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AA must be high to make this statement

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Waylon Mercy
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#61 » by Waylon Mercy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:32 am

kwamebargnani wrote:
Waylon Mercy wrote:Whats with this stupid corny "internet point" system gimmick you've created? Looking
at your And1 to post ratio you might want to put that thing away.

Oh right. Let's discuss something useless, like internet points and and 1's instead, because it's already been decided that your argument was stupid to begin with. You say something absurd, you'll get reactions. Now you're crying about it.


You're nothing but a lame troll who isn't capable of having a debate. You throw
your usual corny insults around without debating any meat and potatoes.
Quit your keyboard warrior troll gimmick and maybe you will be taken seriously.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#62 » by Waylon Mercy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:55 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Waylon Mercy wrote:I find it refreshing not to worry about the closer for the first time in a long time and prefer not
to mess with the bullpen the way it is at all...and if we have no choice but to trade him whatever
we get back for him won't fix the many holes on this team.


Didn't you start a thread prior to the season worrying that our bullpen was going to be our downfall?

Even the best relievers only pitch one-third as much as a starter, and they are less consistent year-to-year, often because the max-effort delivery (even for a lower-velocity guy like Janssen) leads to more injuries. It's quite possible that, as has happened to a couple teams who relied on excellent 'pens last year, that this current group will not be nearly as good next year...if we can sell high on a couple, I think that it's worth doing. Good relievers often have a trade value well beyond their on-field value, and we need assets -- either for trade or the next phase -- badly.


Yup...All I did was ask a simple question because I wanted to see the pro trade CJ perspective
and you provided a scenario where I would make a deal.

The bullpen has been a pleasant surprise to most of us but before I get comfortable with
them I need to see more consistency from them then a half a season.

My stance comes from a buyers/FA point of view but we dont know if Rogers will go
back to moneyball on a tight budget. Ideally I would like to keep CJ as the closer for
now and spend on other holes on the team. If Rogers has us on a tight budget and we
are forced to make trades to get better and since we are a devoid of assets then I would
understand trading him in that scenario.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#63 » by b0na f1de » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:00 am

Be careful when looking at 30 game samples. If you look again tomorrow the player might be like,
tied for 4th or something.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#64 » by s e n s i » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:11 am

b0na f1de wrote:Be careful when looking at 30 game samples. If you look again tomorrow the player might be like,
tied for 4th or something.


haha after tonight he'll probably be all alone in 3rd place on that list. but dude says he's regressing despite every piece of statistical data and straight-up logic obtained through basic observation suggesting otherwise.
galacticos2 wrote:MLB needs to introduce an Amnesty clause. Bautista would be my first victim.

Bautista outplays his contract by more than $70 million over the next four seasons (2013-2016).
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#65 » by Randle McMurphy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:28 am

Jose Reyes' current offensive performance (150 wRC+) would rank 2nd in franchise history among Jays hitters behind Fred McGriff (152 wRC+) and ahead of Jose Bautista (147 wRC+) and Carlos Delgado (139 wRC+). Quite the decline he's shown so far this season.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#66 » by Waylon Mercy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:10 am

Badonkadonk wrote:
Waylon Mercy wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:Thank god people still believe this, otherwise it'd be really hard to flip guys like Janssen and convert a Delabar or Wagner or Loup or w/e into the guy who ends the game (i.e. not even the guy who is in the highest leverage situation much of the time).

Hope AA pulls the trigger and doesn't prove to be a sheep.


Sheep? :crazy:

If you're gonna accuse me of being a sheep at least call me a black sheep.

Not sure what you're reading, but my hope was for AA not to fall into the trap of thinking closers are special. I could care less what your philosophy is, you don't run my favorite team :D

Also not sure why you went on to defend Janssen. Clearly he has value and is a good pitcher, that's the whole point of getting something valuable in return for him. I've always liked him, even as a starter.

And on that point, how do you think closers are "created"? The value of that final out is something that has been overrated for a long, long time ... just like batting average was and just like a bunch of old 'main' statistics have been. Now, front offices are getting wiser, but there's still a gap to exploit. This is where I hope AA reverts back to his ninja ways instead of this absurd and ineffective carbon-copy GM he's become.


Sounds like you've been fapping to the movie Moneyball to much. I like advanced stats as much
as the next guy but people that soley rely on them to form their conclusion while ignoring/looking down
at older stats/philosphies are stupid.

More stats more information is good so it can help with any decision but in the end you have to
factor in everything. There is important elements that dont have statistical data. I find people
are now trying to use advanced stats to debate common sense.

Closers are created when you have no options or someone gets injured...

Common sense says if it aint broke dont fix it. Right now it doesnt need to be fixed and
since the Blue Jays have decided to flex their big market muscles I dont envision us
micromanaging on a tight budget. However if we do our strong assets come from the
pen so we wont have any other alternative.

And it sounds like you are insuating JP Riccardis Assistant GM was good before this season
I must have missed something.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#67 » by Badonkadonk » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:00 pm

Sounds like you don't know what Moneyball was actually about.

When AA was stealing his future CF and future 3B from teams and the media gave him the knickname ninja, pretty sure it had something to do with the quality moves he was making. He made a big mistake this season; even then, he was getting pretty universal praise at the time and the Blue Jays were showing up on every single "offseason winners" list, so hindsight criticism is kind of cheap tbh.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#68 » by Randle McMurphy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:20 pm

What the hell does Moneyball have to do with the question of whether to trade Janssen?
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#69 » by kwamebargnani » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:32 pm

Waylon Mercy wrote:You're nothing but a lame troll who isn't capable of having a debate. You throw
your usual corny insults around without debating any meat and potatoes.
Quit your keyboard warrior troll gimmick and maybe you will be taken seriously.

Don't say the dumbest thing, and maybe you will be taken seriously. Handful of teams have reliable "closers" and considering there are only 30 closer roles available, it's not the hardest position to fill. And I'm not even counting reliable "relievers" that would probably have no trouble closing.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#70 » by kwamebargnani » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:35 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:Sounds like you don't know what Moneyball was actually about.

When AA was stealing his future CF and future 3B from teams and the media gave him the knickname ninja, pretty sure it had something to do with the quality moves he was making. He made a big mistake this season; even then, he was getting pretty universal praise at the time and the Blue Jays were showing up on every single "offseason winners" list, so hindsight criticism is kind of cheap tbh.

Criticizing this off-season isn't really hindsight, as I recall quite a few people didn't like the off-season moves.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#71 » by Badonkadonk » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:33 pm

kwamebargnani wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:Sounds like you don't know what Moneyball was actually about.

When AA was stealing his future CF and future 3B from teams and the media gave him the knickname ninja, pretty sure it had something to do with the quality moves he was making. He made a big mistake this season; even then, he was getting pretty universal praise at the time and the Blue Jays were showing up on every single "offseason winners" list, so hindsight criticism is kind of cheap tbh.

Criticizing this off-season isn't really hindsight, as I recall quite a few people didn't like the off-season moves.


Nothing is ever 100% universally accepted, but to categorize AA's offseason as anything other than critically acclaimed is being disingenuous. Everywhere you looked was pretty much like this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/ ... all-season
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/ne ... edictions/

Has it worked out? Not even close. Ultimately, results are what matter and AA didn't get it done, but let's not revise history.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#72 » by Randle McMurphy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:53 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:
kwamebargnani wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:Sounds like you don't know what Moneyball was actually about.

When AA was stealing his future CF and future 3B from teams and the media gave him the knickname ninja, pretty sure it had something to do with the quality moves he was making. He made a big mistake this season; even then, he was getting pretty universal praise at the time and the Blue Jays were showing up on every single "offseason winners" list, so hindsight criticism is kind of cheap tbh.

Criticizing this off-season isn't really hindsight, as I recall quite a few people didn't like the off-season moves.


Nothing is every 100% universally accepted, but to categorize AA's offseason as anything other than critically acclaimed is being disingenuous. Everywhere you looked was pretty much like this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/ ... all-season
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/ne ... edictions/

Has it worked out? Not even close. Ultimately, results are what matter and AA didn't get it done, but let's not revise history.

Or here: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-10-b ... ff-season/
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#73 » by kwamebargnani » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:00 am

Badonkadonk wrote:
Nothing is every 100% universally accepted, but to categorize AA's offseason as anything other than critically acclaimed is being disingenuous. Everywhere you looked was pretty much like this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/ ... all-season
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/ne ... edictions/

Has it worked out? Not even close. Ultimately, results are what matter and AA didn't get it done, but let's not revise history.

Nobody said anything about what the team was supposed to be capable of. He built a contending roster (on paper that is), but that's not even the point. Most criticism comes from how it was done. To be specific, some people did not like how he managed assets so poorly and how he pretty much emptied everything he had for an old team that has maybe two or three years window. Going all-in rarely works, and the side effect is tremendous.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#74 » by Badonkadonk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:07 am

kwamebargnani wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:
Nothing is every 100% universally accepted, but to categorize AA's offseason as anything other than critically acclaimed is being disingenuous. Everywhere you looked was pretty much like this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/ ... all-season
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/ne ... edictions/

Has it worked out? Not even close. Ultimately, results are what matter and AA didn't get it done, but let's not revise history.

Nobody said anything about what the team was supposed to be capable of. He built a contending roster (on paper that is), but that's not even the point. Most criticism comes from how it was done. To be specific, some people did not like how he managed assets so poorly and how he pretty much emptied everything he had for an old team that has maybe two or three years window. Going all-in rarely works, and the side effect is tremendous.

The point IS that if the team was a contender, the discussion is moot irrespective of the prospects given. This would be different if prospects were dumped and the net result was something that nobody had any confidence in before the season began. The Orioles used to do this for years. The armchair GMs would have plenty of ammunition if that were the case.

If you go for it and the print media plus the stat-heads all agree that this Jays are in the mix for the ALCS, then you've done something right.

When it doesn't work out, the revisionists come out of the woodwork. The only REAL argument that could be made is that the organization should never go "all-in" like that and wait for an abundance of young talent to bubble up, a-la the Rays or A's. But if you're going to augment a core with mature assets that belong to other teams, the Jays pretty much did it the way the 'experts' agreed it should have been done.

The Marlins deal comes down to Nicolino and Marisnick. Hechavarria, Hendo and Yunel are all known quantities and readily replaceable. Even assuming Nicolino and Marisnick carve out solid MLB careers (the latter is off to a rough start), I would argue that Reyes for a few years at least makes it palatable. JJ and Bonifacio have been abysmal. Buehrle at least belongs in a major league rotation.

The Mets deal was a tougher pill to swallow. D'Arnaud looking injury prone has softened the blow a tiny bit, but Syndergaard has been so strong. Still, the reward was supposed to be a bonafide ace who had been pitching at that level for ~3 years. That's a deal you make if a) that's what you actually get in return and b) you have no foreshadowing of the trainwreck that is coming with respect to the rest of your staff, which writes off the season even if he WAS pitching as an ace (i.e. Morrow, Romero and JJ were all supposed to be legit, with Happ in reserve).

Sorry, but I don't see how this is anything assessing the wreckage post-fact.
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Re: AA must be high to make this statement 

Post#75 » by MikeM » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:15 am

The only move I winced on was the inclusion of Syndergaard for Dickey. The rest were all fine moves for me. It did, however, worry me a bit that they included D'Arnaud, not because I thought he'd be a superstar, but because they picked JPA over him.

But man, the only starter that wasn't a completely terrible surprise was Buehrle. Everyone else imploded, even Happ somehow died. Just such a shame.

The luster has worn off AA for sure but he's still a top 10 GM in my mind. Personally I feel we have a lot of talent in the very low minor league levels and can get to where we want to be with a couple nice moves this off-season and a rotation that performs *almost* to what they're capable of.

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