a perennial lottery team as far as I'm concerned.

Teams like that rarely get any love during free agency or with trades for superstars (where the superstar dictates where he wants to go, see KG/Bos).

If you want to be a true contender, you have to start gaining some credibility with free agents because if you don't, you have practically no shot.

In a perfect world, MU can build a perennial playoff team here (like the Hawks) for the next few years. Then hopefully we have the attention of FAs and/or some of these Canadian kids really break out and when their free agency comes up they look at T.O. as a legit option.

But make no bones about it, if this team tanks it up for the next few years, even those Canadian kids might have hard time coming here if they are as good as advertised. Nobody that has a competitive bone in their body wants to play for a loser.

You're practically admitting that you want a treadmill team.

And really, if that's what you want out of your experience as a fan of the Raptors, that's fine.
But stop trying to debate what the best way to turn this team into a championship contender when it's clear that your argument is through the lens of someone who is happy with the team being a first/second round playoff exit.
It's like you're trying to force everyone else to be satisfied with that too.

[Raps in 4]

You're practically admitting that you want a treadmill team.

That actually is what he wants.

[Reignman]

The fact that a similar team in Atlanta had a very similar ceiling and only hit seeds 6-8 tells me all I need to know about you.

Listen, you're a fake fan and that's fine. You want to keep on that treadmill just to watch this team win a few games and get knocked out of the playoffs every year with no actual shot at a championship. I get your prerogative and that's cool but don't come crying on this board when this team gets dismantled within the year.

Heh, if I'm a fake fan what does that make you?

You want to see a loser. That's the kind've fan you are.

Wanting to see a championship is wanting to see a loser?

Wanting to see a loser tanking team for years on end in the unlikely event of ever seeing a championship.

[Reignman]

And what exactly is the point of that? You're just delaying the inevitable and potentially wasting Jonas' prime years.

Entertainment for the paying fans? Isn't that what pro-sports is all about?

Every year only 1 team wins the O'Brien. Does that mean the fanbases of 29 other teams should want to go kill themselves?

Were Memphis fans proud of their team for getting to the WCF or are they sitting there crying because everyone knows they'll never win a ring with that roster?

What about GSW and Den getting back in? They got bounced in the 1st/2nd round and neither team is championship calibre, should those fans go sulk in the corner because their team will never be as good as MIA?

I could go on and on. If seeing a championship is all that matters to you then I feel sorry for you because the odds are you won't get to see one in the near future. In fact, considering it's the NBA, you'll be lucky to see one in your lifetime. I'd much rather enjoy my favourite sport than cry over something that's very unlikely to happen.

To each his own.

OMG. So what the f*** is the point of watching this team then knowing they aren't going to win a title?

I know the last 18 years have been brutal but f*** man, have some hope. Look at all the changes (owners, CEO, GM), this clearly isn't the same garbage we have seen before in this organization.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be apart of something that is being built half A**. You really think after all the championship talk from Masai and Tim that they are just going to build this thing as just a playoff team and nothing more, even though Masai specifically mentioned that's not the goal?

Well, I actually enjoy basketball, not just championships. I played it through high school and university and still play pick up with my previous teammates. I genuinely love basketball. As an example, I loved watching our games against the Pacers and Knicks during the regular season. We played well in all of those games even though we all knew the Pacers/Knicks were going to make the playoffs and we were likely not to last season.

It was fun. I loved watching the expansion Raps beat the 72 win Bulls at the Skydome. It didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, we sucked and they were the greatest team ever assembled but that memory will stick with me for the rest of my life.

I loved watching VC go toe-to-toe with A.I. in the 2nd round even though neither team was a true contender.

I loved watching that 02 team come together at the end of the season (after VC went down) to win 12/14 to get us in the playoffs. We were all down about VC's injury but watching that team come together made me proud to be a fan of this team.

Seeing the 06 team come together when Bosh went down and winning games on the west coast and then going on to win the division for the 1st time. We got bounced in the 1st round but that was an exciting season.

The problem is that those great memories have been too far apart. I want more of those memories and that's why I want a perennial playoff team for once in this franchise's history.

Don't get me wrong, a championship would be awesome and I can only imagine how hard I would be partying downtown if it did happen but I'm just not willing to sacrifice all the good memories we could have for the faint chance of doing the unlikely.

[StMikes31]

Entertainment for the paying fans? Isn't that what pro-sports is all about?

Every year only 1 team wins the O'Brien. Does that mean the fanbases of 29 other teams should want to go kill themselves?

Were Memphis fans proud of their team for getting to the WCF or are they sitting there crying because everyone knows they'll never win a ring with that roster?

What about GSW and Den getting back in? They got bounced in the 1st/2nd round and neither team is championship calibre, should those fans go sulk in the corner because their team will never be as good as MIA?

I could go on and on. If seeing a championship is all that matters to you then I feel sorry for you because the odds are you won't get to see one in the near future. In fact, considering it's the NBA, you'll be lucky to see one in your lifetime. I'd much rather enjoy my favourite sport than cry over something that's very unlikely to happen.

To each his own.

OMG. So what the f*** is the point of watching this team then knowing they aren't going to win a title?

I know the last 18 years have been brutal but f*** man, have some hope. Look at all the changes (owners, CEO, GM), this clearly isn't the same garbage we have seen before in this organization.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be apart of something that is being built half A**. You really think after all the championship talk from Masai and Tim that they are just going to build this thing as just a playoff team and nothing more, even though Masai specifically mentioned that's not the goal?

Well, I actually enjoy basketball, not just championships. I played it through high school and university and still play pick up with my previous teammates. I genuinely love basketball. As an example, I loved watching our games against the Pacers and Knicks during the regular season. We played well in all of those games even though we all knew the Pacers/Knicks were going to make the playoffs and we were likely not to last season.

It was fun. I loved watching the expansion Raps beat the 72 win Bulls at the Skydome. It didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, we sucked and they were the greatest team ever assembled but that memory will stick with me for the rest of my life.

I loved watching VC go toe-to-toe with A.I. in the 2nd round even though neither team was a true contender.

I loved watching that 02 team come together at the end of the season (after VC went down) to win 12/14 to get us in the playoffs. We were all down about VC's injury but watching that team come together made me proud to be a fan of this team.

Seeing the 06 team come together when Bosh went down and winning games on the west coast and then going on to win the division for the 1st time. We got bounced in the 1st round but that was an exciting season.

The problem is that those great memories have been too far apart. I want more of those memories and that's why I want a perennial playoff team for once in this franchise's history.

Don't get me wrong, a championship would be awesome and I can only imagine how hard I would be partying downtown if it did happen but I'm just not willing to sacrifice all the good memories we could have for the faint chance of doing the unlikely.

Dude we are all f***** upset and tarnished at what happend to this team from the beginning. That doesn't mean we should settle for mediocrity, it should actually give us more incentive to push even harder and get this thing on track.

With Masai and Tim at the helm along with the new owners, all points of show that this organization took a 180 and are actually going to build this thing the right way and not half a**.

Just give it a chance, it's not like we are tearing apart Indiana's core. We project to be a 8-12 this year, so who gives a shi* if we trade Demar and Rudy? They haven't done ANYTHING.

[Reignman]

You're practically admitting that you want a treadmill team.

That actually is what he wants.

If a perennial playoff team like the Hawks is a treadmill team then yes, that is what I want. Isn't that better than a pie-in-sky hope that will likely never come to fruition?

Which fanbase had the better season last year, the Bobcats or the Nuggets? Looking at their attendance numbers it didn't look like the Bobcat fans enjoyed their season very much even though they had the hope of a championship by doing what they did.