The Tank Debate Thread

[hillbilly hare]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

[Reignman]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

Well, put it this way, if everything you listed happens (ie goes wrong) then Masai won't have to do anything because we'll be auto-tanking.

[Raps in 4]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

Well, put it this way, if everything you listed happens (ie goes wrong) then Masai won't have to do anything because we'll be auto-tanking.

No, we'll be in the 30-35 win range again.

[TheRealBlizzy]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

Well, put it this way, if everything you listed happens (ie goes wrong) then Masai won't have to do anything because we'll be auto-tanking.

Well what he said would happen is based on historical data and if everything were to happen the way you think it will that would me that everything has gone exceptionally right. I would classify his prediction as things going to plan, if we end up with a Rudy Gay or JV injury, then you can start saying things went wrong this season.

That's like saying Cleveland's season went wrong because Bynum and Kyrie missed games do to injury ... no ****, they get injured a lot, that's what you take along with those players.

It's so funny how you guys think Psycho T + Novak + Buycks > Bargnani + Ed Davis + Jose Calderon .... and that this change will produce an outcome of + 20-30 wins...

Houston last season won 45 games, added Dwight Howard, and their fans are hopeful for the WCF, predicting 50-60 wins. If dwight adds 15 games how do people expect our changes to add 20-30 based on organic growth. In that case Houston will win 82.

[Raps in 4]

It's so funny how you guys think Psycho T + Novak + Buycks > Bargnani + Ed Davis + Jose Calderon .... and that this change will produce an outcome of + 20-30 wins...

Dude, you're discounting the value of organic growth. Gay and Lowry are still very young (only 27) and will no doubt improve their games next season. Demar at 24 is basically still a high schooler. The sky's the limit for him. Factor in the all-NBA talents you listed above, and this roster will be at least 38 wins better than they were last year.

[Reignman]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

Well, put it this way, if everything you listed happens (ie goes wrong) then Masai won't have to do anything because we'll be auto-tanking.

No, we'll be in the 30-35 win range again.

So if everything goes wrong we're 30-35?

That means, if things go normally we're 35-40?

If things go well, we're 40-45?

Not bad, I'll talk those numbers easily for this season.

[Reignman]

It isn't tanking if you're a perennial losing team. Which we are. Thanks to Clownangelo.

He sold the farm on his way out the door, used almost all of our valuable resources, to put together a LOSING team. As much as the people who want to "win now" think the roster is "pretty good", remember that we lost almost 60% of our games last year.

Why should the team be much better this year? Apart from Jonas, who's going to be the game changer? Are we once again, our 4th off-season in a row, hoping that Demar "turns the corner"? Our potential-filled shooting guard who can neither shoot nor guard? Are we resting our playoff hopes on the more injured than not Lowry, who has played above average ball for 2.5 of his 7 seasons in the league? Who is the real Kyle Lowry? I think most win now folk put their hopes on Rudy Gay being a LOT better than he was last year, but honestly, he played right at the highest level he's ever played it, which has consistently been in the 19-20 ppg / 5.5-6.5 rpg and shooting around 45% / 33-35% from 3 / 78-80% from the line. Last year his 3pt shooting was down (.336% here) and his FT shooting was way up (86%). He actually had a pretty typical Gay year and he has been pretty consistent his entire career. Are the maybe 1-2 extra ppg going to be a difference maker?

The other thing to keep in mind is that we are also going to be without a few guys who contributed a fair bit to the team the last couple years, if only as backups playing big minutes, i.e. Jose, Ed Davis and Andrea. Jose in particular. Who takes over the helm of the Raptor Playoff Express when Lowry starts getting his minor injuries? Who plays the 16 mpg backing up Amir at PF, when his production starts to decline above 32 mpg? That's a lot of minutes to cover and we no longer have the luxury of having Amir come off the bench for Ed or Andrea.

This is still Team Mediocrity. If everything goes as well as it can, if everybody has a best-case scenario play out, we are a 40-44 win team. With possibly a one-year window, to boot.

It isn't tanking if your moves are designed to add MORE talent to a team lacking talent. We have good-looking but flawed players making a ton of money, so trading them for picks and/or young prospects, and at the same time creating cap space, that gives us 3 ways to add better talent to the team than the guys going out in those deals, guys who have, up to this point in time, shown that they are NOT going to be star-level talents or serious game changers.

Well, put it this way, if everything you listed happens (ie goes wrong) then Masai won't have to do anything because we'll be auto-tanking.

Well what he said would happen is based on historical data and if everything were to happen the way you think it will that would me that everything has gone exceptionally right. I would classify his prediction as things going to plan, if we end up with a Rudy Gay or JV injury, then you can start saying things went wrong this season.

That's like saying Cleveland's season went wrong because Bynum and Kyrie missed games do to injury ... no ****, they get injured a lot, that's what you take along with those players.

It's so funny how you guys think Psycho T + Novak + Buycks > Bargnani + Ed Davis + Jose Calderon .... and that this change will produce an outcome of + 20-30 wins...

Houston last season won 45 games, added Dwight Howard, and their fans are hopeful for the WCF, predicting 50-60 wins. If dwight adds 15 games how do people expect our changes to add 20-30 based on organic growth. In that case Houston will win 82.

You must have quoted the wrong person. All I said was that if everything goes as you guys are predicting then we'll be in auto-tank mode and Masai won't have to do anything.

On the flip side, my hope that we'll be a lower seed playoff team is based on the small sample of data available post-Rudy trade and my own subjective projections of individual players for next season. That's not my optimistic view, that's my realistic view.

If I gave you my optimistic view your head would explode. Imagine JV taking a big step, Demar adding a legit 3, Gay playing to career norms and Lowry building on his play to end the year? Wow, if everything "breaks right" for the Raps we might be fighting for home court. That's the optimistic view but I don't want to go there.

[Reignman]

It's so funny how you guys think Psycho T + Novak + Buycks > Bargnani + Ed Davis + Jose Calderon .... and that this change will produce an outcome of + 20-30 wins...

Dude, you're discounting the value of organic growth. Gay and Lowry are still very young (only 27) and will no doubt improve their games next season. Demar at 24 is basically still a high schooler. The sky's the limit for him. Factor in the all-NBA talents you listed above, and this roster will be at least 38 wins better than they were last year.

You forgot JV breaking out and Ross taking a big step. Oh yeah, chemistry, that's huge too. And how could I forget Casey having a full training camp with this starting lineup, that could pay huge dividends.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Grow up dude.

A lot of these anti-tankers think a core of Lowry, Gay and Demar can actually work when we all know it wont. You got Reignman who admitted he just wants a treadmill team and has no hope. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this board. People think we aren't trading these guys and we should keep adding to it which is laughable because 2/3 of them can leave at the end of the year. We are not winning 40+ wins this year, the bubble teams in the East improved a lot and Casey is still the coach.

What's funny is you are against tanking and don't want to trade these guys for expirings and garbage(i agree with) but yet you agree with getting the best possible package that will probably include picks/young players. Not for anything, but both those moves are tanking moves. So basically in the end you admit you want to tank.

Kind of but not really, I only want to dump Lowry and Gay if we suck because chances are they wont want to resign here, but again only Masai can make that judgement call because he deals with their agents.

You on the other hand have just admitted that if the Raptors are on pace to win 40+ this year that we should not trade away our core. Try posting that in a tank thread and see the responses. You my friend, are an anti-tanker

Kind of but not really?

We will suck, that's what you're not getting. We aren't touching MIA-IND-BRK-CHI-NY-ATL. Washington, Detroit, Atlanta and Cleveland all got better than us as well. At the VERY best we are a 7-12 team in the East with a team that is maxed out cap wise. There is no other options but to trade your core especially when 2 of them can walk at the end of the year.

Seriously, I don't think you can actually read because I just said we have to trade Gay and Lowry since both have the options of walking at the end of the year. Even if the Raptors are a .500 team come the deadline, Masai is still going to trade them because again we aren't going anywhere with them.

You my friend, are a tanker. Just come out of the closet.

The **** are you going on about here bud.

First you say so matter of factly that we will suck and list all the teams that are for sure better then us, then you say we are at best a 7th seed. Which is it? If youre answer is 7th-12th seed then that means you dont know if we will suck either.

If we are a 12th seed on paper then we dont need to trade anyone on our team to suck, we will already suck and end up with a high draft pick. We can trade players for other reasons, such as Gay who MIGHT not want to sign with a 12 seed team, but trading them jsut so we can suck is not needed.

On the other hand, if we are a 7th seed at the trade deadline, then you do not trade Gay/Lowry or anyone for that matter simply so we can suck. Thats very different from wanting to trade Gay/Lowry just so we can suck this year for Wiggins.

Its very simple mate, IF CV + Stuckey or even Stuckey + CV + 2nd round pick + Kravstov is the best deal you get for Rudy, then you do not trade him because its better to keep him for the year then trade him. If you believe that you are an anti-tanker, if you dont you are pro-tank. Which do you believe?

[Rhettmatic]

Since both tank threads have become arguments between the anti- and pro-tank people, there's really no point in having separate threads. So please contain your tanking arguments to this thread.

[StMikes31]

Kind of but not really, I only want to dump Lowry and Gay if we suck because chances are they wont want to resign here, but again only Masai can make that judgement call because he deals with their agents.

You on the other hand have just admitted that if the Raptors are on pace to win 40+ this year that we should not trade away our core. Try posting that in a tank thread and see the responses. You my friend, are an anti-tanker

Kind of but not really?

We will suck, that's what you're not getting. We aren't touching MIA-IND-BRK-CHI-NY-ATL. Washington, Detroit, Atlanta and Cleveland all got better than us as well. At the VERY best we are a 7-12 team in the East with a team that is maxed out cap wise. There is no other options but to trade your core especially when 2 of them can walk at the end of the year.

Seriously, I don't think you can actually read because I just said we have to trade Gay and Lowry since both have the options of walking at the end of the year. Even if the Raptors are a .500 team come the deadline, Masai is still going to trade them because again we aren't going anywhere with them.

You my friend, are a tanker. Just come out of the closet.

The **** are you going on about here bud.

First you say so matter of factly that we will suck and list all the teams that are for sure better then us, then you say we are at best a 7th seed. Which is it? If youre answer is 7th-12th seed then that means you dont know if we will suck either.

If we are a 12th seed on paper then we dont need to trade anyone on our team to suck, we will already suck and end up with a high draft pick. We can trade players for other reasons, such as Gay who MIGHT not want to sign with a 12 seed team, but trading them jsut so we can suck is not needed.

On the other hand, if we are a 7th seed at the trade deadline, then you do not trade Gay/Lowry or anyone for that matter simply so we can suck. Thats very different from wanting to trade Gay/Lowry just so we can suck this year for Wiggins.

Its very simple mate, IF CV + Stuckey or even Stuckey + CV + 2nd round pick + Kravstov is the best deal you get for Rudy, then you do not trade him because its better to keep him for the year then trade him. If you believe that you are an anti-tanker, if you dont you are pro-tank. Which do you believe?

Don't get mad because you don't know what the hell you're saying and then start to put words in my mouth. You don't understand and that's fine.

But here it goes one more time;

Right now we are a bubble team with 6 teams better than us and teams like Cleveland, Washington, Detroit all improved. Again as I said, at the VERY best if everything goes right (no injuries, good coaching, guys performing) and those 3 teams have major injuries while we don't, I could see them getting the 7th seed (which isn't something to be jumping up and down about). We're still a treadmill team with not much upside with the current core. I don't know what you're not getting here.

However though, the likely scenario (if this core stays intact) is that this team pulls another BC and finishes with 30-35 wins which is the worst possible scenario if you haven't noticed.

And again since you've been clueless, WE HAVE 2 CORE GUYS WHO CAN LEAVE at the end of the year; there's going to be a trade involving them. We cannot lose them for nothing. The Bargnani deal got more value then the one you just presented and both Lowry and Gay have a lot more, so I'm confident Masai can pull off a decent deal.

[Troubadour]

We could very well be 10 wins better than the Hawks this season.

You are underrating the Hawks by a large margin. If anything, they got better since Milsap is a better fit than Smith.

The only way we somehow finish better than them is if the whole team gets injured and we are 100% healthy.

How'd they get better? Their frontcourt has an average height of 6'8 1/2". They are going to be severely overpowered in the post.

Teague vs Lowry
Lowry is the better player. Teague may have more potential, but he hasn't put it all together just yet.

Williams vs DeRozan
Neither player is especially efficient. DeRozan is bigger, more athletic, and can defend his position better than Williams.

Korver vs Gay
Rudy Gay. Please.

Milsap vs Johnson
Milsap is the much better player.

Horford vs Valanciunas
Horford is a 4. He will continue to struggle against the Hibberts and Howards of the league. Valanciunas won't be better this year, but he will be very soon.

If it was a playoff series, the Raptors would win in 5-6.

[StMikes31]

We could very well be 10 wins better than the Hawks this season.

You are underrating the Hawks by a large margin. If anything, they got better since Milsap is a better fit than Smith.

The only way we somehow finish better than them is if the whole team gets injured and we are 100% healthy.

How'd they get better? Their frontcourt has an average height of 6'8 1/2". They are going to be severely overpowered in the post.

Teague vs Lowry
Lowry is the better player. Teague may have more potential, but he hasn't put it all together just yet.

Williams vs DeRozan
Neither player is especially efficient. DeRozan is bigger, more athletic, and can defend his position better than Williams.

Korver vs Gay
Rudy Gay. Please.

Milsap vs Johnson
Milsap is the much better player.

Horford vs Valanciunas
Horford is a 4. He will continue to struggle against the Hibberts and Howards of the league. Valanciunas won't be better this year, but he will be very soon.

If it was a playoff series, the Raptors would win in 5-6.

Please just stop.

This reminds me of how we underrated the Hawks last season and said the Raps would overtake them.

We would not beat them in a 7 game series let alone in the standings. Please stop overrating this team.

[Troubadour]

You are underrating the Hawks by a large margin. If anything, they got better since Milsap is a better fit than Smith.

The only way we somehow finish better than them is if the whole team gets injured and we are 100% healthy.

How'd they get better? Their frontcourt has an average height of 6'8 1/2". They are going to be severely overpowered in the post.

Teague vs Lowry
Lowry is the better player. Teague may have more potential, but he hasn't put it all together just yet.

Williams vs DeRozan
Neither player is especially efficient. DeRozan is bigger, more athletic, and can defend his position better than Williams.

Korver vs Gay
Rudy Gay. Please.

Milsap vs Johnson
Milsap is the much better player.

Horford vs Valanciunas
Horford is a 4. He will continue to struggle against the Hibberts and Howards of the league. Valanciunas won't be better this year, but he will be very soon.

If it was a playoff series, the Raptors would win in 5-6.

Please just stop.

This reminds me of how we underrated the Hawks last season and said the Raps would overtake them.

We would not beat them in a 7 game series let alone in the standings. Please stop overrating this team.

People are going to realize how good Josh Smith is when the Hawks struggle.

[StMikes31]

How'd they get better? Their frontcourt has an average height of 6'8 1/2". They are going to be severely overpowered in the post.

Teague vs Lowry
Lowry is the better player. Teague may have more potential, but he hasn't put it all together just yet.

Williams vs DeRozan
Neither player is especially efficient. DeRozan is bigger, more athletic, and can defend his position better than Williams.

Korver vs Gay
Rudy Gay. Please.

Milsap vs Johnson
Milsap is the much better player.

Horford vs Valanciunas
Horford is a 4. He will continue to struggle against the Hibberts and Howards of the league. Valanciunas won't be better this year, but he will be very soon.

If it was a playoff series, the Raptors would win in 5-6.

Please just stop.

This reminds me of how we underrated the Hawks last season and said the Raps would overtake them.

We would not beat them in a 7 game series let alone in the standings. Please stop overrating this team.

People are going to realize how good Josh Smith is when the Hawks struggle.

No they are not. Paul Milsapp is arguably the better player and better fit for that team.

[Troubadour]

Please just stop.

This reminds me of how we underrated the Hawks last season and said the Raps would overtake them.

We would not beat them in a 7 game series let alone in the standings. Please stop overrating this team.

People are going to realize how good Josh Smith is when the Hawks struggle.

No they are not. Paul Milsapp is arguably the better player and better fit for that team.

He is not the better player. Don't kid yourself. Milsapp is a fine player, but he's not going to make them better. Losing Smith makes them worse.

[Reignman]

People forget the impact J Smith has on the defensive end.

[StMikes31]

People are going to realize how good Josh Smith is when the Hawks struggle.

No they are not. Paul Milsapp is arguably the better player and better fit for that team.

He is not the better player. Don't kid yourself. Milsapp is a fine player, but he's not going to make them better. Losing Smith makes them worse.

Smith does many erratic things on the offensive end that drives fans crazy. Milsapp will be the better fit for that team and even if there is a drop off, it won't be that much. They are still a solid team and much better than us.

[DatBoiCapspace]

Kind of but not really?

We will suck, that's what you're not getting. We aren't touching MIA-IND-BRK-CHI-NY-ATL. Washington, Detroit, Atlanta and Cleveland all got better than us as well. At the VERY best we are a 7-12 team in the East with a team that is maxed out cap wise. There is no other options but to trade your core especially when 2 of them can walk at the end of the year.

Seriously, I don't think you can actually read because I just said we have to trade Gay and Lowry since both have the options of walking at the end of the year. Even if the Raptors are a .500 team come the deadline, Masai is still going to trade them because again we aren't going anywhere with them.

You my friend, are a tanker. Just come out of the closet.

The **** are you going on about here bud.

First you say so matter of factly that we will suck and list all the teams that are for sure better then us, then you say we are at best a 7th seed. Which is it? If youre answer is 7th-12th seed then that means you dont know if we will suck either.

If we are a 12th seed on paper then we dont need to trade anyone on our team to suck, we will already suck and end up with a high draft pick. We can trade players for other reasons, such as Gay who MIGHT not want to sign with a 12 seed team, but trading them jsut so we can suck is not needed.

On the other hand, if we are a 7th seed at the trade deadline, then you do not trade Gay/Lowry or anyone for that matter simply so we can suck. Thats very different from wanting to trade Gay/Lowry just so we can suck this year for Wiggins.

Its very simple mate, IF CV + Stuckey or even Stuckey + CV + 2nd round pick + Kravstov is the best deal you get for Rudy, then you do not trade him because its better to keep him for the year then trade him. If you believe that you are an anti-tanker, if you dont you are pro-tank. Which do you believe?

Don't get mad because you don't know what the hell you're saying and then start to put words in my mouth. You don't understand and that's fine.

But here it goes one more time;

Right now we are a bubble team with 6 teams better than us and teams like Cleveland, Washington, Detroit all improved. Again as I said, at the VERY best if everything goes right (no injuries, good coaching, guys performing) and those 3 teams have major injuries while we don't, I could see them getting the 7th seed (which isn't something to be jumping up and down about). We're still a treadmill team with not much upside with the current core. I don't know what you're not getting here.

However though, the likely scenario (if this core stays intact) is that this team pulls another BC and finishes with 30-35 wins which is the worst possible scenario if you haven't noticed.

And again since you've been clueless, WE HAVE 2 CORE GUYS WHO CAN LEAVE at the end of the year; there's going to be a trade involving them. We cannot lose them for nothing. The Bargnani deal got more value then the one you just presented and both Lowry and Gay have a lot more, so I'm confident Masai can pull off a decent deal.

So what your saying is you think the Raptors will be mediocre, but you really dont know. I happen to agree, which is why its best to let the season play out and see then, AKA not tank.

And again, you have no clue what Masais plans are for Gay/Lowry. We dont know if they will be open to resigning with us or not. Masai could just as easily pull a Nene and re-sign then trade one of them shortly after. So no rush to dump them now unless their agents are clear that they want out or we get a great offer for them. Just as Masai says we have a couple year window with this team.

[StMikes31]

The **** are you going on about here bud.

First you say so matter of factly that we will suck and list all the teams that are for sure better then us, then you say we are at best a 7th seed. Which is it? If youre answer is 7th-12th seed then that means you dont know if we will suck either.

If we are a 12th seed on paper then we dont need to trade anyone on our team to suck, we will already suck and end up with a high draft pick. We can trade players for other reasons, such as Gay who MIGHT not want to sign with a 12 seed team, but trading them jsut so we can suck is not needed.

On the other hand, if we are a 7th seed at the trade deadline, then you do not trade Gay/Lowry or anyone for that matter simply so we can suck. Thats very different from wanting to trade Gay/Lowry just so we can suck this year for Wiggins.

Its very simple mate, IF CV + Stuckey or even Stuckey + CV + 2nd round pick + Kravstov is the best deal you get for Rudy, then you do not trade him because its better to keep him for the year then trade him. If you believe that you are an anti-tanker, if you dont you are pro-tank. Which do you believe?

Don't get mad because you don't know what the hell you're saying and then start to put words in my mouth. You don't understand and that's fine.

But here it goes one more time;

Right now we are a bubble team with 6 teams better than us and teams like Cleveland, Washington, Detroit all improved. Again as I said, at the VERY best if everything goes right (no injuries, good coaching, guys performing) and those 3 teams have major injuries while we don't, I could see them getting the 7th seed (which isn't something to be jumping up and down about). We're still a treadmill team with not much upside with the current core. I don't know what you're not getting here.

However though, the likely scenario (if this core stays intact) is that this team pulls another BC and finishes with 30-35 wins which is the worst possible scenario if you haven't noticed.

And again since you've been clueless, WE HAVE 2 CORE GUYS WHO CAN LEAVE at the end of the year; there's going to be a trade involving them. We cannot lose them for nothing. The Bargnani deal got more value then the one you just presented and both Lowry and Gay have a lot more, so I'm confident Masai can pull off a decent deal.

So what your saying is you think the Raptors will be mediocre, but you really dont know. I happen to agree, which is why its best to let the season play out and see then, AKA not tank.

And again, you have no clue what Masais plans are for Gay/Lowry. We dont know if they will be open to resigning with us or not. Masai could just as easily pull a Nene and re-sign then trade one of them shortly after. So no rush to dump them now unless their agents are clear that they want out or we get a great offer for them. Just as Masai says we have a couple year window with this team.

I've given every indication that they will be mediocre so I do know since I just explained it to you. A 7 seed is mediocre considering the amount of money we are paying these guys and the limited amount of upside left.

I agree that we shouldn't dump these guys for nothing but I'm confident Masai can get a much better deal then what DET offered by the deadline or sooner. But we can't take that chance to let them finish off the year because there is no guaranteeing that they will stay so Masai has to get something out of them, especially if we are struggling.

If you know they are going to be mediocre then why the hell would we waste a season with them while at the same time hurting our draft position? Tanking/Re-building is our only option imo.