Drummond+Pope for Rondo+ Jeff Green...does Dumars say yes?

[robbie84]

I'm a Celtics fan. The Rondo for Drummond talk has been lurking and it's got me thinking. I'd like to hear the Pistons fans side of the argument to this. I think both our fanbases would severely underrate each others players. But have a read if you want and vote in the poll. I think such a trade makes the Pistons a serious threat that has to be worth more than Drummonds 'potential'. But I'm a Celtics fan so that could be shaping my logic. I'd like some Pistons focused logic. Anyway, just remember I'm a Celtics fan and I mean no harm- I don't mind honesty either. If you won't trade Drummond for anyone, how do you think Detroit could be come a contender if he doesn't pan out? Please vote.

The Pistons want Rondo. Ainge knows this.
Ainge wants to move Rondo and Dumars knows this.
Classic trade baiting/stand off here. Danny's too tough for Joe D in the long run because eventually the offers will come in from other teams for Rondo so Dumars has a tough few months ahead.
His biggest dilemma is that Ainge is going to demand Drummond. Nothing less. He'll get more than that from some teams and that's regardless of whether or not you think Rondo is worth Drummond etc...because I think you can argue that other execs in the NBA will give up more than Drummond for Rondo..no matter how overrated you think Rondo is.

Danny would love this squad to hit rock bottom to maximize our opportunity cost in the lottery in 2014 and 2015. Keeping Rondo at the moment just doesn't make sense with only 2 years on his deal and no franchise free agents coming up until 2015 (unless you think Lebron or Carmelo would come to Boston in 2014). By the time those free agents come around, Rondo could be completely frustrated/fed up with the organization at his lack of a contending team and want out- then add in the luck needed to sign those free agents ahead of the other major markets who already have superstars/franchise guys.
It's win win for Danny but he definitely doesn't want to just give Rondo away- he needs to get maximum value and Dumars knows this.

Dumar's biggest conflict is the immediate impact that Rondo brings. Taking Detroit from 7th or 8th seed to the top 4-6 teams in the East or higher if everything transitions nicely. Top 4 this season in the East will be brutal (Miami, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana) but they'd be a good shot against any of them after a season of playing together.

Dumars has to weigh this up against the ceiling of Drummond and how quickly he'd possibly reach his peak/potential.
They've got Smith locked up for 4 years so that should be plenty of time to get the best out of Drummond while Smith and Monroe are there, especially with Caldwell Pope coming in now.

That's the million dollar question for Dumars... Is Rondo's impact over 4 or 5 years in his prime from age 27-32 whilst they have Smith and Monroe there- enough to make them a serious contender for that period? Keep in mind that we have the Heat and Bulls in the East for the next 2-3 years and with the 2015 free agency class who knows how good other ECF teams will be. His phone a friend question is...is Drummonds unreached potential enough to turn down a trade for a top 3 All Star point guard? Consider Rondo's game and how well he complements athletic guys like Monroe and Smith in transition and the pick and roll/around the basket. Rondo's passing is exactly what they need.

Dumars has the chance to put a contender on the floor now. They'll need 1-2 more pieces because there isn't a franchise guy but a scorer and a shooter or two would be the best pieces obviously. They'd be similar to the 2004 Pistons who had no true franchise guy but a starting 5 of very good, potential All Star talents and All Stars that put their heart and soul into defense and teamwork- because of the lack of a franchise guy it's still very risky and both Monroe and Smith would have to take their games to another level-but with Rondo that may be possible.

I believe Ainge has the upper hand in this one as he often does. If Drummond is a bust and he fails to land Rondo because he was banking on Drummonds potential then again he's the laughing stock GM that failed to give Smith/Caldwell Pope/Monroe the right point guard or 4th key piece. (he might be used to the terrible GM label by now?)

Trading for Rondo only makes them a better team and takes much of the guess work out of everything for Detroit.

Now I'll gloat and say that in the past I've suggested Dumars would go after Rondo because he loves him and his toughness. From one champion NBA guard to another he knows what Rondo brings on the court and in the locker room with his championship pedigree and Kevin Garnett inspired approach to winning.
Do you really give that up for a sophomore who's at least 2-3 seasons from scratching his potential (if it's still there at all?). That's a very difficult situation but ultimately you'd have to figure that Dumars pulls the trigger.

I'd ignore the Brandon Knight for Rondo stuff. It's complete crap and Ainge would rather shoot himself than take Knight back without any picks. I mean he'd at least ask for Knight and Caldwell Pope (2013 lottery pick shooting guard). It's posturing by Dumars to bring down Rondo's value as Ainge shops him.

I have touched on this before but I think the perfect trade for the 'tank' path of a rebuild would be to make the trade a double whammy that gives Dumars no option but to say yes.
This happens by adding Jeff Green into the mix and giving them something like: (salaries aren't perfect but you could make them match)
Rondo
Jeff Green
Brandon Bass
Nets 2014 or 16' pick

for

Drummond
Caldwell Pope
Jonas Jerebko
Charlie Villeneuva's albatross contract

Adding Jeff Green makes the Pistons a true contender in the vein of the 2004 Pistons. Adding a very good starting caliber small forward that gives them shooting and defensive improvements who's still getting better as a starter. He also runs the floor with Rondo and Smith like a horse and gives them the most athletic 1,3,4,5 combo in the NBA with Monroe, and arguably the toughest defensive starting 5 depending who they sign at the SG. Biggest thing about Green is his defense and rapidly improving game in the past season after heart surgery. he can guard any small forward in the East and score on any small forward. Check out his stats from last year- at 9 million for another 3 years he's turning into a very friendly contract.

They must add a serious three point shooter to the mix with a shooting guard. (JJ Reddick would've been perfect but someone like Quincy Pondexter would be great too), so Green and this shooting guard could create space inside and force teams to honor the three.

This trade is perfect for us because we get Drummond and Caldwell Pope (and Jerebko). We lose our two best players but if we are trading Rondo does it really matter if we are trading Jeff Green for another lottery pick and securing Drummond for the rebuild? Each Celtics fan has their own opinion about that but the reason this works is because as they say...
"when both fan bases of the trading teams think their team got robbed in a trade then it was probably very good value for both teams involved".
This is the case of such a trade. Many Celtics fans will scream highway robbery- but this certainly wouldn't be the case given Drummond's potential and Caldwell Pope's NCAA efficiency numbers. Both huge potential NBA talents.
Combine this with the timing of our roster blow up and the 2014 and 2015 drafts approaching then and it isn't hard to foresee why Ainge would want such a deal to occur.

Pistons fans will scream highway robbery as well after the 'potential' they gave away in Drummond and Pope, and how bad of a shooter Rondo is, and how he only cares about winning in the playoffs. How soft Jeff Green is and how he's never going to be a consistent player... But once they see the product on the floor and are exposed to the talent of Green and Rondo next to Monroe and Smith they'll be very happy. I know as a Celtics fan I would happily go down the road of that team instead of blowing it up.
It's just a shame the Celtics aren't in a position to put 2 guys like Josh Smith and Monroe next to Green and Rondo.
I mean Sully or Olynyk maybe the perfect fit in 2 or 3 years time but it's just too far away with Rondo and Green's deals coming to an end around that time. They could both stink and never be anywhere near Monroe's level as a starting big man. We just don't know.
The reason this trade works is because it's exactly what both teams need in their current situation.

With all speculation as have laid out here, please remember we don't know what Ainge is going to do, but there's a high likelyhood that he is shopping Rondo- and if he does want to trade Rondo, keeping Green doesn't make that much sense either.
All I know is that Ainge has the upper hand in such a trade and Dumars saying that Drummond is simply not available is simply false.

Disclaimer: This isn't really a trade idea, it's more of a reasoning behind why such a trade would occur and how it may unfold. So take it as you will and please vote because it's great to gauge the hardcore Celtics fan base when we are faced with a road filled with tough decisions ahead.
I'll add that I am a pro tanker and in favor of chasing the 2014 and 2015 NBA drafts for talent given the Celtics current cap/roster situation.

[Umbra]

Drummond is untouchable.

[Blkbrd671]

Easily say no,

1.) Dre is untouchable
2.) Knight would be going out not pope
3.) Jeff Green does not have a ton of crazy value.

[So_cal_piston]

Sorry, but personally I would sit in the corner of my room, in the dark, and cry for days if joe traded dre for rajon in any way shape or form.

[robbie84]

Easily say no,

1.) Dre is untouchable
2.) Knight would be going out not pope
3.) Jeff Green does not have a ton of crazy value.

You don't think this trade makes Detroit an immediate contender in the East?
The risk is giving up Drummond but the reward is fielding a contender....I'd argue that Jeff Green at 9 million a year is very good value. Check out his stats from the 2nd half of last season as a starter (less than a year after heart surgery).
It took Green some time to get comfortable and consistent with the Celtics, but he's been playing the best basketball of his career over the second half of the season. In the last 39 games, he averaged 16.5 points and 4.7 rebounds per contest, shooting 49.7 percent from the field and 43.1 percent from the three-point line
Dude is ballin and this doesn't reflect his defensive impact.

[Umbra]

Easily say no,

1.) Dre is untouchable
2.) Knight would be going out not pope
3.) Jeff Green does not have a ton of crazy value.

You don't think this trade makes Detroit an immediate contender in the East?
The risk is giving up Drummond but the reward is fielding a contender....I'd argue that Jeff Green at 9 million a year is very good value. Check out his stats from the 2nd half of last season as a starter (less than a year after heart surgery).
It took Green some time to get comfortable and consistent with the Celtics, but he's been playing the best basketball of his career over the second half of the season. In the last 39 games, he averaged 16.5 points and 4.7 rebounds per contest, shooting 49.7 percent from the field and 43.1 percent from the three-point line
Dude is ballin and this doesn't reflect his defensive impact.

Mama always said never trade bigs for smalls.

[retrolenny]

It's not that Rondo and Green wouldn't help Det become a REALLY good team. It's because you do not trade someone who is 19 years old, considered to be raw, who is already (AT WORST) Ben Wallace defensively but 40lbs heavier, 4" taller, VERY coachable, and significantly more athletic for 2 dudes who are older, been injured and one a diva. Sorry bud... NEVER going to happen. EVERY Piston would boycott The Piston org if Dre was involved in any trade that didn't include Bron or Durant in return!!!

[Brapman]

No. I wouldn't trade Drummond for any player in the league except Lebron and Durant.

Dre has a chance to be a top 3 our 5 player in this league. He's THE chance for the pistons to win a championship. Getting Rondo for him would kill all championship hopes. Rondo is not a top 3 or 5 player. Portion period.

[DBC10]

The long-term potential of Dre far outweighs any immediate contention status IMO. We have probably one of the top if not the top in his prime, center that we can build around for years to come.

Sorry, I know Dre is coveted, but since you guys want him so bad, that's enough reason to not give him to you. No way.

Sent from my Nexus 4

[JustinSane]

I'm fairly confident Dumars wouldn't trade Drummond for anything less than Durant or Lebron. Drummond is most likely, contrary to your believe, totally unavailable. Personally I agree with that position. While there is a risk that Drummond fails to reach his potential, there is also a risk that Rondo never fully recovers from his injury and/or kills his locker room. There's a reason a top 5 PG has been in trade rumors for years - he's not the easiest guy to work with. Given that there is risk on both sides, it's stupid to trade big for small and young for older.

[retrolenny]

I think if it you wanted Dre you would have to start with a package of Rondo, Green & 2 unprotected draft picks. I HIGHLY doubt Ainge would consider that and to be honest with you, I think Det looks at it and passes too. Dre is going to dominate this league. He's a total phenom and you don's just give that away.

[dan2314]

didnt even read any of the other options, went straight for the one that took note that drummond is too good to trade right now. theres a chance he becomes a top 10 or top 5 player, and when a top 5 player is a big, you dont trade them for anyone. not saying i wouldnt trade for a top 5 player right now, because i probably would, since so many things can go wrong between now and then, but then you still might end up regretting that, which is why there is no way i would do it for rondo who might not even be a good fit in the first place. i really like KCP too though. sorry, but drummonds not becoming a celtic anytime soon.

[bardobeing]

Drummond has the potential to be the perfect combination of Shaq (size and strength) and Dwight (speed and athleticism). THAT scary potential is untradable and untouchable IMO. In a couple of seasons, this will be Dre's team. He will be the identity and face of the Detroit Pistons in very short order.

[rmfc]

Dumars says, "F No!".

[Liqourish]

Drummond is untouchable. Period.

[The Penguin]

1) The Drummond for Rondo talk is only "lurking" because Bill Simmons keeps throwing it out there.
2) I've never heard an $8 million dollar expiring described as an "albatross contract"
3) We wouldn't give you Drummond & expirings for Rondo + Jeff Green, you think we need to throw KCP in as well?
4) I think Joe is set on the Drummond/Monroe/Smith group, I'm sure the best we would offer would be $16.5 mil in expirings (Stuckey/CV), Knight, another fringe young guy like Singler or Middleton, '18 1st rounder and taking back some bad contracts.

Basically my counter to you is:

Stuckey ($8.5 mil exp), CV31 (8 mil exp), Knight, Singler, '18 1st for Rondo, Gerald Wallace, Courtney Lee

I think that's the best the Pistons can do. If you can find someone else willing to give you a better package of expirings/young talent AND willing to take back Wallace then well played. Otherwise I don't think there's any reason to give up Drummond or Monroe.

[Redeemed]

Rondo is damaged goods with a poison pill contract. His best days are in the past with the big three and Doc Rivers. There's no way anyone in there right mind would trade Drummond for Rondo.

I'll give you Stuckey and a future second rounder for your injured pg who may not return to form after his ACL injury.

[Mikez1919]

Absolutely not. I'm 50/50 on a Monroe for Rondo trade, but I'm 100% against a Drummond for Rondo trade.

[ElectricMayhem]

(Drummond) who is already (AT WORST) Ben Wallace defensively

This is a wild exaggeration. Everything else in this thread by Piston fans is dead on.

[rmfc]

Insert <God, No!> gif here.