Jeremy Lin is fast as hell

[Viatical]

That's a reasonable assessment, though I would still put playmakers like Nash, Vasquez, and Rubio ahead and in some cases far ahead of Lin. So Lin was "about as good" as Goran Dragic, Kemba Walker, Darren Collison, Kirk Hinrich, and Jarrett Jack. That's pretty bad company, for a starting PG.

The good news though, the silver lining, is that Lin will have just turned 25 at the start of next season, and hasn't quite peaked yet as a player. So there is definitely room for improvement, and there will be some improvement.

We could conservatively predict better consistency when shooting from distance, taking care of the basketball better as his ability to read defenses and traps improves, and even greater efficiency in high pick N roll and transition opportunities as his comfort level and chemistry with his teammates improves.

[azuresou1]

I have Lin rated as the 21st best PG on a per-minute basis, 20th is you account for minutes played.

Slightly below-average starting caliber PG in the NBA is not bad, people.

[EvanZ]

Lowry >>>>> Lin

[supertruck97]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG

#13 in Pts. #17 in Ast. #8 in Reb. #9 in FG %. #7 in Stl.

TO me, those are the stats of a PG around #12-15 in the league. So average to just above average.

Now factor in that he is young, has all of 1 season starting in his career, and you can see why he is not the crap player that many make him out to be.

Is he top 10, no, I don't think anyone would argue that. Is he bottom 10? There's no facts to support that either. He's somewhere in the middle with upside.

[nate33]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG

#13 in Pts. #17 in Ast. #8 in Reb. #9 in FG %. #7 in Stl.

TO me, those are the stats of a PG around #12-15 in the league. So average to just above average.

Now factor in that he is young, has all of 1 season starting in his career, and you can see why he is not the crap player that many make him out to be.

Is he top 10, no, I don't think anyone would argue that. Is he bottom 10? There's no facts to support that either. He's somewhere in the middle with upside.

Efficiency matters. FG% isn't a very good way of measuring it. Lin doesn't hit many threes and he doesn't get to the FT line very much. His TS% ranks 19th among PGs.

Pace matters. Houston plays at the fastest pace in the league, almost 5% faster than the average NBA team. Shave 5% off of Lin's counting stats and then reassess your rankings.

Also, that list only includes guys who played 70 or more games. It excludes guys like Parker, Wall, Nash, Lowry, Irving, Rose, Felton and Hinrich. Some rather egregious omissions, don't you think?

[hayden]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG

#13 in Pts. #17 in Ast. #8 in Reb. #9 in FG %. #7 in Stl.

TO me, those are the stats of a PG around #12-15 in the league. So average to just above average.

Now factor in that he is young, has all of 1 season starting in his career, and you can see why he is not the crap player that many make him out to be.

Is he top 10, no, I don't think anyone would argue that. Is he bottom 10? There's no facts to support that either. He's somewhere in the middle with upside.

Efficiency matters. FG% is a very good way of measuring it. Lin doesn't hit many threes and he doesn't get to the FT line very much. His TS% ranks 19th among PGs.

Pace matters. Houston plays at the fastest pace in the league, almost 5% faster than the average NBA team. Shave 5% off of Lin's counting stats and then reassess your rankings.

Also, that list only includes guys who played 70 or more games. It excludes guys like Parker, Wall, Nash, Lowry, Irving, Rose, Felton and Hinrich. Some rather egregious omissions, don't you think?

What about usage rate? Lin ranks 38 among PGs at about 15% lower than the avg starting PG. I guess add 15% to Lin's offensive stats and reassess your rankings?

[azuresou1]

You can't just assume that Lin will be able to go through 15% higher usage and still maintain any sort of efficiency.

My system ranks Lin 16th in scoring ability, 33rd in passing/shot creation ability, 29th in overall offensive impact, and 25th defensively among PGs. He overall rounds out to the 21st best PG, or a bottom-third starting PG.

[barborous]

You can't just assume that Lin will be able to go through 15% higher usage and still maintain any sort of efficiency.

My system ranks Lin 16th in scoring ability, 33rd in passing/shot creation ability, 29th in overall offensive impact, and 25th defensively among PGs. He overall rounds out to the 21st best PG, or a bottom-third starting PG.

That's true, but you have to look at the specific context. Lin's efficiency actually tends to be higher when he's higher usage, since when he's ball-dominant he posts a significantly higher foul-draw rate and he actually shoots 3s and midrange shots better off the dribble than spotting up.

[Viatical]

With Jeremy Lin ON the court last season, the Rockets averaged 110.4 points per 100 possessions, and allowed 107.6 points per 100 possessions. With Lin OFF the court last season, the Rockets scored more points, at 112.2 points per 100 possessions while giving up fewer points, at 107 points per 100 possessions. A compelling argument could therefore be made that the Rockets are literally a better team without Jeremy Lin on the court, regardless of any frequently misleading combine metrics that measure physical traits that so often fail to translate to the game itself.

[Massimo]

He was finally starting to be properly rated, but then he played hurt during the playoffs and I'm expecting Beverly to prove he's legit next season and to show that he was underestimated and Lin around the 16th-20th best PG in the league (not that I have a list)

Let's see.

Bledsoe, Calderon, Conley, Curry, Chalmers, Dragic, Hill, Holiday, Jack, Irving, Lawson, Lillard, Andre Miller, Nash, Parker, Paul, Rondo, Rose, Rubio, Wall, Westbrook, Williams.

In my opinion, these players are way better than Lin.

There are also some players that are on the same level with Lin such as; Kemba Walker, Mo Williams, Vasquez, Jeff Teague, Stuckey, Nate Robinson, Prigioni, Nelson, Lowry, Reggie Jackson, Jennings, Harris, Felton etc etc. I can't say Lin is better these players as well. They are just equal. So I have no clue how people put Jeremy Lin within top 20 PGs.

What is this

PG list.

What does it look like from there? Recipe?

[Woodsanity]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG

#13 in Pts. #17 in Ast. #8 in Reb. #9 in FG %. #7 in Stl.

TO me, those are the stats of a PG around #12-15 in the league. So average to just above average.

Now factor in that he is young, has all of 1 season starting in his career, and you can see why he is not the crap player that many make him out to be.

Is he top 10, no, I don't think anyone would argue that. Is he bottom 10? There's no facts to support that either. He's somewhere in the middle with upside.

Efficiency matters. FG% isn't a very good way of measuring it. Lin doesn't hit many threes and he doesn't get to the FT line very much. His TS% ranks 19th among PGs.

Pace matters. Houston plays at the fastest pace in the league, almost 5% faster than the average NBA team. Shave 5% off of Lin's counting stats and then reassess your rankings.

Also, that list only includes guys who played 70 or more games. It excludes guys like Parker, Wall, Nash, Lowry, Irving, Rose, Felton and Hinrich. Some rather egregious omissions, don't you think?

His role is basically spot up 3 point shooter. He barely ever has the ball in his hands.

[og15]

I never got why this surprised people (outside of him being Asian), what do people think his NBA skill is if it isn't athletic ability? He isn't a great shooter, he can handle, but he isn't an elite ball handler, how in the world do you think he gets to the basket and flies down the court on the break so much? The guy is fast, no question.

[Viatical]

I never got why this surprised people (outside of him being Asian), what do people think his NBA skill is if it isn't athletic ability? He isn't a great shooter, he can handle, but he isn't an elite ball handler, how in the world do you think he gets to the basket and flies down the court on the break so much? The guy is fast, no question.

Running fast or jumping high are not themselves useful NBA skills, on par with being able to shoot a basketball or rebound a basketball at an NBA level. Nor are combine results useful as a predictive tool for NBA success or draft day desirability, as every player who tests well and goes in the second round or undrafted could attest.

The forums would explode if we were to list every overlooked NBDL-bound or Europe-bound second rounder or undrafted player who could put up Jeremy Lin's numbers on Jeremy Lin's usage while being, like Lin, a statistical net negative for their team while they're on the court (scoring is worse, defense is worse per 100 possessions). This is why so many of them stay overlooked. They're not a dime a dozen, they're a dime a thousand. Being one of the 3-5 worst starting point guards in the league is not a very difficult bar.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a player was blessed with the physical tools to theoretically be good at basketball. It matters if they are actually good at basketball.

[supertruck97]

Being one of the 3-5 worst starting point guards in the league is not a very difficult bar.

Wow. So not only is Lin not even average. He's now a bottom 3-5 starting PG??

[Ettorefm]

Being one of the 3-5 worst starting point guards in the league is not a very difficult bar.

Wow. So not only is Lin not even average. He's now a bottom 3-5 starting PG??

.
People have no idea what average means How can he not be an average point guard in the league and also be bottom 3-5 starting PG, which means he's ALREADY on the top 40%, since there are over 100 PGs in the league?
.
Lin has the quality to be a starter. If you consider all the starting PGs, I'd put him in the top 20, which means he's part of the 66% better PGs in the league.
.
Now consider there are 100 PGst otal in the league and hundreds of thousands of great players at the same position in the world.
.
HOW THA HELL IS HE CRAP? How can people compliment 6th man dudes and great role players and say that a starter that has very good impact on the game is a scrub without it being just hatin'?

[bigbreakfast]

Lin's actually very fast, he just doesn't have great moves off the dribble. I think there's an article online somewhere where his trainer answers questions about what skillsets he's working on. that just gives you a glimpse of what really is the limiting factor in his game. ie, lin actually only jumps off of his left leg, which limits his ability to go and finish left.

[postcall]

I never got why this surprised people (outside of him being Asian), what do people think his NBA skill is if it isn't athletic ability? He isn't a great shooter, he can handle, but he isn't an elite ball handler, how in the world do you think he gets to the basket and flies down the court on the break so much? The guy is fast, no question.

Running fast or jumping high are not themselves useful NBA skills, on par with being able to shoot a basketball or rebound a basketball at an NBA level. Nor are combine results useful as a predictive tool for NBA success or draft day desirability, as every player who tests well and goes in the second round or undrafted could attest.

The forums would explode if we were to list every overlooked NBDL-bound or Europe-bound second rounder or undrafted player who could put up Jeremy Lin's numbers on Jeremy Lin's usage while being, like Lin, a statistical net negative for their team while they're on the court (scoring is worse, defense is worse per 100 possessions). This is why so many of them stay overlooked. They're not a dime a dozen, they're a dime a thousand. Being one of the 3-5 worst starting point guards in the league is not a very difficult bar.


Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a player was blessed with the physical tools to theoretically be good at basketball. It matters if they are actually good at basketball.

Cool story bro. Dude plays starters these numbers don't account for strength of opposing players. They state that Beverely is better than other bench guards.

[kakaman]

"It's huge. It's really important for us," Jeremy Lin said Sunday at the Steve Nash Showdown. "When you talk about a franchise player or a superstar, having him and James Harden -- we're definitely fortunate to have two of those top-tier guys."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 9667.story

Man that must have been awkward

[Viatical]

We just did two straight pages worth of list-making.

1. When a player is generously declared "average" among starting point guards, it begs this question: Which 15 starting NBA point guards is Jeremy Lin unquestionably better than? Which 12? Are there even 10 starting point guards whom Jeremy Lin is better than? Are there 5?

2. Jeremy Lin posted the worst on/off the court production differential of any consistent Rockets starter last season. His simple rating of -2.2 is worse than James Harden (+6.6), Omer Asik (+1.9), and Chandler Parsons (+0.5). In terms of his impact on the team's offensive and defensive efficiency, Jeremy Lin is the worst consistent starter on the Houston Rockets by far. Whatever perceived athletic advantages Jeremy Lin has, have not made his team better while he is on the floor.

3. The fact that a late second rounder and stealth signing in Patrick Beverley just finished badly outplaying Lin at the point guard spot in the 2013 playoffs, and that Lin's starting role and minutes are a question mark right now, should tell fans all they need to know about this, really.

[BubbaTee]

With Jeremy Lin ON the court last season, the Rockets averaged 110.4 points per 100 possessions, and allowed 107.6 points per 100 possessions. With Lin OFF the court last season, the Rockets scored more points, at 112.2 points per 100 possessions while giving up fewer points, at 107 points per 100 possessions. A compelling argument could therefore be made that the Rockets are literally a better team without Jeremy Lin on the court, regardless of any frequently misleading combine metrics that measure physical traits that so often fail to translate to the game itself.

BOS with Rondo: 101.9 pts scored/100 possessions, 104.7 pts allowed/100
BOS without Rondo: 105.4 pts scored/100, 104.6 pts allowed/100

Rondo is considered an All-Star, yet the numbers show the same "compelling argument" can be made that the Celtics are better without Rondo on the court.

Here's some other players whose teams were "better" without them, according to On/Off stats:
James Harden
Steve Nash
Luol Deng
Anthony Davis
Kenneth Faried
Demarcus Cousins
Nikola Vucevic
Al Jefferson
Shawn Marion
Chandler Parsons
Greg Monroe
OJ Mayo
Jose Calderon
Tyreke Evans
Demar Derozan
Bradley Beal