The Tank Debate Thread

[DatBoiCapspace]

What you failed to realize is that those teams weren't capped out and never had a GM who built something that wasn't very good or sustainable for winning. That is the difference and why our situation is unique and why it is so important that we get the best possible value for these guys whenever that happens from now until the deadline. We unfortunetely had a horrible GM for the last 7 years and re-built something that isn't championship worthy in the last 3 but more as a 6-8 seed. Also, we aren't going to let Lowry and Gay walk for nothing, that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do so that is why a move will happen unless we somehow win 45-50 games this season which is highly unlikely.



Again, you're wrong. Any of the pro tankers who know what they are talking about want to get the best possible package for our guys. No one is saying to dump them for expirings, you may get the odd poster who is oblivious to the situation but for the most part we want the best possible assets coming back (picks, young players, expirings).

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already qouted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

Grow up dude.

A lot of these anti-tankers think a core of Lowry, Gay and Demar can actually work when we all know it wont. You got Reignman who admitted he just wants a treadmill team and has no hope. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this board. People think we aren't trading these guys and we should keep adding to it which is laughable because 2/3 of them can leave at the end of the year. We are not winning 40+ wins this year, the bubble teams in the East improved a lot and Casey is still the coach.

What's funny is you are against tanking and don't want to trade these guys for expirings and garbage(i agree with) but yet you agree with getting the best possible package that will probably include picks/young players. Not for anything, but both those moves are tanking moves. So basically in the end you admit you want to tank.

Kind of but not really, I only want to dump Lowry and Gay if we suck because chances are they wont want to resign here, but again only Masai can make that judgement call because he deals with their agents.

You on the other hand have just admitted that if the Raptors are on pace to win 40+ this year that we should not trade away our core. Try posting that in a tank thread and see the responses. You my friend, are an anti-tanker

[StMikes31]

dude go to one of the dozens of pro-tank threads and see how wrong you are. I already qouted you a whole list of them in another thread. Not going to do that here because I want the trolls out.

By the way, if you read this thread youll see most ANTI-TANKERS want to do what you just said. Not rush to trade our players just so we can suck, start the year with this core and see how they perform, if were competitive build on that, if not then possibly trade 1/2 of Gay/Lowry who are free agents. So you literally just came in here to troll a thread full of people you actually agree with.

Grow up dude.

A lot of these anti-tankers think a core of Lowry, Gay and Demar can actually work when we all know it wont. You got Reignman who admitted he just wants a treadmill team and has no hope. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this board. People think we aren't trading these guys and we should keep adding to it which is laughable because 2/3 of them can leave at the end of the year. We are not winning 40+ wins this year, the bubble teams in the East improved a lot and Casey is still the coach.

What's funny is you are against tanking and don't want to trade these guys for expirings and garbage(i agree with) but yet you agree with getting the best possible package that will probably include picks/young players. Not for anything, but both those moves are tanking moves. So basically in the end you admit you want to tank.

Kind of but not really, I only want to dump Lowry and Gay if we suck because chances are they wont want to resign here, but again only Masai can make that judgement call because he deals with their agents.

You on the other hand have just admitted that if the Raptors are on pace to win 40+ this year that we should not trade away our core. Try posting that in a tank thread and see the responses. You my friend, are an anti-tanker

Kind of but not really?

We will suck, that's what you're not getting. We aren't touching MIA-IND-BRK-CHI-NY-ATL. Washington, Detroit, Atlanta and Cleveland all got better than us as well. At the VERY best we are a 7-12 team in the East with a team that is maxed out cap wise. There is no other options but to trade your core especially when 2 of them can walk at the end of the year.

Seriously, I don't think you can actually read because I just said we have to trade Gay and Lowry since both have the options of walking at the end of the year. Even if the Raptors are a .500 team come the deadline, Masai is still going to trade them because again we aren't going anywhere with them.

You my friend, are a tanker. Just come out of the closet.

[ansoncarter]

We do all know that if a team wins 40+ games and makes the playoffs with a team made up of early to mid 20 year old's is actually a good thing, and a sign that your team is in the right direction right?

YES! it will be amazing when the rebuild is over and we have 20year olds with huge upside! They'll put the entire city on notice and create a buzz we haven't seen since Vince

there'll be parties all over the place, every playoff game. I'll even buy you a beer and we can talk about how lucky we are the treadmillers finally came to their senses and MLSE was finally forced to rebuild properly

You all have a really really vague sense of championship building (#1 pick = championship!!!!), but look past the 40+ wins and see what it likely means in terms of basketball realities....

1. Likely means JV is actually is good as we think he is. Maybe a 40+ win season means he is a 16-8 guy? He found some confidence to score on the block? Is that better then a top 10 pick? But maybe JV is the problem, we should trade him away and be even in a better position to win! And by win I mean the lottery, not games.

well yeah, although I doubt our only blue-chipper would be seen as the problem

that's what rebuilding is. When it looks like the team is going nowhere, even a playoff team, accept reality. Put in the hard work. And do something about it instead of standing in place.

2. Likely means DD has developed his outside shot and won us a few games. Personally don't see it happening, but moving this contract is a tough nut to crack.

3. Gay comes into his own and builds on decent numbers from after the trade. Could see this happening.

4. Lowry's weight issues gone and his first step becomes more dangerous. Plus it means hes not injured. Good possibility.

5. Any of the supporting cast steps up and give solid contributions.

6. And the fun fact to all these developments? Suddenly the roster are full of trade able assets.

still not worth a draft pick at the top of the 2014 class which is supposedly loaded. If Boy Val is really that good we need to surround him with bluechipper/s before it's too late. Before it ends with us all boo'ing him while watching him destroy us in another team's jersey.

This dynasty-or-bust thinking is just setting yourself up for a hard fall. Dynasties are pretty hard to come by, and just ask every team but, what, 3 in the last 20 years to get the proof.

can't speak for everyone but I think rebuilders just want a team with real hope, and do not believe the treadmill will lead to that. Watching one-and-done playoff teams gets old fast

and for me personally even a max'ed out 50win team that makes the 2nd round a couple times, still feels like failure. It's frustrating being Craig Ehlo watching Jordan hit a game winner over you. And that would be the absolute best case for a retool imo. The Craig Ehlo of teams.

[StMikes31]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/356054962519801856[/tweet]

FWIW

[Salted Meat]

If this team, as currently constructed, was in a position to win 50 games, then I might see the benefit of retooling.

This is not a 50 win team.

We also have to consider that Gay and Lowry have contracts that expire very soon, and will either need to be re-upped, or we risk losing losing both of them in free agency. That's 2/5 of our starting line-up, and arguably our two best players gone. How do you even consider re-tooling in this situation? To me, there is more uncertainty in them staying than there is in tanking and getting a high draft pick.

Put it this way. You are the GM of another team, and have just won the rights to the #1 draft pick in 2014.
Would you trade that pick to the Raptors for any of their players? No, right?

Try it again with the 2nd pick. Then the 3rd.

How far down do you have to go before you consider trading it? And for who? I tried this myself, and think Valanciunas might get you a pick in the top 6-8.

Now go back to the #1 overall pick, and ask yourself, if the Raptors had it, who would you be willing to trade it for?

THAT'S what we're dealing with here.

A top pick isn't just a player. It's an asset in itself. It's a prominent and exclusive place in line to dip into a well of potential. People pay big money for that kind of access.

What's possibly the biggest deal is that in this case, the Raptors don't have to be the worst team to acquire a pick whose value exceeds that of its best players. A top 5-6 pick will bring in either a player, or offers from other teams, that can dramatically impact the competitive nature of this club, and despite the optics, and despite how much losing the fans have had to endure, they're not in a position to be turning down the opportunity to acquire that kind of value.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

[Reg00]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

[TheRealBlizzy]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

WE AINT GONNA WIN 50+ THIS TEAM WON 35 GAMES WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER IF NOT BETTER ROSTER LAST YEAR. WE ARE BANKING ON 20 GAME W/L IMPROVEMENT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF OUR 27YR OLD "STAR".

[CanadaB-Ball]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

This team is not a fifty win team. What happens if Lowry and Gay leave? Then what? Even if they don't leave, how can we afford to surround them with the talent necessary to become a 50 win team?

James freakin' Harden wasn't worth fifteen wins by himself (12.8 this year), and you're expecting Rudy and Jonas to be worth 15+ wins each? That would mean the Raptors would have two MVP candidates which, to put it bluntly, Rudy and (likely) Jonas will never be. Rudy's career high in win-shares is exactly half of what James Harden's was this year.

Do you know what a restricted free-agent is? Are you aware that this big-name draft pick has to stay with the team if that team decides to match whatever offer they agreed to with another team? Rookies have a four year entry contract (two of those years being team option years) with their drafted team. Following this contract, if the player is worth it, a max contract (which no other team could match) could be offered. Even if the player signs a offer-sheet with another team, you have the option to match that contract. This gives you nine years of control.

So... you were saying?

[DreamTeam09]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

WE AINT GONNA WIN 50+ THIS TEAM WON 35 GAMES WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER IF NOT BETTER ROSTER LAST YEAR. WE ARE BANKING ON 20 GAME W/L IMPROVEMENT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF OUR 27YR OLD "STAR".

You are just a complete liar when you say that. Please explain to me how this is the same team!! KEEP IN MIND WE MADE THE TRADE FOR RUDY WITH LIKE 30 GAMES LEFT and he missed several of them during that period too.

Bargnani, Jose, Dominic Mcguire, Allan Anderson, Mickeal Pietrus, JL3, Gray, were all starters or had significant roles at one point during the season last year. No this isn't the same team what so ever. In fact the starting line up that started the year is completely different than the one that finished with only the backcourt remaining the same.

I hate it when ppl just completely disregard the truth in order to validate something that is just wrong.

[DreamTeam09]

And another thing, there are a few ways for this team to take another step forward. If we land a top flight pf, then yeah we'll be in contender status. LMA / Klove / Horford all puts this team at another stage to compete, so lets not pretend draft picks are the only way to improve, trades happen all the times. All we have to do is be the beneficiary one more time of a team like Memphis who want's to go in a different direction.

[ansoncarter]

so our hopes rest on a player so valuable he was traded for Ed Davis

[TheRealBlizzy]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

WE AINT GONNA WIN 50+ THIS TEAM WON 35 GAMES WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER IF NOT BETTER ROSTER LAST YEAR. WE ARE BANKING ON 20 GAME W/L IMPROVEMENT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF OUR 27YR OLD "STAR".

You are just a complete liar when you say that. Please explain to me how this is the same team!! KEEP IN MIND WE MADE THE TRADE FOR RUDY WITH LIKE 30 GAMES LEFT and he missed several of them during that period too.

Bargnani, Jose, Dominic Mcguire, Allan Anderson, Mickeal Pietrus, JL3, Gray, were all starters or had significant roles at one point during the season last year. No this isn't the same team what so ever. In fact the starting line up that started the year is completely different than the one that finished with only the backcourt remaining the same.

I hate it when ppl just completely disregard the truth in order to validate something that is just wrong.

Lost all of those players to replace with Buycks (dleague) Psycho T (bench) and Steve Novak (all i do is 3) ..... right now we are a net negative as Jose Calderon by himself outplays all of our recent acquisitions. You can hate on bargnani but hes a better player then steve novak overall, AA + JL3 are serviceable bench players in this league, we are going with unproven dleague talent and a 3 ball specialist whos already peaked.

[TheRealBlizzy]

WE AINT GONNA WIN 50+ THIS TEAM WON 35 GAMES WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER IF NOT BETTER ROSTER LAST YEAR. WE ARE BANKING ON 20 GAME W/L IMPROVEMENT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF OUR 27YR OLD "STAR".

You are just a complete liar when you say that. Please explain to me how this is the same team!! KEEP IN MIND WE MADE THE TRADE FOR RUDY WITH LIKE 30 GAMES LEFT and he missed several of them during that period too.

Bargnani, Jose, Dominic Mcguire, Allan Anderson, Mickeal Pietrus, JL3, Gray, were all starters or had significant roles at one point during the season last year. No this isn't the same team what so ever. In fact the starting line up that started the year is completely different than the one that finished with only the backcourt remaining the same.

I hate it when ppl just completely disregard the truth in order to validate something that is just wrong.

Lost all of those players to replace with Buycks (dleague) Psycho T (bench) and Steve Novak (all i do is 3) ..... right now we are a net negative as Jose Calderon by himself outplays all of our recent acquisitions. You can hate on bargnani but hes a better player then steve novak overall, AA + JL3 are serviceable bench players in this league, we are going with unproven dleague talent and a 3 ball specialist whos already peaked.

I have kept that in mind too ~ We were 12-11 after the 4-19 start with our team prior to the Rudy Gay trade (if you want to break our season record up into preferrable segments for the Rudy Gay love) .. and went .500 with Rudy Gay to finish the year... BIG CHANGES ARE COMING! Rudy needed a year to get that Lasik

[hillbilly hare]

And another thing, there are a few ways for this team to take another step forward. If we land a top flight pf, then yeah we'll be in contender status. LMA / Klove / Horford all puts this team at another stage to compete, so lets not pretend draft picks are the only way to improve, trades happen all the times. All we have to do is be the beneficiary one more time of a team like Memphis who want's to go in a different direction.

Ironically, it would take the infamous 2014 draft lottery pick that pro-tankers are talking about, just to START talking about trading for Love or Aldridge or Horford. So apart from Jonas, what possible assets might we be able to offer Minny or Portland or Atlanta?

In the past we had a large amount of cap space, which can be useful in taking back big contracts a team wants to dump. But we don't even have that any more. I think the more you look at it, the more painfully clear it becomes just how thoroughly Clownangelo screwed this team into the ground as he was heading out the door.

There will be no Horfords or Loves or Aldridges. This is the roster we have, though minor tweaks can be made here and there. If Masai rolls with this team, it will be much better than in recent years (it would be hard not to be better than teams that lost 2/3 of their games), but not good enough to approach contention. If everyone is healthy, if Jonas takes his game up a notch after a year in the league, if none of the other starters takes a step backwards, if we get good coaching, the team could realistically be in 42-44 win territory.

And as good as that might feel to get a few playoff games under our belts, and it would definitely feel good, it might be a one and done feeling. Will Lowry re-sign? Will we want to pay serious guaranteed money to a guy who is hurt so often? Will Gay pull an Iggy? Opt out in order to get a longer-term deal? It's almost unheard of to opt out of 19M, but 19 is still a lot less than 4 x 12, for instance. But would it be worth it to sign them anyway? If the team goes out there this season and is winning around or slightly above 50% of its games thru, say, the New Year, do you recognize it for what it is - a mediocre .500 team - and break it up on the fly? Or do you stick with it to the bitter / bittersweet end?

[DreamTeam09]

so our hopes rest on a player so valuable he was traded for Ed Davis

No more or less risk in that than there is to hope for a top 5 pick and hoping for that player to actually be worthy of a top 5 pick and being a franchises core player.

Say round AS break, or next summer someone becomes available like LMA / Horford / Klove (which is all possible)

We'll be in position to make a play. Young prospect (Ross) + Expirings, (Lowry, Fields, grey, hansborough) + Picks (Raps 2014, 2015, 2016/NY 2016 + 2nds)

Val + One of those studs = one of the best front courts in the league. Couple with a more than good wing duo and a 3rd big like Amir off bench and that's one way you reach contender status.

[TheRealBlizzy]

so our hopes rest on a player so valuable he was traded for Ed Davis

No more or less risk in that than there is to hope for a top 5 pick and hoping for that player to actually be worthy of a top 5 pick and being a franchises core player.

Say round AS break, or next summer someone becomes available like LMA / Horford / Klove (which is all possible)

We'll be in position to make a play. Young prospect (Ross) + Expirings, (Lowry, Fields, grey, hansborough) + Picks (Raps 2014, 2015, 2016/NY 2016 + 2nds)

Val + One of those studs = one of the best front courts in the league. Couple with a more than good wing duo and a 3rd big like Amir off bench and that's one way you reach contender status.

Yes, there is less risk in drafting because that player actually has the potential still to become a franchise player, while Rudy Gay is in his prime and is an overpaid chucker.

[sanity]

Rudy Gay can leave on his own without anything this franchise can do about it in 1 year---exactly what Igoudala has done by opting out and leaving Denver. I don't think a high draft pick in a strong draft is even comparable to Gay's value long-term to this team. He's basically a rental like Lowry to us now. You can't treat him like a foundation player, even if he's better than previously thought as

[DreamTeam09]

WE AINT GONNA WIN 50+ THIS TEAM WON 35 GAMES WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER IF NOT BETTER ROSTER LAST YEAR. WE ARE BANKING ON 20 GAME W/L IMPROVEMENT THROUGH ORGANIC GROWTH OF OUR 27YR OLD "STAR".

You are just a complete liar when you say that. Please explain to me how this is the same team!! KEEP IN MIND WE MADE THE TRADE FOR RUDY WITH LIKE 30 GAMES LEFT and he missed several of them during that period too.

Bargnani, Jose, Dominic Mcguire, Allan Anderson, Mickeal Pietrus, JL3, Gray, were all starters or had significant roles at one point during the season last year. No this isn't the same team what so ever. In fact the starting line up that started the year is completely different than the one that finished with only the backcourt remaining the same.

I hate it when ppl just completely disregard the truth in order to validate something that is just wrong.

Lost all of those players to replace with Buycks (dleague) Psycho T (bench) and Steve Novak (all i do is 3) ..... right now we are a net negative as Jose Calderon by himself outplays all of our recent acquisitions. You can hate on bargnani but hes a better player then steve novak overall, AA + JL3 are serviceable bench players in this league, we are going with unproven dleague talent and a 3 ball specialist whos already peaked.

After the trade - Buycks will be better than anything JL3 or Telfair gave us, won't be any worse that's for sure.
- Psycho T is better than any big off the bench for us last yr(after the trade)
- Novak is basically bargnani, especially with how he played after the trade. Thing is Novak is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league.

Jose good player and all, were one of the reasons we started 4-19 and wasn't here after the trade.

[TheRealBlizzy]

You are just a complete liar when you say that. Please explain to me how this is the same team!! KEEP IN MIND WE MADE THE TRADE FOR RUDY WITH LIKE 30 GAMES LEFT and he missed several of them during that period too.

Bargnani, Jose, Dominic Mcguire, Allan Anderson, Mickeal Pietrus, JL3, Gray, were all starters or had significant roles at one point during the season last year. No this isn't the same team what so ever. In fact the starting line up that started the year is completely different than the one that finished with only the backcourt remaining the same.

I hate it when ppl just completely disregard the truth in order to validate something that is just wrong.

Lost all of those players to replace with Buycks (dleague) Psycho T (bench) and Steve Novak (all i do is 3) ..... right now we are a net negative as Jose Calderon by himself outplays all of our recent acquisitions. You can hate on bargnani but hes a better player then steve novak overall, AA + JL3 are serviceable bench players in this league, we are going with unproven dleague talent and a 3 ball specialist whos already peaked.

After the trade - Buycks will be better than anything JL3 or Telfair gave us, won't be any worse that's for sure.
- Psycho T is better than any big off the bench for us last yr(after the trade)
- Novak is basically bargnani, especially with how he played after the trade. Thing is Novak is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league.

Jose good player and all, were one of the reasons we started 4-19 and wasn't here after the trade.

Jose was the reason we went 4-19 thats why Jose carried our team to wins and took the job from Lowry after he came back from injury right?

[DreamTeam09]

Lost all of those players to replace with Buycks (dleague) Psycho T (bench) and Steve Novak (all i do is 3) ..... right now we are a net negative as Jose Calderon by himself outplays all of our recent acquisitions. You can hate on bargnani but hes a better player then steve novak overall, AA + JL3 are serviceable bench players in this league, we are going with unproven dleague talent and a 3 ball specialist whos already peaked.

After the trade - Buycks will be better than anything JL3 or Telfair gave us, won't be any worse that's for sure.
- Psycho T is better than any big off the bench for us last yr(after the trade)
- Novak is basically bargnani, especially with how he played after the trade. Thing is Novak is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league.

Jose good player and all, were one of the reasons we started 4-19 and wasn't here after the trade.

Jose was the reason we went 4-19 thats why Jose carried our team to wins and took the job from Lowry after he came back from injury right?

I said jose was one of the reasons we started 4-19. We were suppose to have one of the best pg duo's in the league last yr, but when lowry started out beasting, jose was lackluster off the bench as he usually is. Started pouting as a vet and didn't help to stop the bleeding. Then lowry went down, Jose went ham because he was all happy again that he was a starter by default.