The Tank Debate Thread

[Reg00]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Everyone loves Val, so picking him on my list was a deliberate cheery pick. But really, if his play develops than he and Gay themselves are worth 30 plus wins I think. Any improvements to coaching plans/teammates/etc can plus that number might blossom to 40+.

And even if all these developments don't end up with 40+ wins and we end up with a chance of a top 5 pick, then what happens if the Lotto just doesn't go our way? And lets say it does. Is Wiggins Jordan? He hasn't even played a game of college ball and we're giving him or any other top 5 guys the keys to the city. For every top 5 talent that goes well in the NBA there are lots that don't. Just seems a gamble to dump quality current NBA guys for. And outside of Wiggins (who would have obvious connections to the franchise) we are left with a rush to improve the team in order to make our top 5 pick happy. We just went through the Bosh era when he was given the keys of the city in order to bolt for super-team Miami.

I'm not totally sold on the current roster. Lots could change and I would still be interested. But I personally would be okay with a few years of 50+ wins. A 50+ team constantly trying to make it over the hump. Certainly as interesting as a few years of -30 wins and hoping that our big name draft pick decides to stay after his rookie contract is up.

This team is not a fifty win team. What happens if Lowry and Gay leave? Then what? Even if they don't leave, how can we afford to surround them with the talent necessary to become a 50 win team?

James freakin' Harden wasn't worth fifteen wins by himself (12.8 this year), and you're expecting Rudy and Jonas to be worth 15+ wins each? That would mean the Raptors would have two MVP candidates which, to put it bluntly, Rudy and (likely) Jonas will never be. Rudy's career high in win-shares is exactly half of what James Harden's was this year.

Do you know what a restricted free-agent is? Are you aware that this big-name draft pick has to stay with the team if that team decides to match whatever offer they agreed to with another team? Rookies have a four year entry contract (two of those years being team option years) with their drafted team. Following this contract, if the player is worth it, a max contract (which no other team could match) could be offered. Even if the player signs a offer-sheet with another team, you have the option to match that contract. This gives you nine years of control.

So... you were saying?

So now everyone is worried that Gay will leave? Make up you minds guys. If anything in two years he makes less money and he becomes less of a problem salary cap wise. He also seems to enjoy Toronto and his fans.

Also, if it was so easy to keep your draft picks, then they would be kept. But they aren't, for a variety of reasons outside of simple money considerations. Just pay attention to the the multitude of high draft picks who leave their team after their rookie contract is up. Or force their way out of town via sign and trade. As a Raptor fan then you should be aware of our personal experience in keeping draft picks and players around.

And I think we all see where i am going with my general thoughts. That I do like Gay more then others and don't think we should trade him away for nothing in the blind hopes that we win a lottery. I think he with the right team around him could get 50 wins.

[LoveMyRaps]

And another thing, there are a few ways for this team to take another step forward. If we land a top flight pf, then yeah we'll be in contender status. LMA / Klove / Horford all puts this team at another stage to compete, so lets not pretend draft picks are the only way to improve, trades happen all the times. All we have to do is be the beneficiary one more time of a team like Memphis who want's to go in a different direction.

"Top flight PF"?? AARON GORDON, JULIUS RANDLE, ETC

[chrisanna]

Hold on a sec.. your saying we arent even on par with Atlanta???? Al Horford, Jeff Teague, and Paul Millsap. Teague isnt even that good yet and Millsap is good but is not light years better than Rudy or DeMar or even Amir. Toronto is a better team than Atlanta for sure.

[chrisanna]

Also...who are these PG's and SF's and SG's we will aquire that are better than what we have?

[northernlight]

Have read most of the tank/no tank posts over the last several months. I think the extreme positions have mellowed somewhat but the two camps remain far apart. Not sure where my position fits or misfits anymore.

When the debate started I was anti-tank because the way it was presented was to use any means possible to lose on purpose. This included giving away decent players for nothing, sitting players with fake injuries and having the coach play games with the lineup to lose games. This I could not support then nor do I support it now. I think tankers have backed off from these positions for the most part.

I think our team is beyond tinkering with. Even though I think that if a capable GM uses all the tools available.....draft, trades, free agent signing and development of existing assets, we need a tear-down and restart. Trading our players without giving them away will be difficult and take time. Capable opposing GMs will not be lining up to give us picks and prospects (recent picks). How can we play hard and not throw games but tear it apart in time for next year's draft?

I don't mind a temporary terrible record incidental to legit tear-down but without throwing games. But how do you get it done by next June?

[chrisanna]

2 guys? Who are the ETC.????

[suntzuballin]

LOL.. in that video Randle looks like he`s playing against grade 4 children.. what a size discrepancy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqaMioXegU[/youtube]

Here's a video of him with his AAU team. The competition definitely looks better, but the guy is still really dominating. I was watching some videos of Bosh his senior year...and Randle is head and shoulders above him in a lot of aspects at the same age. Randle is shorter, but has a better overall frame and there is still room for him to grow.

And this

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybc5YxhNi-E[/youtube]

thats why raptors should!! tank it but imo masai will look on how it goes first 12-15 games our so that wouldnt hurt the raptors chances for top 7-8 chances in this draft to see what he should do like trade gay and lowery to whatever option he has been holding out on.

[chrisanna]

Who is Lowery? come on dude

[chrisanna]

Anyone who opposes tanking is a stupid, moronic, imbecilic, idiot, dimwit, numbskull, braindead, nincompoop, mental midget.

YOU'RE a hooker!!!! and also i hope that pic isnt you cuz it looks like every word you just said

[UneducatedFan86]

thats why raptors should!! tank it but imo masai will look on how it goes first 12-15 games our so that wouldnt hurt the raptors chances for top 7-8 chances in this draft to see what he should do like trade gay and lowery to whatever option he has been holding out on.

I totally agree. I don't think we should just trade away anyone to tank, but if we can get good/great assets back...you do it. This draft isn't a one horse race..it's, potentially, got a TON of good players and any of them could come in an help the Raptors out. It will be a lot of fun to see what happens the rest of the offseason.

[akakalakin]

exactly Wiggins+scrubs still equals 15 wins

[SkywalkerAC]

We could very well be 10 wins better than the Hawks this season.

[orangutooth]

.http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40055/does-tanking-even-work

this is one of the stupidest articles i've ever read

this guy said that duncan, jordan and bird all don't count because the team added other players and olajuwon doesn't count because jordan was out of the league.

i like how he says the spurs already had a good team before getting duncan with the number 1 pick. does he forget how they got david robinson?

his definition of tanking is to get a top player in the draft but not to add any other players. if the pelicans win a championship in a couple years, he'd say it won't count because they added good supporting players. if lebron gets injured and the thunder win a title that won't count either. lol.

he would say mami doesn't count because they added oneal the first time and lebron the second time. i wonder why they were able to get players that wanted to be on that team. just maybe because they were really bad one year and had the 5th pick?

plus i think the main thing isn't necessarily to win the championship but to put yourself in a contending position. look at the mavs, they were a team that was close to getting to the finals for a decade and finally won it. i want to be a team like that. like the jazz used to be, even, they were always close. anyway whatever, i'm just saying lets tank to get some superstar talent rather than banking on lasik md.

[Chevy Chase]

Looks like this is a lonely place. Pro-tank is at page 20 and we would still be on page 4 if it weren't for all the pro-tank trolling. At least we have MU on our side (for now).

[StMikes31]

We could very well be 10 wins better than the Hawks this season.

You are underrating the Hawks by a large margin. If anything, they got better since Milsap is a better fit than Smith.

The only way we somehow finish better than them is if the whole team gets injured and we are 100% healthy.

[West Rouge]

say what u want about BC but he left us with jonas, gay, demar, amir, ross, and lowry...a starting lineup and core of talented character guys, all 21-27...and left with no bad contract other than fields

Agree to a point. BC left us off with no cap flexibility and this core is far from contending material. And just to add BC left no draft picks to add to the young core. BC sold fans on hope and that's all this lineup is. It was to sell enough hope to save his job. Problem is the fans have seen in the past that BC has failed to build upon the promising young rosters he helps construct

Anyhow,my hope all along is that MU can take the pieces/contracts that fit and restructure us into a contender. Otherwise like many point out the only other option is to blow up this motha up and tank hard.

I like Option#1 because i agree with you that we have some good pieces. But BC has left MU with a difficult task to build on the core. Although I hold out hope.

Option#2 I can accept because i know this team might stumble out of the gate and Lowry could be gone next year as well Gay is expiring next season & not only might not re-sign but also is a great trade chip at that point.

[Raps in 4]

"The Craig Ehlo of teams". That's been my favorite thing a Tanker ever has written, well done.


Right now the oldest members of our core are 27 years old. Gay and Lowry. Everybody else is a under that. So I guess my point is that if the team as currently constructed wins 50 games and gets to the playoffs it would be pretty exciting. Plus it would likely mean huge strides from Ross/Demar/Val. So that's pretty great.

Age doesn't matter. Potential does. How many players on this team have star potential?

It's also laughable that you still consider Demar at 24 a prospect (even though he's shown almost no signs of meaningful improvement in 4 seasons).

[Troubadour]

We have to tank in 2015, too, so we can get Jahlil Okafor. 2016 might also have a great prospect, so let's tank that year, as well. There's also no knowing who might be out there in 2017. Let's tank every year!

[TheRealBlizzy]

We have to tank in 2015, too, so we can get Jahlil Okafor. 2016 might also have a great prospect, so let's tank that year, as well. There's also no knowing who might be out there in 2017. Let's tank every year!

good point, 10/10 post.

[Reignman]

We should just lock this thread up until a big move happens because it doesn't seem like we're tanking at this point.

Now if the team falls flat on it's face to start it might be time to revisit but as of this moment this thread is just wishful thinking.