Rank our starters by position

[therealbig3]

I really want to see legit reasoning for Rose or Rondo being ranked over D-Will. I really don't see it whatsoever.

Assuming Rose to just magically regain his MVP form coming off a major knee injury when his game is mostly dependent on his athleticism in the first place is a huge leap of faith. How can you possibly rank Rose over D-Will and give him such a huge benefit of the doubt? D-Will is definitely over Rose until proven otherwise.

And Rondo got straight up exposed last season. There's been plenty of evidence for Rondo being hugely overrated for a while now, but now we have a 25-game sample to look at where his team got A LOT better without him. The offense looked smoother, there was way more ball movement, and the Celtics played much more efficient basketball. Sorry, if you're a great PG, your team shouldn't play so much better without you.

Please, someone give me a good argument for Rose or Rondo being better than D-Will as of right now.

LOL at Holiday or Kyrie being as good as D-Will. Holiday just isn't that good, and Kyrie can barely stay on the court. D-Will is clearly ahead of both until proven otherwise.

[jeff1624]

I really want to see legit reasoning for Rose or Rondo being ranked over D-Will. I really don't see it whatsoever.

Assuming Rose to just magically regain his MVP form coming off a major knee injury when his game is mostly dependent on his athleticism in the first place is a huge leap of faith. How can you possibly rank Rose over D-Will and give him such a huge benefit of the doubt? D-Will is definitely over Rose until proven otherwise.

And Rondo got straight up exposed last season. There's been plenty of evidence for Rondo being hugely overrated for a while now, but now we have a 25-game sample to look at where his team got A LOT better without him. The offense looked smoother, there was way more ball movement, and the Celtics played much more efficient basketball. Sorry, if you're a great PG, your team shouldn't play so much better without you.

Please, someone give me a good argument for Rose or Rondo being better than D-Will as of right now.

LOL at Holiday or Kyrie being as good as D-Will. Holiday just isn't that good, and Kyrie can barely stay on the court. D-Will is clearly ahead of both until proven otherwise.

I've argued this the past year and a half... but all anyone ever tells me is that Rondo is a monster playoff performer compared to Deron... even though Deron has better playoff numbers throughout his entire career.

[therealbig3]

Yeah, Rondo's reputation as a playoff performer is vastly overrated. He's the same inefficient overpasser that he is in the regular season...he just focuses on getting more rebounds, which leads to impressive-looking box score stats and triple doubles. But he's still the same inefficient offensive player, who stat pads, who has been in a system that's EXTREMELY assists-friendly.

[Boarder Patrol]

I really want to see legit reasoning for Rose or Rondo being ranked over D-Will. I really don't see it whatsoever.

Assuming Rose to just magically regain his MVP form coming off a major knee injury when his game is mostly dependent on his athleticism in the first place is a huge leap of faith. How can you possibly rank Rose over D-Will and give him such a huge benefit of the doubt? D-Will is definitely over Rose until proven otherwise.

And Rondo got straight up exposed last season. There's been plenty of evidence for Rondo being hugely overrated for a while now, but now we have a 25-game sample to look at where his team got A LOT better without him. The offense looked smoother, there was way more ball movement, and the Celtics played much more efficient basketball. Sorry, if you're a great PG, your team shouldn't play so much better without you.

Please, someone give me a good argument for Rose or Rondo being better than D-Will as of right now.

LOL at Holiday or Kyrie being as good as D-Will. Holiday just isn't that good, and Kyrie can barely stay on the court. D-Will is clearly ahead of both until proven otherwise.

Even if Rose significantly drops off he'll be better. And Rondo is better when he doesn't stat pad his assists, but ill admit that's a major flaw and you have to consider it.

Rose's scoring game relies on driving a lot but he had a nice jumper going before he was injured and that will open up his game. After 18 months off from an injury that in modern medical times people come back from strong, he should be fine after he shakes the rust off. Also, people underrate his defense, court vision, decision making, etc.

[M I K E]

Rank our starting five ?

I say they are # 1 in the NBA as a unit.

[Boarder Patrol]

Rank our starting five ?

I say they are # 1 in the NBA as a unit.

Overall I would probably say 2 behind Golden State. Similar talent but the pieces fit better and they have already developed chemistry in GSW.

[jeff1624]

I really want to see legit reasoning for Rose or Rondo being ranked over D-Will. I really don't see it whatsoever.

Assuming Rose to just magically regain his MVP form coming off a major knee injury when his game is mostly dependent on his athleticism in the first place is a huge leap of faith. How can you possibly rank Rose over D-Will and give him such a huge benefit of the doubt? D-Will is definitely over Rose until proven otherwise.

And Rondo got straight up exposed last season. There's been plenty of evidence for Rondo being hugely overrated for a while now, but now we have a 25-game sample to look at where his team got A LOT better without him. The offense looked smoother, there was way more ball movement, and the Celtics played much more efficient basketball. Sorry, if you're a great PG, your team shouldn't play so much better without you.

Please, someone give me a good argument for Rose or Rondo being better than D-Will as of right now.

LOL at Holiday or Kyrie being as good as D-Will. Holiday just isn't that good, and Kyrie can barely stay on the court. D-Will is clearly ahead of both until proven otherwise.

Even if Rose significantly drops off he'll be better. And Rondo is better when he doesn't stat pad his assists, but ill admit that's a major flaw and you have to consider it.

Rose's scoring game relies on driving a lot but he had a nice jumper going before he was injured and that will open up his game. After 18 months off from an injury that in modern medical times people come back from strong, he should be fine after he shakes the rust off. Also, people underrate his defense, court vision, decision making, etc.

Even if Rose significantly drops off he'll be better? They were already close when both were 100%... If Rose isn't close to what he once was then it's obvious Deron will be the better player. If you don't think so then I would love to hear your argument on the matter.

[drza]

I go more by tiers than by exact rankings.

PG: Williams on tier 2 (with the asterisk that this could be as high as #2 PG overall, meaning he'd be tier 1 if not for Chris Paul being transcendant). Clearly behind Paul, on a similar level with Rose, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, and maybe Irving. Could finish at the top or bottom of this tier without surprise. Rondo is a wild card that I'm curious to see in his new situation, and Lillard could either make a Curry-like jump or sophomore slump with no surprise.

SG: Johnson on tier 3. He's clearly behind the franchise players like Harden, Wade and (if healthy) Kobe. He's also behind the lead player on a playoff team types like Iguodala (who, now that I think about it maybe should be listed with the SFs). He's fitting in with the strong contributor on contender types like Manu (if healthy) or Butler (if he builds on last year), the flawed 1st option types like Monta, and maybe the specialists like Klay Thompson, JR Smith (last year). Should be more impactful than the defensive specialist types like Tony Allen or Avery Bradley. If George moves to SG this year to make room for Granger then George is also ahead of Johnson.

SF: Pierce on tier 3. He's clearly behind the uber guys like LeBron and Durant. Then there's a gap before the next group of SFs featuring Melo and maybe George (depending on his development and position) and Iggy (position?). which is where Pierce likely would have resided a few years ago. I'd say Deng and maybe Granger are his peers. He's still better than guys like Gay or Kawhi.

PF: KG on tier 1. The only reason he's not #1 outright is due to minutes. His peers on this tier are Dirk, Blake, maybe Love, Aldridge, Josh Smith. He's better than Bosh, West, Millsap or Randolph. In the postseason when his minutes go up to the 36 mpg range, he moves past all of them with maybe Dirk as his only peer.

C: Lopez on tier 3. He's behind potential franchise guys like Howard or Duncan. Behind both Gasol brothers and Horford. On a tier with Noah, Hibbert, Chandler, Al Jefferson. Unclear whether he might be surpassed by young huge upside guys like Favors, Cousins, Sanders. Ahead of the brittle potential stars like Bynum, Bogut or Oden for health reasons but if any miraculously turned in a fully healthy season they could surpass him as well (I'm legitimately fearful of Oden signing with Miami and shocking the world with 2 legs that actually work).

[Boarder Patrol]

I really want to see legit reasoning for Rose or Rondo being ranked over D-Will. I really don't see it whatsoever.

Assuming Rose to just magically regain his MVP form coming off a major knee injury when his game is mostly dependent on his athleticism in the first place is a huge leap of faith. How can you possibly rank Rose over D-Will and give him such a huge benefit of the doubt? D-Will is definitely over Rose until proven otherwise.

And Rondo got straight up exposed last season. There's been plenty of evidence for Rondo being hugely overrated for a while now, but now we have a 25-game sample to look at where his team got A LOT better without him. The offense looked smoother, there was way more ball movement, and the Celtics played much more efficient basketball. Sorry, if you're a great PG, your team shouldn't play so much better without you.

Please, someone give me a good argument for Rose or Rondo being better than D-Will as of right now.

LOL at Holiday or Kyrie being as good as D-Will. Holiday just isn't that good, and Kyrie can barely stay on the court. D-Will is clearly ahead of both until proven otherwise.

Even if Rose significantly drops off he'll be better. And Rondo is better when he doesn't stat pad his assists, but ill admit that's a major flaw and you have to consider it.

Rose's scoring game relies on driving a lot but he had a nice jumper going before he was injured and that will open up his game. After 18 months off from an injury that in modern medical times people come back from strong, he should be fine after he shakes the rust off. Also, people underrate his defense, court vision, decision making, etc.

Even if Rose significantly drops off he'll be better? They were already close when both were 100%... If Rose isn't close to what he once was then it's obvious Deron will be the better player. If you don't think so then I would love to hear your argument on the matter.

It was an overstatement, I'll admit. They weren't close though. Rose was MVP.

[jeff1624]

Is the MVP your main argument? Because if we're basing it off of that then you consider Nash to be a better player than Shaquille O'Neal.

Rose winning the MVP is meaningless when comparing both players. He has at no point been a top 5 player in this league and was only given the award because the media was anti-lebron following "the decision" debacle. If anything, Dwight deserved the MVP over Rose that year.

Rose is lucky to have had the best defensive in the league behind him along with a top 3 coach. Playing with 3 all-star caliber players in Deng, Boozer and Noah doesn't hurt either. But ok... let's keep pretending Rose is the reason the Bulls are such a good team despite the fact that the same Bulls team won 45 games without him this year and finished 34 games above .500 in a shortened season where Rose missed roughly 44% of the season.

[Paradise]

Is the MVP your main argument? Because if we're basing it off of that then you consider Nash to be a better player than Shaquille O'Neal.

Rose winning the MVP is meaningless when comparing both players. He has at no point been a top 5 player in this league and was only given the award because the media was anti-lebron following "the decision" debacle. If anything, Dwight deserved the MVP over Rose that year.

Rose is lucky to have had the best defensive in the league behind him along with a top 3 coach. Playing with 3 all-star caliber players in Deng, Boozer and Noah doesn't hurt either. But ok... let's keep pretending Rose is the reason the Bulls are such a good team despite the fact that the same Bulls team won 45 games without him this year and finished 34 games above .500 in a shortened season where Rose missed roughly 44% of the season.

And to add to this. The MVP trophy usually goes to the player with the Top 3 record and superstar stats. Howard, LeBron were all worthy of winning that MVP. If the Bulls win 50 games and only reach the 3rd seed, his consideration for that award goes down.

Aside from Bulls fans, there is nobody that truly will sit here and tell you Rose winning that MVP means he is on another level than any other PG out there.

[Martial]

Is the MVP your main argument? Because if we're basing it off of that then you consider Nash to be a better player than Shaquille O'Neal.

Rose winning the MVP is meaningless when comparing both players. He has at no point been a top 5 player in this league and was only given the award because the media was anti-lebron following "the decision" debacle. If anything, Dwight deserved the MVP over Rose that year.

Rose is lucky to have had the best defensive in the league behind him along with a top 3 coach. Playing with 3 all-star caliber players in Deng, Boozer and Noah doesn't hurt either. But ok... let's keep pretending Rose is the reason the Bulls are such a good team despite the fact that the same Bulls team won 45 games without him this year and finished 34 games above .500 in a shortened season where Rose missed roughly 44% of the season.

And lets keep pretending that they didn't get knocked out in the first round against a poor Philly team when he was hurt.

I'm all for having this debate with you, but don't be ignorant and selective. If you want to tell a story, tell the full story. They won 62 games because of his supporting cast? 50-16 because of his supporting cast? The same cast that couldn't beat Philly? The same cast that was plagued with injury for both seasons that the Bulls had the best record?

2010-11: Noah missed 34 games. Boozer missed 23 games. Rose played 81 games with Keith Bogans, and at times Ronnie Brewer in the backcourt. With Asik and Gibson filling in for the starters numerous times, Rose was often the only offensive weapon on the floor. At times Korver played, though what he provided in floor spacing was quickly eradicated by his poor defence (as exposed by the Heat in the 2011 ECF). That year the Bulls were ranked 12th in offensive efficiency. That is with scouting reports focussing solely on Rose he still got his 25 and 7, with an average -- at best -- jump shot.

2011-12: Deng missed 12 games. Hamilton missed 38 games. Watson missed 17 games. Rose finally gets help in Hamilton -- someone who the defence had to respect at the time -- but he missed more than half the season. And so again, without Hamilton scouting reports focussed solely on stopping an MVP Rose. In Hamilton's place often was the offensively challenged Ronnie Brewer. But hold on, the Bulls had an offensive efficiency rating that was 5th best in the league. Rose got his numbers and with Rose the team went 32-7, without him 18-9. Kind of speaks for itself. You say Rose missed roughly 44%, I know you said roughly but he actually played in 74% of regular season games (playoff games not important here because they obviously don't impact regular season record).

2012-13: Without Rose the offensive efficiency drops to 24th best in the league. And you cannot argue it was the loss of the bench because A) Asik, Brewer and Watson aren't much offensively and B) Nate, Marco and Hinrich are all better offensively than the aforementioned in point A.

Now, the MVP argument. Statistically LeBron was better. He also played on a team with 2 superstars at good ages and won less games than Rose did on an ailing Bulls team with no consistent second scorer. Also worth mentioning is that Rose and the Bulls swept the Heat in the regular season that year. It's Most 'Valuable' Player, not Most Talent Player. Derrick's impact on the Bulls was far greater than LeBron's on the Heat that year. The wins column alone supports this notion.

I can understand the questions fans have about present day Rose, though. The athleticism questions and so on. But according to reports and Thibs his athleticism has fully returned. Add to that the reported 15 pounds of muscle he's put on due to the rehab, and the improved and respectable jump shot he will have, and that's why I put him above Deron. Deron couldn't deal with Kirk Hinrich for the majority of the series, and couldn't lead his team to a series win over a seriously crippled Bulls team which finished with Nate Robinson and Marco Belinelli as their starting backcourt.

And a side note on CP3... Overrated.

As far as I'm concerned, you should be trying to convince people why Deron is better, not the other way around.

[therealbig3]

Pretty sure Deng and Noah also being injured was why they lost to Philly in 2012...not to mention a boneheaded mistake by CJ Watson that if avoided, would have likely resulted in a game 7 at home for the Bulls, which they likely win.

That's really the main point here: it's not like the Bulls' only significant injury the last two years has been Rose...it's been Noah, Deng, and Gibson as well. If those guys were healthy, we're looking at a 2nd round team that's winning 50+ games in the regular season. That's a great supporting cast to have. How many other teams can lose their best player and still win 50+ games with reasonable health for their other players? Not even LeBron's Heat.

And you just proved why MVP is completely IRRELEVANT when it comes to player rankings. LeBron, Wade, Howard, CP3, Kobe, and Dirk were at minimum better players than Rose in 2011, but because they didn't have the team record, they lost to him for MVP. MVP is pretty much a team-based award now, and voters even openly say that it's not about the best player...which means when talking about individual player comparisons, simply stating Rose is MVP without any context isn't much of an argument.

[therealbig3]

Rose got a ton of hype and attention, because the media and fans tend to overrate players on good teams, and ignore players that are stuck on bad teams. Deron was traded in 2011 and was stuck with a bad Nets team for the rest of that year and throughout 2012. Rose had one of the most stacked supporting casts in the league both of those years. So the Bulls won a ton of regular season games, the Nets didn't, people acted like Rose was on a different level.

But in actuality, the two of them were putting up similar numbers, and Deron certainly has advantages that Rose doesn't: he's a better shooter, he's a better passer, he reads defenses better (higher IQ). There's certainly an argument to be made that Deron is an overall superior offensive player than Rose. And this was pre-injury Rose. It's just that nobody entertained the discussion, because Rose was on a team winning a ton of games, and Deron was headed to the lottery. If that's all the superficial analysis that you need to determine who's better, fine, but the Bulls' success clearly went far beyond Rose, and the Nets' failure clearly went far beyond Deron.

Those that did decide to look deeper at the comparison certainly felt that it was a close comparison, even if they did side with Rose. But Rose was a player that relied heavily on his athleticism, and now he's coming off a major knee injury. So the debate was already close, and now Rose has to return from a major injury? Yeah, safe to say that Deron should receive the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Rose's game can very easily suffer a major dropoff this year.

[Martial]

@therealbig3

I've already addressed some of your points, so i'll try not to repeat myself. Some of what you say is irrelevant, like where you say if CJ didn't have the bonehead mistake we probably would have won in 7. That doesn't matter. With Derrick, we would have won in 4 or 5, and most likely the series that followed against Boston. The Bulls records in 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 all have one thing in common. That is, it's exceptional when Derrick plays (2010-11: 62-19 ... 2011-12: 32-7), and it's no where near as good when he doesn't play (2011-12: 18-9 ... 2012-13: 45-37). And the 2012-13 roster wasn't bad, as you said. In fact, I think the supporting cast was upgraded at each position excluding backup center; losing Asik was the only one that hurt. Hinrich over CJ. Nate over JL3. Marco over Korver. Butler over Brewer.

Joakim missed 16 regular season games this past season, 18 less than he did in Derrick's MVP year. Boozer missed 3 regular season games, 20 less than he did in Derrick's MVP year. Taj Missed 17 games, 15 more than he did in Derrick's MVP season. Luol missed 7 regular season games, 7 more than he did in Derrick's MVP year. Hamilton was a non-factor in both. What i'm getting at is that you could make the case that the injuries in 2010-11 hit the Bulls much harder in the regular season than the injuries in the 2012-13 regular season. This season the Bulls were crippled going into the playoffs, and that's why it garnered national attention. The images of Joakim hobbling around in the Nets series, Nate throwing up on the bench (I know, not an injury), and Luol in a hospital bed impacted a lot of people's perceptions.

What I said about MVP was a separate argument, though it's hardly irrelevant. LeBron, Howard, CP3, Wade, Dirk and Kobe (at the minimum) were better than Derrick that year? No offence, but that's ludicrous. You say that none of them won MVP because none had a record as good as the Bulls? Who do you think was most responsible for the Bulls record that year? It was Rose, as evidenced by their record this year without him. Yes, Thibs helps a great deal, but he didn't get anywhere near 62 wins this year without Rose. Because Rose CARRIED the team. Do you know how many times this season the Bulls would struggle hopelessly to get a single basket, often going 4 or 5 minutes without one? Well I don't, but after watching every game I can assure it was a helluva lot and it was painful. When I hear people suggesting that the supporting cast was responsible for their record, not Rose, I wonder how many Bulls games they watched that year, and it must not have been many. Moreover, Deron couldn't carry a decent roster this year to 50+ wins. What does that say? And as for all those players you mentioned being better that year... on what grounds are they better? How can you tell me that they were better and had a greater impact on their team than Derrick Rose did?

In regard to the advantages you suggest Deron has over Rose:

Shooting - certainly, he DID have an advantage. We will have to wait and see if he still does this coming season. Rose has worked non stop on his shot during his time out of the NBA.

Passer - yeah, probably. But it's not like you could prove it, or like Rose is a poor passer. He is a very good passer, he just doesn't have many people to pass to.

Reads defences better - no, disagree here. Rose is an underrated defender. Yes Thibs' system helps, but one on one, Rose can stay in front of any PG.

Superior offensive player - definitely disagree here. Shouldn't really need to make my case, or do I? I'd like to hear your case on why you think this.

I agree with you that it was worth comparing them in 2010-11. Don't get me wrong, Deron is no scrub. And he was very good in 2010-11, but wins do dictate. I don't know how many Bulls games you watched in 2010-11, but Derrick Rose was responsible for A LOT of wins that year, not his supporting cast.

To your last point on Rose's athleticism and injury: I agree, he needs to prove himself. But by all reports his athleticism is 100%, and his shooting has improved.

[Paradise]

Deron - 3rd: For me, when I rank the Point Guard position. I like to look at the whole picture. Passing, Shooting, Defensive impact on the floor, etc. Right now, as the player, his body of work and his season last year. I'd put him at 3rd best PG behind Paul and Tony Parker.

His numbers are comparable to Parker, he has a better ORtg, had a better Win Shares than Parker last season but Parker had a better season. He also had a better percentage in jumpshooting in all ranges on the floor.

And people need to realize when comes to comparing Deron with the other younger guards like Westbrook, Deron in a irrelevant season in Jersey averaging 20ppg, 8 assists on 53% TS without Lopez and with a D-League team, Westbrook had similar numbers and was an all-star that season.

You can also make the argument to put Curry ahead of him but Curry's biggest advantage is shooting. Deron is just more complete than Curry, IMO.

If he can put up the numbers he did post-all star break for the whole season, he will be head and shoulders next to Paul in a debate for possible MVP or best PG of the season debate. He's not an outsider like some people believe.

Joe - 5th: Kobe, Harden, Wade are clearly better or ranked higher. After that, I would put Klay Thompson better than him in terms of production. I think Johnson is the better all around player right now with more tools in his game but Klay's shooting and youth makes it an easy choice to rank him higher. People's fixation on Joe's contract gets in the way of his ability to handle the ball at 6'7 or 6'8, he still shoots it at an above average percentage. 37% last season in a regressed season and new role. He was by far the best clutch player in the league a year ago. Is he great? no but he is good and can be great on certain nights. Johnson has way more to his game than Monta Ellis and he's unselfish unlike Ellis. I don't see Iggy as a SG either.

Paul - 5th : After the trade went down and I went to do laundry after needing a new set of pants over the trade, I did some research on Pierce and he is still easily one of the best at his position production and impact wise. I don't think I really need to mention who's higher than him but LeBron, Durant, Melo, Paul George.

At 35, Pierce averaged 18ppg on 56% TS, 24.1 Assist % (Second most behind LeBron), 19.7 D defensive rebounding percentage, 27.5 Usage percentage. The most triple doubles in one season of his career ever. That's pretty damn scary for a 35 year old that is supposedly done according to some fans. He can still, score, rebound, pass at an all-star level. His defense is still solid with a DRtg of 102 and his on/off stats are pretty solid too.

Kevin - 7th: Sadly, KG's rankings take a massive hit with him moving to PF as an overall player but the rankings for me at PF are

- Love
- Griffin (arguably)
- Duncan
- Dirk
- LMA
- Bosh

I have Garnett 7th overall. But in terms of defense? Garnett is #1 at the PF position ranking. His on the on/off floor stats are pretty incredible at his age, 37 and his defense is still elite. His rebounding has gone down some but he showed he is capable of grabbing 14 rebounds per game in the playoffs. His jumpshot is still elite at 44% but defense is the only thing that e has over everyone else at his position.

Brook - 3rd: Last season, In my opinion, Brook was by far the best big man in the league. If he only averaged more rebounds, he could have been an MVP candidate. Howard at his worst still had better numbers even though Brook played and looked like a better player throughout the season but Howard is just a straight up superstar and leading big man in rebounding at the end of the day, DPOY candidate every year.

Gasol is a better passer and jumpshooter. His defense isn't DPOY worthy but he is a better team defender and anchor on defense compare to Brook especially on pick and roll defense. I do think Brook will surpass him next season.

Hibbert is slightly overrated and quite frankly, playing the Knicks and Heat midget lineups does not really mean that much overall since he has shown none of that throughout 82 games while Brook has played consistency from regular season to playoffs which I d id not think was possible. Hibbert has defense and rebounding over Brook but I'll give Brook the edge based off all four meetings and the fact Brook did much better against Noah who is better than Chandler and Bosh.