The Tank Debate Thread

[Hot Water]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

The team doesn't have any cap flexibility in 1-2 years unless they let Lowry, Gay and Amir walk. That's a fact.

If that is your plan (to let them expire and move on to other teams) then why are you so adamant about keeping them around now just to make a desperate run at the last playoff spot? Why not trade them now and get something tangible back? If you plan on keeping them all around then we won't have any cap flexibility or a high draft pick for the next 4-5 years. We will be smack dab in the middle of no man's land.

You really think this franchise will be in better shape if we lose those guys for nothing when they hit free agency? You honestly believe that free agents will be lined up in Toronto to take their places because we got the 8th seed this year and the 7th seed the year after that? Good grief, you're slipping farther and farther into the delusional side.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

The team doesn't have any cap flexibility in 1-2 years unless they let Lowry, Gay and Amir walk. That's a fact.

If that is your plan (to let them expire and move on to other teams) then why are you so adamant about keeping them around now just to make a desperate run at the last playoff spot? Why not trade them now and get something tangible back? Not only do

You really think this franchise will be in better shape if we lose those guys for nothing when they hit free agency? You honestly believe that free agents will be lined up in Toronto to take their places because we got the 8th seed this year and the 7th seed the year after that? Good grief, you're slipping farther and farther into the delusional side.

They have no plan outside of making the playoffs this year... none what so ever. They put like $10,000 into Season Seats and want to get a few playoff games out of it. That is all.

[akakalakin]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

The team doesn't have any cap flexibility in 1-2 years unless they let Lowry, Gay and Amir walk. That's a fact.

If that is your plan (to let them expire and move on to other teams) then why are you so adamant about keeping them around now just to make a desperate run at the last playoff spot? Why not trade them now and get something tangible back? Not only do

You really think this franchise will be in better shape if we lose those guys for nothing when they hit free agency? You honestly believe that free agents will be lined up in Toronto to take their places because we got the 8th seed this year and the 7th seed the year after that? Good grief, you're slipping farther and farther into the delusional side.

7-10 more years of tanking just doesn't cut it

[Hot Water]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

The team doesn't have any cap flexibility in 1-2 years unless they let Lowry, Gay and Amir walk. That's a fact.

If that is your plan (to let them expire and move on to other teams) then why are you so adamant about keeping them around now just to make a desperate run at the last playoff spot? Why not trade them now and get something tangible back? Not only do

You really think this franchise will be in better shape if we lose those guys for nothing when they hit free agency? You honestly believe that free agents will be lined up in Toronto to take their places because we got the 8th seed this year and the 7th seed the year after that? Good grief, you're slipping farther and farther into the delusional side.

7-10 more years of tanking just doesn't cut it

I have no idea what you mean.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

The team doesn't have any cap flexibility in 1-2 years unless they let Lowry, Gay and Amir walk. That's a fact.

If that is your plan (to let them expire and move on to other teams) then why are you so adamant about keeping them around now just to make a desperate run at the last playoff spot? Why not trade them now and get something tangible back? Not only do

You really think this franchise will be in better shape if we lose those guys for nothing when they hit free agency? You honestly believe that free agents will be lined up in Toronto to take their places because we got the 8th seed this year and the 7th seed the year after that? Good grief, you're slipping farther and farther into the delusional side.

7-10 more years of tanking just doesn't cut it

[ReaLiez]

You tank when you dont have good players on the team

How can people say DD, Gay, JoVa, Amir, Lowry are not quality players...any one of those guys can score 20 any given night (hardest for Amir) and play pretty good team defense (hardest for DD but hes young and thats why you keep him)

Tank when you don't already have talent on the team - we can even add Ross on the list of players with lots of talent

if the team was
Calderon/lucas/Buycks
Fields/Stone
Novak/Fields
Bargs/Acy
Gray/Magloire

then tank away - good chance u get a top 5 pick

but a team that has
Lowry/Buycks
DD/Ross
Gay/Fields/Novak
Amir/Psycho/Acy/Novak
JV/Psycho T

they will win games even if you are trying to tank and you will end up with a 9-14 pick ... I rather may as well just get the 16th pick

[BorisDK1]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.

Gay is part of the Tank Engine, not a passive bystander. I can't see why people fail to comprehend just how brutal he was offensively for us last year. You cannot win with a guy that bad taking anywhere near that much of the team's offense. It cannot happen.

- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.

Let's deal with specificity on our salary cap position.

Assuming no other moves are made in the meantime, and assuming that Rudy Gay picks up his option on his last year (he'd be insane not to) and they pick up the whole $7 million guarantee on Amir instead of waiving him to save $2 million (they'd be insane to do that, too) and they exercise their team option on Valanciunas and Ross, the Raptors will have $57.6 million committed to only 8 players. Now, that can be adjusted down by as much as $1.5 million based on how much of a buyout Camby gets, and if they use the stretch provision on Fields they can save an additional $4 million. So, that brings us to $52 million committed, plus whatever we have for rookie salary that year.

Now, that would leave us with only 7 players on the roster (plus whatever rookies). So, no, next year there's no cap space. And we wouldn't have a starting point guard. And the team doesn't look that good, still.

- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

DeRozan and Gay are not preventing the team from finishing with a poor record. In fact, they're causing it.

If you want to increase the number of losses, it's necessary to sit Lowry, Amir and Jonas as much as possible. Novak, to an extent, as well. DeRozan and Gay are the guys we want with the ball in their hands as much as possible if we want to get close to that 60-loss threshold:

Turnover by turnover,
Clank by clank,
They are the engine
Who power The Tank.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.

Gay is part of the Tank Engine, not a passive bystander. I can't see why people fail to comprehend just how brutal he was offensively for us last year. You cannot win with a guy that bad taking anywhere near that much of the team's offense. It cannot happen.

- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.

Let's deal with specificity on our salary cap position.

Assuming no other moves are made in the meantime, and assuming that Rudy Gay picks up his option on his last year (he'd be insane not to) and they pick up the whole $7 million guarantee on Amir instead of waiving him to save $2 million (they'd be insane to do that, too) and they exercise their team option on Valanciunas and Ross, the Raptors will have $57.6 million committed to only 8 players. Now, that can be adjusted down by as much as $1.5 million based on how much of a buyout Camby gets, and if they use the stretch provision on Fields they can save an additional $4 million. So, that brings us to $52 million committed, plus whatever we have for rookie salary that year.

Now, that would leave us with only 7 players on the roster (plus whatever rookies). So, no, next year there's no cap space. And we wouldn't have a starting point guard. And the team doesn't look that good, still.

- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

DeRozan and Gay are not preventing the team from finishing with a poor record. In fact, they're causing it.

If you want to increase the number of losses, it's necessary to sit Lowry, Amir and Jonas as much as possible. Novak, to an extent, as well. DeRozan and Gay are the guys we want with the ball in their hands as much as possible if we want to get close to that 60-loss threshold:

Turnover by turnover,
Clank by clank,
They are the engine
Who power The Tank.

I hope we just **** roll out our core so the Anti-Tank gets excited as ****, just to watch them crash and burn and finish 11th anyway and support the tank

[akakalakin]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.

Gay is part of the Tank Engine, not a passive bystander. I can't see why people fail to comprehend just how brutal he was offensively for us last year. You cannot win with a guy that bad taking anywhere near that much of the team's offense. It cannot happen.

- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.

Let's deal with specificity on our salary cap position.

Assuming no other moves are made in the meantime, and assuming that Rudy Gay picks up his option on his last year (he'd be insane not to) and they pick up the whole $7 million guarantee on Amir instead of waiving him to save $2 million (they'd be insane to do that, too) and they exercise their team option on Valanciunas and Ross, the Raptors will have $57.6 million committed to only 8 players. Now, that can be adjusted down by as much as $1.5 million based on how much of a buyout Camby gets, and if they use the stretch provision on Fields they can save an additional $4 million. So, that brings us to $52 million committed, plus whatever we have for rookie salary that year.

Now, that would leave us with only 7 players on the roster (plus whatever rookies). So, no, next year there's no cap space. And we wouldn't have a starting point guard. And the team doesn't look that good, still.

- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

DeRozan and Gay are not preventing the team from finishing with a poor record. In fact, they're causing it.

If you want to increase the number of losses, it's necessary to sit Lowry, Amir and Jonas as much as possible. Novak, to an extent, as well. DeRozan and Gay are the guys we want with the ball in their hands as much as possible if we want to get close to that 60-loss threshold:

Turnover by turnover,
Clank by clank,
They are the engine
Who power The Tank.

I support trading Demar because he sucks, a Rudy trade would be welcomed too for value, but the tank hell no- never again- doesn't work.

[akakalakin]

let's focus on the negatives of the SUPPOSED top 6 FRANCHISE ALTERING (utter bull) because you all know the minute we actually get one of these faux alterers that is what happens.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.

Gay is part of the Tank Engine, not a passive bystander. I can't see why people fail to comprehend just how brutal he was offensively for us last year. You cannot win with a guy that bad taking anywhere near that much of the team's offense. It cannot happen.

- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.

Let's deal with specificity on our salary cap position.

Assuming no other moves are made in the meantime, and assuming that Rudy Gay picks up his option on his last year (he'd be insane not to) and they pick up the whole $7 million guarantee on Amir instead of waiving him to save $2 million (they'd be insane to do that, too) and they exercise their team option on Valanciunas and Ross, the Raptors will have $57.6 million committed to only 8 players. Now, that can be adjusted down by as much as $1.5 million based on how much of a buyout Camby gets, and if they use the stretch provision on Fields they can save an additional $4 million. So, that brings us to $52 million committed, plus whatever we have for rookie salary that year.

Now, that would leave us with only 7 players on the roster (plus whatever rookies). So, no, next year there's no cap space. And we wouldn't have a starting point guard. And the team doesn't look that good, still.

- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

DeRozan and Gay are not preventing the team from finishing with a poor record. In fact, they're causing it.

If you want to increase the number of losses, it's necessary to sit Lowry, Amir and Jonas as much as possible. Novak, to an extent, as well. DeRozan and Gay are the guys we want with the ball in their hands as much as possible if we want to get close to that 60-loss threshold:

Turnover by turnover,
Clank by clank,
They are the engine
Who power The Tank.

I support trading Demar because he sucks, a Rudy trade would be welcomed too for value, but the tank hell no- never again- doesn't work.

Im surprised you have ever had a post And 1'd - Nothing you have ever said makes any sense.

[Hot Water]

I support trading Demar because he sucks, a Rudy trade would be welcomed too for value, but the tank hell no- never again- doesn't work.

Have you been reading?
Virtually no one in the thread is saying that we should just give away DD, Gay, Lowry et al. if it isn't the right deal that returns us picks, prospects and flexibility.

[BorisDK1]

I hope we just **** roll out our core so the Anti-Tank gets excited as ****, just to watch them crash and burn and finish 11th anyway and support the tank

Let's not go completely nuts, here.

If Lowry is healthy all year and plays Kyle Lowry ball at a level of what he did the year before last, then we're not going to finish 11th. If that happens, and Valanciunas makes some significant strides defensively, and Novak and Hansbrough come in and do their thing and Ross and Fields both improve a little, maybe the playoffs become realistic. Sure, we'd get embarrassed once we're there, but we might make it.

But that's an awful lot of optimistic "maybes" for a pretty small reward.

[CoachJReturns]

I think it's time to just ignore all the anti-tankers who are extreme and unreasonable in their posts. Same as they should just ignore the few tankers who make any ridiculous suggestions, like gutting the team without receiving assets in return.
Let the rest of us continue the discussion without them. There's enough anti-tank threads that they don't need to come into the tank thread simply to stir up ****. The anti-tank thread should include realistic ways to improve the team in the more immediate future, using the assets we have and the pro-tank thread should be about discussion regarding the best way to tank this upcoming season, while receiving the best assets in return for our "core" players.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I hope we just **** roll out our core so the Anti-Tank gets excited as ****, just to watch them crash and burn and finish 11th anyway and support the tank

Let's not go completely nuts, here.

If Lowry is healthy all year and plays Kyle Lowry ball at a level of what he did the year before last, then we're not going to finish 11th. If that happens, and Valanciunas makes some significant strides defensively, and Novak and Hansbrough come in and do their thing and Ross and Fields both improve a little, maybe the playoffs become realistic. Sure, we'd get embarrassed once we're there, but we might make it.

But that's an awful lot of optimistic "maybes" for a pretty small reward.

Casey has too many defensive prospects hes going to fall in love with over our actual core. He got a 6'6 Defensive PG! he will probably end up starting over rudy gay

Nah I just feel like we will start the season off horrible, and then trade everyone. If we kept it together the whole year we will catch 8th 90% sure, but I feel like a strong start schedule will be the raps downfall. Fire casey after a bad month, start looking to make trades with interim coach in the mix (all these assistants have previous HC exp).

by trade everyone i do not mean trade everyone for expiring contracts, just to clarify for the 90000th time.

[CoachJReturns]

I hope we just **** roll out our core so the Anti-Tank gets excited as ****, just to watch them crash and burn and finish 11th anyway and support the tank

Let's not go completely nuts, here.

If Lowry is healthy all year and plays Kyle Lowry ball at a level of what he did the year before last, then we're not going to finish 11th. If that happens, and Valanciunas makes some significant strides defensively, and Novak and Hansbrough come in and do their thing and Ross and Fields both improve a little, maybe the playoffs become realistic. Sure, we'd get embarrassed once we're there, but we might make it.

But that's an awful lot of optimistic "maybes" for a pretty small reward.

Casey has too many defensive prospects hes going to fall in love with over our actual core. He got a 6'6 Defensive PG! he will probably end up starting over rudy gay

Nah I just feel like we will start the season off horrible, and then trade everyone. If we kept it together the whole year we will catch 8th 90% sure, but I feel like a strong start schedule will be the raps downfall. Fire casey after a bad month, start looking to make trades with interim coach in the mix (all these assistants have previous HC exp).

by trade everyone i do not mean trade everyone for expiring contracts, just to clarify for the 90000th time.[/quote]

Kind of ridiculous how many times this has to be restated by anyone suggesting a rebuild. Some of the anti-tankers refuse to actually read the posts and just jump to their extreme conclusions first.

[akakalakin]

Let's not go completely nuts, here.

If Lowry is healthy all year and plays Kyle Lowry ball at a level of what he did the year before last, then we're not going to finish 11th. If that happens, and Valanciunas makes some significant strides defensively, and Novak and Hansbrough come in and do their thing and Ross and Fields both improve a little, maybe the playoffs become realistic. Sure, we'd get embarrassed once we're there, but we might make it.

But that's an awful lot of optimistic "maybes" for a pretty small reward.

Casey has too many defensive prospects hes going to fall in love with over our actual core. He got a 6'6 Defensive PG! he will probably end up starting over rudy gay

Nah I just feel like we will start the season off horrible, and then trade everyone. If we kept it together the whole year we will catch 8th 90% sure, but I feel like a strong start schedule will be the raps downfall. Fire casey after a bad month, start looking to make trades with interim coach in the mix (all these assistants have previous HC exp).

by trade everyone i do not mean trade everyone for expiring contracts, just to clarify for the 90000th time.[/quote]

Kind of ridiculous how many times this has to be restated by anyone suggesting a rebuild. Some of the anti-tankers refuse to actually read the posts and just jump to their extreme conclusions first.

the Bargnani trade is entirely useless other than tax relief, there is no other way to take the program

[TheRealBlizzy]

yeh my ideal rebuild we would keep probably 4/8 of our main core pieces anyway,

its on a few pages prior but yeah..

Lowry | Buycks | Stone
DD | Ross | Stone
Wiggins/Randle | Ross | Novak
Tristan Thompson | Hansborough | Novak
Jonas Valanciunas | Hansborough or TT spot minutes | Joel Anthony / Aaron Gray

That would be us going into 2014, with just doing a Rudy Gay + Amir + Landry + MIA 2nd for TT + AV - send AVarejao to MIA for Joel Anthony / Mike Miller (buyout/retire) / 2x first round 2x 2nd round. one 2nd rounder goes to cleveland.

Would have cap room, if derozan pans out with 3 and better d we keep him over ross, and trade ross and picks for solid vets to round out that team.

if derozan stays the same this year, while ross improves, we move ross to starter and trade derozan for a bunch of picks or other vets that fit a need better.

if both derozan and ross dont fit what we want, we package both off for players that can hit the fkn 3 + D consistantly as a starter.

idk just my feeling on this, and moving forward that young core is solid. 2 toronto players also.

[hillbilly hare]

I hope we just **** roll out our core so the Anti-Tank gets excited as ****, just to watch them crash and burn and finish 11th anyway and support the tank

Let's not go completely nuts, here.

If Lowry is healthy all year and plays Kyle Lowry ball at a level of what he did the year before last, then we're not going to finish 11th. If that happens, and Valanciunas makes some significant strides defensively, and Novak and Hansbrough come in and do their thing and Ross and Fields both improve a little, maybe the playoffs become realistic. Sure, we'd get embarrassed once we're there, but we might make it.

But that's an awful lot of optimistic "maybes" for a pretty small reward.

As a pro-tanker I've been saying that for a while now. A team with a healthy, 2011-era Lowry, a healthy Rudy Gay, an improving Jonas, a more confident in his role Amir, and at the very least the same old Demar, is a borderline playoff team, which could win as many as 44 games if Jonas takes it to the next level, i.e. something like a 21 year old Pau Gasol, or a 3rd year Noah. It really does depend on him. If Fields plays at the highest level he's played at, which unfortunately was only for about a 4-month span, and Ross is anywhere near as good as advertised (by used car salesman Colangelo), then sure, the team could be anywhere from 40 to 44 wins.

But. And there's a big but (not anyone's wife), if things go best case scenario, I really do think there's a good chance it's a one year kick at the cat. I think there is a good chance Lowry leaves next year, and a possible chance Gay leaves too, especially in the wake of an Igoudala type contract.

How to proceed? Like a lot of guys have said here. Play "honest", showcase guys, and, even though it might be tough to sell and to swallow, push for the best return possible at the right moment for Rudy and Lowry and even Demar, if possible. Look to accumulate first rounders next year and clear cap space. Look for diamonds in the rough like Tobias Harris (20 years old) or Bledsoe, or even Harden and George, BEFORE they turned into superstars, not after. Is Masai the right guy for the job?

[TheRealBlizzy]

Casey has too many defensive prospects hes going to fall in love with over our actual core. He got a 6'6 Defensive PG! he will probably end up starting over rudy gay

Nah I just feel like we will start the season off horrible, and then trade everyone. If we kept it together the whole year we will catch 8th 90% sure, but I feel like a strong start schedule will be the raps downfall. Fire casey after a bad month, start looking to make trades with interim coach in the mix (all these assistants have previous HC exp).

by trade everyone i do not mean trade everyone for expiring contracts, just to clarify for the 90000th time.[/quote]

Kind of ridiculous how many times this has to be restated by anyone suggesting a rebuild. Some of the anti-tankers refuse to actually read the posts and just jump to their extreme conclusions first.

the Bargnani trade is entirely useless other than tax relief, there is no other way to take the program

What the ****?

hahahahaha

we got first rounders and 2nd rounders !!!!!!! and expiring contracts.