How much better was Steve Nash than John Stockton

[BattleTested]

As you can tell from my sig, I didn't get to watch much of Stockton's career. But from what I know it seems like he was a lot like Nash, but a less able scorer and a more tenacious defender. I consider both to be top 5 PG's of all time, but what really separated them as players? What did a great game from Stockton look like compared to one from Nash?

[ThaRegul8r]

Batten down the hatches. This discussion always goes on for pages and pages.

[BattleTested]

Batten down the hatches. This discussion always goes on for pages and pages.

I've been a frequent poster for years and I honestly can't ever remember this discussion. Meanwhile it seems like we discuss Shaq's peak or Lebron's place all time on every other topic.

[TheChosen618]

Scoring ability is what separates Nash from Stockton. Nash was capable of imposing his will and taking over with his scoring, see 2005 WCSF vs. the Mavericks where he dropped 30+ points in multiple games.

The issue with Stockton was his lack of assertiveness or his inability to create his own shot and score.

Those issues did not exist with Nash.

Stockton was a much better defender, but Nash's superior scoring skills are more important for a PG and that is why Nash was better.

[islamovic]

Scoring ability is what separates Nash from Stockton. Nash was capable of imposing his will and taking over with his scoring, see 2005 WCSF vs. the Mavericks where he dropped 30+ points in multiple games.

The issue with Stockton was his lack of assertiveness or his inability to create his own shot and score.

Those issues did not exist with Nash.

Stockton was a much better defender, but Nash's superior scoring skills are more important for a PG and that is why Nash was better.

what this guy said

+

stockton gets overrated as a defender. he got alot of steals, but thats about it. he wasnt gonna shut down anybody.

he was very good good at playing dirty n getting away with it.

[JordansBulls]

Nash wasn't better, Stockton was the better player.

4. Stockton
8. Nash

[Texas Chuck]

Stockton was an absolutely tremendous player whose only real criticism is that people want him to have scored at a higher volume. I mean think about that for a second. People seem to forget that we live in the world of the scoring pg, but that wasnt nearly as in vogue in Stockton's era.

But still the guy played at a tremendous level for 20 years, never missed a game, and got his team into the PS every year. He was one of the best offensive and defensive pgs in league for well over a decade.

Oh but he isnt on Nash's level because he didnt take 3 shots more per game in an era where scoring pgs were the exception and not the rule like they are in Nash's.

[penbeast0]

I rank Stockton higher because of his defense and durability. Defense people have talked about but Stockton was one of the NBA's great ironmen and between that and his putting out full effort on defense every night, it creates an environment where the team is more likely to play to it's full potential particularly on defense where effort is a higher percentage of the package. He also was less likely to turn the ball over while racking up even more assists but that's not that major since both created extemely efficient offenses.

Minor point -- Nash's Phoenix team ratings might overstate his offensive impact and understate his defense a bit since they relied quite a bit on playing guys like Amare and Marion out of position, creating mismatches at both ends.

[Peregrine01]

I don't think Stockton ever could lead a team offensively the way that Nash can. That said, I think he can function as a better complementary player to the top dog than Nash can.

[Mr MoJo Risin]

Since Stockton was to scared to shoot the ball late in games, I"ll go with Nash

[barborous]

Stockton's efficiency wasn't nearly as consistent as Nash's, and this was on lower volume - from watching the games, too, you can see that Stockton was much more passive and selective and choosing his shots, so this is a huge advantage for Nash. Nash was, as a result, also a better and more dynamic playmaker (please no one bring up raw assist totals; this is not the general board) who led better offenses. Stockton's offenses actually improved in efficiency as his role decreased, since his lesser skillset was more suited to a lesser role.

Stockton did have some crazy durability and longevity, though, and was a scrappy defender - whereas Nash couldn't defend a scrap.

[Texas Chuck]

"scrappy" doesnt begin to describe Stockton as a defender.


And please stop telling Stockton supporters to not use raw assists totals None of us have tho when a guy laps the field as soundly as Stockton did its not something that should just be brushed aside either. This forum in attempting to understand the true value of an assist has now gone over the edge to where assists are somehow a negative...... Im old enough to have watched Stockton play in his prime and he's not just some system pg. His assists arent meaningless stat padding. Is he a creative playmaker at Nash's level? No I dont think anyone thinks he was. Is there still tremendous value in having a guy who can run your offense to perfection time after time? Is there value to a guy who makes the right pass to the right guy at the right time repeated ad nauseum? Some of you seem to be suggesting otherwise.

[Winglish]

Stockton's efficiency wasn't nearly as consistent as Nash's, and this was on lower volume

Stop. Just Stop. Seriously. My head is going to explode at your ignorance.

PER Top 10 Appearances

Stockton 10, Nash 1

Top 10 TS% Appearances

Stockton 11, Nash 10

Top 10 FG%

Stockton 6, Nash 0

Top 10 Offensive Rating Appearances

Stockton 12, Nash 8 (Stockton 4th highest of all time, BTW)

Top 10 Offensive Win Shares Appearances

Stockton 12, Nash 9

Top 10 Win Shares Appearances

Stockton 11, Nash 3

Top 10 Win Shares per 48 Minutes Appearances

Stockton 14, Nash 3

Top 10 Defensive Rating Appearances

Stockton 3, Nash 0

Top 10 Defensive Win Shares Appearances

Stockton 4, Nash 0

Top 10 Steals Percentages Appearances

Stockton 14, Nash 0

[Winglish]

Now that we've established that Stockton was clearly more efficient offensively and defensively than Nash, we can talk assists.

Top 10 Assists Percentage Appearances

Stockton 18, Nash 11 (Stockton led the league 15 times, Nash 4)

Top 10 Assists Per Game Appearances

Stockton 17, Nash 11

'Nuf said about that. Both were great; Stockton was clearly the better setup man.

[Winglish]

All-NBA Honors

Stockton 11 All-NBA and 5 All-NBA Defensive

Nash 7 All-NBA (zero and not even close to all-defensive)

[Regulio]

Depends what we value. Nash might have peaked higher, but overall I'd take Stockton in a heartbeat.
Nash was great for several years, Stockton for 20.

[Winglish]

Nash was a better scorer. He scored 2.9 points per game more than Stockton in the playoffs. Wow. Big difference. Meanwhile, Stockton did everything else better.

NIne times Nash averaged 15 points per game in the regular season. Stockton did it six times and had three more at 14.7.

Over 14 points per game?

Nash 11, Stockton 10

Pretty dang close.

[AshyLarry]

besides for scoring and leading a team as the sole superstar id go with nash, but i think if i got a lebron, kobe, barkley like player id rather have stockton.

i think stockton is the better player, i actually think steve nash is highly overrated, but those MVPs in my criteria puts him above stockton in my book, much to my dismay.

[G35]

Scoring ability is what separates Nash from Stockton. Nash was capable of imposing his will and taking over with his scoring, see 2005 WCSF vs. the Mavericks where he dropped 30+ points in multiple games.

The issue with Stockton was his lack of assertiveness or his inability to create his own shot and score.

Those issues did not exist with Nash.

Stockton was a much better defender, but Nash's superior scoring skills are more important for a PG and that is why Nash was better.

I take issue with this post because I think it paint's an incorrect picture of Nash. Notice the year. 2005. Nash came into the league with Kobe in 1996. Where was Nash's "take over" ability in the eight years prior? He played with a coach that played mismatches (in fact Nelson is criticized for over thinking mismatches) and similar talent in Nowitzki/Finley/LaFrentz/Van Exel/Raja Bell/Josh Howard/Marquis Daniels. However, during his time in Dallas he was not the 50/40/90 shooter he is celebrated for. In fact he was closer to 47% FG%, 40% 3P%, and his TS% hovered around 60%.

He also only made the All Star team twice in eight years prior to 2005. So what happened? How did Steve Nash become a two-time MVP and top 5 PG all time?

Mike D'Antoni. Yeah, yeah, yeah the same Mike D. everyone is hating on now saw something in Steve Nash and put him in a position to bring out the best in him. Now it should be known that yes Mike brought out the best in Steve but it wasn't the best way to win a title.

You will hear that Nash took over scoring so much but you don't see it against the Spurs. No big shots to advance in the playoff's. Nash did over 20/10 twice in his career in the playoff's. For a team that makes it's living on offense that is....disappointing for a "takeover scoring" PG. What Nash did best was make others better but when teams i.e. the Spurs took away the Suns three pt shooting the Suns were quite vulnerable because Nash could not beat you on his own. Period.

Also whatever Nash gave you on offense he damn sure gave back on defense. And it wasn't just through his own lack of effort on defense, his laissez faire attitude towards defense permeated throughout the team. Only Raja Bell and Shawn Marion gave any effort on defense and it was when Marion was traded away that his real value was seen. The Suns defense fell off a cliff, and Nash's ability to create offense could not offset the difference.....

[Winglish]

think stockton is the better player, i actually think steve nash is highly overrated, but those MVPs in my criteria puts him above stockton in my book, much to my dismay

Let's compare Nash's MVP year statistics to Stockton's two best years, just for fun.

2004-2005
Nash scored 15.5 and averaged 11.5 assists.

1989-1990
Stockton averaged 17.2 and 14.5. (Magic Johnson MVP)

2005-2006
Nash scored 18.8 and had 10.5 assists.

1990-1991
Stockton scored 17.2 and had 14.2 assists (Michael Jordan got his second MVP that year)

Now go back and look at history. MJ and Magic were at their peaks during Stockton's best seasons. Can you say that Nash was definitively better than Magic or Michael at their peak?

Stockton had 12 MVP Award Shares during his career. Nash had 8. Stockton ran into Magic and Michael.