The Tank Debate Thread

[LocallyRespected]

Tank or no tank I think when wiggins has an opportunity to play in Toronto he will take it

[Reg00]

We do all know that if a team wins 40+ games and makes the playoffs with a team made up of early to mid 20 year old's is actually a good thing, and a sign that your team is in the right direction right? You all have a really really vague sense of championship building (#1 pick = championship!!!!), but look past the 40+ wins and see what it likely means in terms of basketball realities....

1. Likely means JV is actually is good as we think he is. Maybe a 40+ win season means he is a 16-8 guy? He found some confidence to score on the block? Is that better then a top 10 pick? But maybe JV is the problem, we should trade him away and be even in a better position to win! And by win I mean the lottery, not games.

2. Likely means DD has developed his outside shot and won us a few games. Personally don't see it happening, but moving this contract is a tough nut to crack.

3. Gay comes into his own and builds on decent numbers from after the trade. Could see this happening.

4. Lowry's weight issues gone and his first step becomes more dangerous. Plus it means hes not injured. Good possibility.

5. Any of the supporting cast steps up and give solid contributions.

6. And the fun fact to all these developments? Suddenly the roster are full of trade able assets.

These are all real basketball developments. Pathetically hoping for the NBA lottery to give you a championship is just that, pathetic. I don't mean to be nasty, but when I come in here and see a general agreement that "everyone who's not a tanker is stupid" I get annoyed.

Also, is it only fun to watch championship caliber teams every year? Honestly, if watching a good "treadmill" team like Memphis or Indiana (playoff bound non-contenders) is so hard for you to take, then why bother watching basketball at all? Just become a fan of whatever current championship team exists.

This dynasty-or-bust thinking is just setting yourself up for a hard fall. Dynasties are pretty hard to come by, and just ask every team but, what, 3 in the last 20 years to get the proof.

[TheRealBlizzy]

We do all know that if a team wins 40+ games and makes the playoffs with a team made up of early to mid 20 year old's is actually a good thing, and a sign that your team is in the right direction right? You all have a really really vague sense of championship building (#1 pick = championship!!!!), but look past the 40+ wins and see what it likely means in terms of basketball realities....

1. Likely means JV is actually is good as we think he is. Maybe a 40+ win season means he is a 16-8 guy? He found some confidence to score on the block? Is that better then a top 10 pick? But maybe JV is the problem, we should trade him away and be even in a better position to win! And by win I mean the lottery, not games.

2. Likely means DD has developed his outside shot and won us a few games. Personally don't see it happening, but moving this contract is a tough nut to crack.

3. Gay comes into his own and builds on decent numbers from after the trade. Could see this happening.

4. Lowry's weight issues gone and his first step becomes more dangerous. Plus it means hes not injured. Good possibility.

5. Any of the supporting cast steps up and give solid contributions.

6. And the fun fact to all these developments? Suddenly the roster are full of trade able assets.

These are all real basketball developments. Pathetically hoping for the NBA lottery to give you a championship is just that, pathetic. I don't mean to be nasty, but when I come in here and see a general agreement that "everyone who's not a tanker is stupid" I get annoyed.

Also, is it only fun to watch championship caliber teams every year? Honestly, if watching a good "treadmill" team like Memphis or Indiana (playoff bound non-contenders) is so hard for you to take, then why bother watching basketball at all? Just become a fan of whatever current championship team exists.

This dynasty-or-bust thinking is just setting yourself up for a hard fall. Dynasties are pretty hard to come by, and just ask every team but, what, 3 in the last 20 years to get the proof.

Honestly, this is the real issue.

If the team we have now all miraculously develops into a real contender (its possble, ill give you guys that there is a chance unlike how we don't get any chance at landing wiggins) these players need to get paid.

We are currently at the cap, if all of our players improve in order to maintain our team we must now pay more to Lowry, extend Rudy, Extend JV to likely a max deal, and Ross will be needing an extension, among resigning others after that once DD/Amir/Hansboro/Buycks ect expire in 2 yrs...

Even if our current core makes it, a team made up of 5-7 guys who all need 10-18 million dollars doesnt work.. thats why you need those 2-3 MAX superstars with min level vets / role players (or young prospects still on rookie deals ie okc) who are actually worth it in order to compete for a long time, or else you just become the nets and have a 1 yr window before you gotta blow **** up, while paying $100mil in taxes.

If this team sticks together and is stomping over the league, thats **** awesome!! but then we have to pay... and its highly doubtful without adding a few more pieces that we will be true contenders, and after we pay our current core we wont be able to sign many players to fill out the roster like MIA / LA because people go there for next to nothing due to history / weather.

[TheRealBlizzy]

You said all those teams tanked. I showed you those teams started the year like us, thats a fact. So were better off keeping our players then trading them if we dont get good value in return, which is the whole point of this thread.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

And Demars not my boy lol I have no problem with trading him, just think he has more value then RealGM gives him credit for. As an example, RealGM were way off on Calderon and Bargnanis value.

What you failed to realize is that those teams weren't capped out and never had a GM who built something that wasn't very good or sustainable for winning. That is the difference and why our situation is unique and why it is so important that we get the best possible value for these guys whenever that happens from now until the deadline. We unfortunetely had a horrible GM for the last 7 years and re-built something that isn't championship worthy in the last 3 but more as a 6-8 seed. Also, we aren't going to let Lowry and Gay walk for nothing, that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do so that is why a move will happen unless we somehow win 45-50 games this season which is highly unlikely.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

Again, you're wrong. Any of the pro tankers who know what they are talking about want to get the best possible package for our guys. No one is saying to dump them for expirings, you may get the odd poster who is oblivious to the situation but for the most part we want the best possible assets coming back (picks, young players, expirings).

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already quoted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

The sad part is, most tankers feel the exact same way at this point, other then the small fact that it might just be better to make a decision one way or the other to avoid getting stuck in the middle too late. I think this whole back and forth argument is just wayyyy blown out of proportion for no reason and most people on both sides don't see what each other wants, which is realistically VERY similar.

Anti-Tank: Same core hope they do well, if not trade one of rudy/lowry or both for a proven allstar and fill in team once contracts expire

Tank: same core hope they do really well, if not doing well and players don't look to have potential gained from summer, drop one of rudy/lowry if not both for draft picks in 2014, play the rooks a ton and try to get a top5 pick to get our all star on a cheaper contract (and younger) .. fill in once contracts expire with proven players

I don't see how those two visions are causing so many issues... both seem to have us actually being a contender by 2015-2016 if all goes well, both would be exciting to watch (young players + wicked draft times in the summer vs some playoffs this year) but I guess that's the internet!

Im going to try not to argue anymore as its pointless, and to me I really don't see the argument (only with people who say our core as it stands right now will beat miami ect... at least most of you acknowledge we need to tweek things)

[TANKNATION]

Its pretty disturbing to see smart people put the intellectual positions behind the pro tank movement and the pro treadmillmovement at the same level. The treadmill position is really simple, it has two parts and they are both equally nonsensical. First, tanking is a bad idea because there is uncertainty, you can have the worst record and still only have a 20% shot at Wiggins. Second, winning 39-43 games would be a good outcome, making the playoffs is important.

The first argument appeals to a lo of people and i can understand that, people seem to lose their minds when dealing with uncertainty. What people don't understand is that a 1 in 10 shot(which is probably where we'll end up if we tank properly) at Wiggins is more important for this franchise than a meaningless first round knockout as the 8th seed and that's ignoring the consolation prizes, plenty of people here have already made that case. Wiggins with JV as his partner in crime would make Toronto a legitimate free agent destination, if he stays healthy it would be pretty hard for the Raptors not to become contenders. The future of this organization would improve by a 100 fold, so even a 1 in 10 shot is a worthwhile gamble. Every decision you make in the NBA is a gamble, who you spend the dollars on, who you spend a draft pick on, who you hire, so why do people seem to lose their mind when you want to gamble on the lottery where the odds are clearly laid out for you?

The second pro treadmill argument cannot be countered because its an emotional one, some people just like making the playoffs every now and then. Its a positive reinforcement for a lot people who might be losing faith in being a fan. Its like a casino letting a degenerate gambler win every now and then so he keeps coming back.

Ok u are saying that the worst team only has 20% chance of landing Wiggins. but this is the deepest draft in a decade, you can get a potential all star in the first 5 picks alone with wiggins, randle, parker, gordan, Harrison which is ABSOLUTELY worth tanking for.

[BBS22]

Anyone against tanking. Which would you rather have:

Case 1:
A 2 year window (Ujiri's words) where we can get to (at best) the eastern conference finals, face Miami (likely losing LeBron is that good). Then tank in year 3.

Case 2: Tank. Get a top 5 pick in the deepest draft in a decade that could change his franchise for a minimum 4 years. With the prize being the hometown hero, sells jerseys, tickets and merch.

To me, Ujiri is doing option 1 but more lazy. He's just letting it play out instead of actually guiding this team. Ujiri was given a 4/5 year contract. The pressure would be on in year 3 to tank with Ujiri's contract winding down, meaning bad decisions could be made (Think BC trying to save his job). Whereas year 1, he can use his goodwill building this team and tank. He has that contract to fallback on and confidence.

I want a contender, not Miami fodder.

Tank City: Operation Wiggins.

[TorontoRapture]

Tank or no tank I think when wiggins has an opportunity to play in Toronto he will take it

The Raptors fans can only assume and hope that it true.

[hillbilly hare]

You dont get talent by giving away talent. If you give away all your talent in hopes of drafting great talent, you will need a James/Durant caliber to make up for it. Bosh/Aldridge wont cut it. Or did you forget the last 10 years of the NBA?

That is so wrong I don't know where to begin.

Of the 15 guys on last year's All-NBA teams (not to go too far back in history), 6 of them changed teams via trades. Teams "gave away talent" and got SUPERIOR talent in return.

Maybe you should begin with your reading comprehension. I clearly wasnt talking about trading your talent for stars, I was talking about giving away your talent so you can purposely suck for a high draft pick this year.

I thought you were pro tank? That wouldnt be a tank move, that would be a treadmill move probably giving us a 7-11 record this year.

It would be Step 1 to building a real contender. Nobody said you had to do it all in one trade or one off-season. The Rockets did it in a two step process and so did the Clippers. The Rockets used their so-so trade assets (ours were better last year) to get Harden and then used their skillfully maneuvered cap space to sign Dwight. The Clippers got Griffin thru the draft and Paul via trade, though in his case it really was a classic ton-of-assets for a superstar trade.

But seriously, if we somehow managed to trade everyone not named Jonas on the team for a young talent like Harden or George, then drafted in the top 5 next draft, we would be well on our way. Crucial point being: you must accumulate the assets needed to get a superstar, and those assets are, once again, first round picks, young prospects and cap space, in the form of pure cap space or even a big expiring contract.

I am advocating all of this precisely because, and only because, we do not have any All-star talent on this team. The only current player with All-star potential (always a difficult word to use) is Jonas. Hence I am for building with him as a core piece in a potential contending team. All of the other guys, however good or less good they are, do not, in my opinion, have All-star potential, let alone game-changing potential.

So let me get this straight.. our team sucks right now and has no all-star caliber players, yet if we trade for a SUPERSTAR we will somehow be bad enough to get a top 5 pick? Do you have any semblance of what your talking about or do you just go from thread to thread using anything as an excuse to ride Moreys jock? You do realize what Morey did is the epitome of ANTI-TANKING??? 9th place, 9th place, 9th place, 8th place. Moreys model is a tankers worst nightmare, so how the hell can you keep talking about using the Rockets as an example, yet at the same time being pro tank?

Sense, you make none.

You still don't really get the idea of posting here, do you? Your terd-soaked replies have really gotten boring. What a waste of time. Ignore.

[mdot]

Anyone against tanking. Which would you rather have:

Case 1:
A 2 year window (Ujiri's words) where we can get to (at best) the eastern conference finals, face Miami (likely losing LeBron is that good). Then tank in year 3.

Case 2: Tank. Get a top 5 pick in the deepest draft in a decade that could change his franchise for a minimum 4 years. With the prize being the hometown hero, sells jerseys, tickets and merch.

To me, Ujiri is doing option 1 but more lazy. He's just letting it play out instead of actually guiding this team. Ujiri was given a 4/5 year contract. The pressure would be on in year 3 to tank with Ujiri's contract winding down, meaning bad decisions could be made (Think BC trying to save his job). Whereas year 1, he can use his goodwill building this team and tank. He has that contract to fallback on and confidence.

I want a contender, not Miami fodder.

Tank City: Operation Wiggins.

Sorry to be the baron of bad news to you, but...http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40055/does-tanking-even-work

[DatBoiCapspace]

What you failed to realize is that those teams weren't capped out and never had a GM who built something that wasn't very good or sustainable for winning. That is the difference and why our situation is unique and why it is so important that we get the best possible value for these guys whenever that happens from now until the deadline. We unfortunetely had a horrible GM for the last 7 years and re-built something that isn't championship worthy in the last 3 but more as a 6-8 seed. Also, we aren't going to let Lowry and Gay walk for nothing, that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do so that is why a move will happen unless we somehow win 45-50 games this season which is highly unlikely.



Again, you're wrong. Any of the pro tankers who know what they are talking about want to get the best possible package for our guys. No one is saying to dump them for expirings, you may get the odd poster who is oblivious to the situation but for the most part we want the best possible assets coming back (picks, young players, expirings).

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already quoted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

The sad part is, most tankers feel the exact same way at this point, other then the small fact that it might just be better to make a decision one way or the other to avoid getting stuck in the middle too late. I think this whole back and forth argument is just wayyyy blown out of proportion for no reason and most people on both sides don't see what each other wants, which is realistically VERY similar.

Anti-Tank: Same core hope they do well, if not trade one of rudy/lowry or both for a proven allstar and fill in team once contracts expire

Tank: same core hope they do really well, if not doing well and players don't look to have potential gained from summer, drop one of rudy/lowry if not both for draft picks in 2014, play the rooks a ton and try to get a top5 pick to get our all star on a cheaper contract (and younger) .. fill in once contracts expire with proven players

I don't see how those two visions are causing so many issues... both seem to have us actually being a contender by 2015-2016 if all goes well, both would be exciting to watch (young players + wicked draft times in the summer vs some playoffs this year) but I guess that's the internet!

Im going to try not to argue anymore as its pointless, and to me I really don't see the argument (only with people who say our core as it stands right now will beat miami ect... at least most of you acknowledge we need to tweek things)

I agree, and I think Masai's press conference has knocked some common sense into both sides of the debate.

You dont just throw players to the trash so you can suck, thats not a serious plan. In the absence of a good value deal for one of our starters its best to play the year out with them. But if the team still sucks balls half way through the year it might be time to move on from Gay/Lowry in particular, who are free agents and could decide to walk, which would enable us to tank the 2nd half of the year and get that lotto pick after all. Its a win-win.

Back to the topic, I personally dont buy the Nate Robinson rumour because I think the Raptors will opt for someone younger as a 2nd guard who can be turned into a value asset down the road in his prime. But I would love it if we brought someone of his caliber into our backup pg spot. Mo Williams is another, more traditional 1 who could really help our bench as well. We should look to trade Camby to a contender for a 2nd round pick as well. Maybe LAC or OKC?

[BBS22]

Anyone against tanking. Which would you rather have:

Case 1:
A 2 year window (Ujiri's words) where we can get to (at best) the eastern conference finals, face Miami (likely losing LeBron is that good). Then tank in year 3.

Case 2: Tank. Get a top 5 pick in the deepest draft in a decade that could change his franchise for a minimum 4 years. With the prize being the hometown hero, sells jerseys, tickets and merch.

To me, Ujiri is doing option 1 but more lazy. He's just letting it play out instead of actually guiding this team. Ujiri was given a 4/5 year contract. The pressure would be on in year 3 to tank with Ujiri's contract winding down, meaning bad decisions could be made (Think BC trying to save his job). Whereas year 1, he can use his goodwill building this team and tank. He has that contract to fallback on and confidence.

I want a contender, not Miami fodder.

Tank City: Operation Wiggins.

Sorry to be the baron of bad news to you, but...http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40055/does-tanking-even-work

This doesn't defeat my argument at all. That argument makes a lot of illogical leaps for example when talking about LeBron James, does it really matter if Cleveland only went to the finals once? Does that really diminish they likely could have won the NBA championship with just 1 draft/franchise changing pick?

I want Wiggins but as I said in my post, I'm very much okay with a top 5 pick in the deepest draft since 2003. Obviously going 0-82 you have a good chance of losing the lottery but I also wouldn't say that means we should try for the playoffs with this talent level. At least in the draft lottery, anything can happen. In the playoffs, only a handful of teams have won the championship and fewer will contend against LeBron/Miami or Durant/OKC.

In other words, the talent level of this roster isn't there. We've spent our cap and our talent pool sucks at fundamentals. This is not the team you build with a top 5 pick 2014 + Jonas is what you build around.

[nodeal]

How about this, tanking is bad sportsmanship and against the very foundation of competition and sport.

You dont rebuild to win less games you rebuild to win more games, and to increase your chance at a title. You have to understand this one simple concept. The raptors franchise goes beyond next yr.

Is it bad sportsmanship to rest your starters for a playoff push?
Is it bad sportsmanship to rest your players, knowing you match up better if you fell 1 seed in the standings?
Taking 1 step back to take 2 steps forward is not bad sportsmanship. Its called being smart.

[nodeal]

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already quoted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

The sad part is, most tankers feel the exact same way at this point, other then the small fact that it might just be better to make a decision one way or the other to avoid getting stuck in the middle too late. I think this whole back and forth argument is just wayyyy blown out of proportion for no reason and most people on both sides don't see what each other wants, which is realistically VERY similar.

Anti-Tank: Same core hope they do well, if not trade one of rudy/lowry or both for a proven allstar and fill in team once contracts expire

Tank: same core hope they do really well, if not doing well and players don't look to have potential gained from summer, drop one of rudy/lowry if not both for draft picks in 2014, play the rooks a ton and try to get a top5 pick to get our all star on a cheaper contract (and younger) .. fill in once contracts expire with proven players

I don't see how those two visions are causing so many issues... both seem to have us actually being a contender by 2015-2016 if all goes well, both would be exciting to watch (young players + wicked draft times in the summer vs some playoffs this year) but I guess that's the internet!

Im going to try not to argue anymore as its pointless, and to me I really don't see the argument (only with people who say our core as it stands right now will beat miami ect... at least most of you acknowledge we need to tweek things)

I agree, and I think Masai's press conference has knocked some common sense into both sides of the debate.

You dont just throw players to the trash so you can suck, thats not a serious plan. In the absence of a good value deal for one of our starters its best to play the year out with them. But if the team still sucks balls half way through the year it might be time to move on from Gay/Lowry in particular, who are free agents and could decide to walk, which would enable us to tank the 2nd half of the year and get that lotto pick after all. Its a win-win.

masai said nothing that myself or many other pro rebuilders have been saying for months. Read my post here viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1262766&start=60 about 3 posts down. Masai basically said what was said in that post.

[youreachiteach]

I think BC built a decent team 2 years too late.

After the Bosh fiasco he largely did ok (minus fields). He made many more mistakes over his tenure but principally his biggest error was not trading Bosh and Bargs when their value was higher. Simplified, I think his largest problem was the drafting and subsequent support/leash for Bargs. It destroyed everything he was trying to do (build an offensive, fun, fast paced, international team with maximum talent and effort) and turned everything to sh*t.

He started to change that mandate after the Bosh fiasco but when his job got put back on the line he tried to swing for the fences again instead of hold steady. This is one of his other issues--taking risks that are too high with too little reward.

Now, this is not a bring back BC post, or even a Brian Burke tough luck post--he needed to be fired for these problems and many more (lack of full use of the draft, poor development, poor hiring of coaches etc.)

The fact remains, though, that the final starting product he left us with is a great lineup--but he'd already sealed his fate and acquired Rudy much too late. It is almost too cruel to be true that his last transaction was to replace Bargs with the player he should have drafted all those years ago. His lack of foresight forced us to overpay him and half the starting lineup instead of simply letting things play out.

Now that Val, and Rudy and Lowry and Demar and Amir have finally found cohesion, a decent bench might make us an interesting team to play. If not, tank away. Those Rudy and Demar for expirings will be around whenever you want them--they cost the team acquiring our players nothing,

[dballislife]

say what u want about BC but he left us with jonas, gay, demar, amir, ross, and lowry...a starting lineup and core of talented character guys, all 21-27...and left with no bad contract other than fields

[ReturnofMVP3]

2003 draft vibe going off about this one. Don't blow it because BC sucks at picking/tanking properly . Yeah it sucks but you guys might as well get the proper personal. Unless you want to risk your luck at being the 04 Pistons get a sure superstar. I don't know if you have any immediate superstar FA in mind but future superstar in Wiggins might as well be worth it.

[ReturnofMVP3]

say what u want about BC but he left us with jonas, gay, demar, amir, ross, and lowry...a starting lineup and core of talented character guys, all 21-27...and left with no bad contract other than fields

Demar's contracts isn't that great actually and he should have drafted Drummond not Ross.

[Reg00]

Sometimes you take 1 step back followed by another 2 to 3 steps back.

[StMikes31]

You said all those teams tanked. I showed you those teams started the year like us, thats a fact. So were better off keeping our players then trading them if we dont get good value in return, which is the whole point of this thread.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

And Demars not my boy lol I have no problem with trading him, just think he has more value then RealGM gives him credit for. As an example, RealGM were way off on Calderon and Bargnanis value.

What you failed to realize is that those teams weren't capped out and never had a GM who built something that wasn't very good or sustainable for winning. That is the difference and why our situation is unique and why it is so important that we get the best possible value for these guys whenever that happens from now until the deadline. We unfortunetely had a horrible GM for the last 7 years and re-built something that isn't championship worthy in the last 3 but more as a 6-8 seed. Also, we aren't going to let Lowry and Gay walk for nothing, that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do so that is why a move will happen unless we somehow win 45-50 games this season which is highly unlikely.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

Again, you're wrong. Any of the pro tankers who know what they are talking about want to get the best possible package for our guys. No one is saying to dump them for expirings, you may get the odd poster who is oblivious to the situation but for the most part we want the best possible assets coming back (picks, young players, expirings).

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already qouted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

Grow up dude.

A lot of these anti-tankers think a core of Lowry, Gay and Demar can actually work when we all know it wont. You got Reignman who admitted he just wants a treadmill team and has no hope. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this board. People think we aren't trading these guys and we should keep adding to it which is laughable because 2/3 of them can leave at the end of the year. We are not winning 40+ wins this year, the bubble teams in the East improved a lot and Casey is still the coach.

What's funny is you are against tanking and don't want to trade these guys for expirings and garbage(i agree with) but yet you agree with getting the best possible package that will probably include picks/young players. Not for anything, but both those moves are tanking moves. So basically in the end you admit you want to tank.

[dacrusha]

say what u want about BC but he left us with jonas, gay, demar, amir, ross, and lowry...a starting lineup and core of talented character guys, all 21-27...and left with no bad contract other than fields

You know, I agree that we have a good base of talent here, but the biggest problem with out roster as it stands (and the reason BC should be ridiculed as much as he has been) is that we are completely capped out with little room to improve on the FA front.

Instead of MU sitting on the roster and hoping for some improvement due to JV's natural progression and another season of this core playing together, our cap situation should ALSO have allowed for us to sign a tier-2 talent (say Milsap) to send someone like Amir to play off the bench.

We've got nearly $14 in salary going to deadweights in Fields, Kleiza and Gray.