Preseason, have the Pacers ever looked better?

[8305]

Going into a season I have never seen a more talented, cohesive unit. Unfortunately, the Heat look every bit as formidable as the 1997/98 Bulls. I also think the Nets and Bulls are better than any non Pacer/Bulls 1997/98 team. So, the challenge is monumental.

If healthy this will be the best NBA Pacer team in history.

Thoughts?

[Wizop]

Mark Jackson >>> George Hill
Reggie Miller > Paul George
Jalen Rose < Danny Granger (if 100%)
Dale Davis <= David West
Rick Smits < Roy Hibbert

Antonio Davis > Luis Scola
Chris Mullen > Lance Stephenson

pretty close. may come down to whether CJ can be better than Travis Best.

[Grang33r]

Mark Jackson >>> George Hill
Reggie Miller > Paul George
Jalen Rose < Danny Granger (if 100%)
Dale Davis <= David West
Rick Smits < Roy Hibbert

Antonio Davis > Luis Scola
Chris Mullen > Lance Stephenson

pretty close. may come down to whether CJ can be better than Travis Best.

While not there yet, Paul George has the potential of being the best Indiana Pacer of all time.

[Wizop]

we're talking NBA Pacers, right? Paul is very good but to me best of all time brings Roger Brown and George McGinnis into the picture and those were very special players. Indianapolis's PBS station had a very good special on Rajah this year. if you missed it, you might watch for it. Big Mac, IMHO, changed the game. he was one of, if not the very first, modern power forward with the size to bang inside and also the range to shoot threes. he was Karl Malone with three point range. and both Rajah and Big Mac played in an era when no one lifted weights and everyone smoked in the locker room at half time. Mel Daniels is the third player from that era with his number in the rafters but Paul has the potential to surpass Mel. he could surpass the others too. I'm not saying he can't. I'm just saying the bar is very high.

we can't leave out Reggie either. he played for what was it 18 years and came back every fall with a new wrinkle. Danny Granger set records for improvement early in his career too as I remember. didn't he increase his scoring average by over 5 points a year for an unprecedented number of years? obviously, Danny's position in the all time hierarchy will depend upon how he recovers from his injury and whether we can keep him past this year.

[8305]

Mark Jackson >>> George Hill
Reggie Miller > Paul George
Jalen Rose < Danny Granger (if 100%)
Dale Davis <= David West
Rick Smits < Roy Hibbert

Antonio Davis > Luis Scola
Chris Mullen > Lance Stephenson

pretty close. may come down to whether CJ can be better than Travis Best.

Not sure I'm in total agreement with this assessment. Mark Jackson couldn't guard a tree and Chris Mullen wasn't much better. On the team we've assembled I like Hill better than Jackson. I think people are inclined to over-rate Mark Jackson.

Both Scola and West are much better offensive players than either of the Davis brothers. Basically I like the current 4/5 position better than the earlier version.

Is Paul George a better match against LeBron James than Reggie was against Michael?

We simply didn't have the athletes to match with the very athletic Bulls team of that era. This team is closer to physically matching up with its elite counterpart than our 90's era squad was in my opinion. It's not as time tested but I like its chances better with George and Hibbert than I did trying to get it done with MIller and Smits.

[Wizop]

I like our chances better this year too. even though LeBron beat us with a three step layup just like Ewing used to do, I think the refs are more even handed today than they were with Jordan.

[mikepacernation]

I like our chances better this year too. even though LeBron beat us with a three step layup just like Ewing used to do, I think the refs are more even handed today than they were with Jordan.

Oh yea I think the refs get worse each year

[Miller4ever]

Even handed means the opposite of worse for refs.

[SmashMouthRod]

I know many will disagree with me but I still think that the 2003/04 (61 win team) and 2004/05 teams were the best Pacers teams that they ever have had. Those were championship caliber teams. I know its taboo to speak of Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest to Pacers fans after the brawl and all the other bad moments; but there's never been another Pacers team that had the best perimeter defender; and best paint defender who also happened to be an MVP candidate on the same team. Furthermore the supporting cast included Foster who may have been the best rebounder in the league at the time other than Ben Wallace. Reggie Miller one of the greatest clutch performers of all-time; (in my opinion he was the best clutch shooter ever). Stephen Jackson (2004/05) or Al Harrington (2003/04) both guys who may have been considered to be role players but were star players and clutch performers. Not to mention Coaching; Carlisle; Mike Brown and Harter some of the best to ever do it. I still believe the 2004/05 Pacers win the championship if the Brawl doesn't happen. And the 2003/04 Pacers win the championship if O'Neal doesn't get hurt in game 4 with Indy in the lead up 2 games to 1 against the eventual champ Pistons. But I love the team for next season. I believe this team has a chance to give the Pacers fans a championship.

[23artest23]

That was part of what really ticked me off with Sterns punishment of the Pacers (and lack of for Pistons.) We had the best team in the NBA that year and while it would have been awkward winning a championship after brawling months before, we had a team that was talented enough to do so. Unfortunately, Stern personally dismantled our team and chances for a championship. I had never seen a Pacer team that good in my 25 years and looking back, it is incredibly disappointing to look back at the destruction of such a great team at the hands of Stern. The Malice in the Palace and that championship quality team that was dismantled in such a way are things I'll never forget.

On the plus side, this years team looks comparable in my mind. Tinsley was a far better assist man but George is far more rounded. Reggie and Ron versus Paul and Danny are relatively even. JO was at his best but David provides most of what JO did at a better efficiency. Rik was a solid Center but I prefer Roy. Quick comparisons on the bench are going a bit far for me but I like how our bench is looking right now regardless of whether it is Lance or Danny who starts. There's an all NBA team down in Florida and an Allstar team somewhere in New York that get a whole lot of love (definitely not from me) and a few good rosters out West as well. Get rid of the all NBA team and the all star team, I'd like to think we would be the prohibitive favorite.

[Wizop]

but there's never been another Pacers team that had the best perimeter defender; and best paint defender who also happened to be an MVP candidate on the same team.

I take it you watched the Reggie show on TV last night since he used almost the same words. good show.

I remember watching the brawl game and feeling really good about our team and then it all went wrong.

[xBulletproof]

The best team the Pacers have had was the brawl team. There's been a lot of years I went into a season thinking we had a chance, but that was the one year I thought something had to go wrong to stop us. Then it did. I will go to my grave any day between now and 50 years from now believing if Artest had held up that day that we win the title and Reggie retires on top.

[8305]

I too felt pretty good about the Pacers while watching "the Brawl" game. There were probably a couple of years where I felt as good about those teams chances of winning it all as I do now. But with hindsight there were far too many mentally weak players on that team to survive the pressure of an Eastern Conference Finals and a Finals series against the level of talent that you inevitably face. Besides that Detroit was simply better. Look at the matchups.

Billips/Tinsley (no contest)
Hamilton/Miller (by that time Hamilton was the better player)
Prince/Artest (Prince's length gave Artest fits)
R. Wallace/O'Neal (Wallace generally treated O'Neal like his little brother)
B. Wallace/Foster (Wallace was simply a better version of Foster)

I'd agree that 2003-2005 had the talent needed to win it all. What's great about the current team is that it has comparable talent and is comprised of guys who seem capable of putting individual egos aside and allowing the main driver to be team success.

[Wizop]

and Reggie was very open in saying on the program I watched last night that the brawl team was not "composed of guys who [were] capable of putting individual egos aside and allowing the main drive to be team success." he said he tried to moderate unsuccessfully between Artest and JO. that was more of an admission than I'd ever heard before but I have long thought that JO was a clique leader in a divided locker room and I've often written that here when others have talked of bringing him back.

[SmashMouthRod]

but there's never been another Pacers team that had the best perimeter defender; and best paint defender who also happened to be an MVP candidate on the same team.

I take it you watched the Reggie show on TV last night since he used almost the same words. good show.

I remember watching the brawl game and feeling really good about our team and then it all went wrong.

I guess its coincidental; I didnt see the Reggie Show; those were just my thoughts about that team. I remember watching Artest harassing and clamping guys like Paul Pierce and many other very good players during his Pacers years. I also remember many times if they were able to get away from Artest; O'Neal making the block which then made their escape an exercise in futility. it just seemed to be the perfect team bc everyone played their roles so well. We'll never know about the what if's but that team had great players and coaching. This season I expect for the team to have a great chance to win it all but the Heat still concerns me.

[8305]

That's pretty much been my understanding of the situation too.

I think we've all learned that a team can't expect anything other than limited short term success when forced to accomondate the whims of a mentally unstable team member. For the best of team leaders dealing with Artest would have been somewhere between a remarkable challenge to impossible. Based on Reggie's comments it sounds like Jermaine could have done a better job.

My greater beef with Jermaine was that he was being paid to be team leader/face of the franchise. I never felt he did the work you expect when the team makes that level of committment. Never thought he did the necessary work to properly rehab from injury or condition during the offseason. The successful teams are always blessed with a driven natural leader. Jermaine was being paid like one but he didn't have the mind set to match the responsibility.

I wouldn't bring him back either.

[SmashMouthRod]

I too felt pretty good about the Pacers while watching "the Brawl" game. There were probably a couple of years where I felt as good about those teams chances of winning it all as I do now. But with hindsight there were far too many mentally weak players on that team to survive the pressure of an Eastern Conference Finals and a Finals series against the level of talent that you inevitably face. Besides that Detroit was simply better. Look at the matchups.

Billips/Tinsley (no contest)
Hamilton/Miller (by that time Hamilton was the better player)
Prince/Artest (Prince's length gave Artest fits)
R. Wallace/O'Neal (Wallace generally treated O'Neal like his little brother)
B. Wallace/Foster (Wallace was simply a better version of Foster)

In the 2003/04 playoffs they led the series against Detroit 2 games to 1 and had the lead in game 4 until Jermaine got a bad knee injury. Furthermore the game at the Palace got out of control bc the Pacers blew them out on their home court. I dont think theres any question; that the Pacers were the better team; they just had some bad luck.

[Wizop]

it may be coincidental but Reggie used almost exactly the same words saying we had the best perimeter defender and the best paint defender. the show is worth watching if you can catch a replay.

I also found Reggie's Artest/JO split talk interesting. I always blamed Bob Kravitz for running Ron Ron out of town and I remember being told that Bob got all his information from talking to JO.

[Scoot McGroot]

Bird and Walsh couldn't give a hoot what Kravvy writes. Ultimately, Ronnie ran himself out of town. His public trade demand from the seat of his car on live local news to Calabro was just so monumentally across the line that he couldn't walk it back 48 hours later when he changed his mind.

Ultimately, we should have just dealt him ASAP for Peja as was offered immediately, rather than make the rounds around the league and waiting a month or so to then trade him for Peja in the end.

[SmashMouthRod]

and Reggie was very open in saying on the program I watched last night that the brawl team was not "composed of guys who [were] capable of putting individual egos aside and allowing the main drive to be team success." he said he tried to moderate unsuccessfully between Artest and JO. that was more of an admission than I'd ever heard before but I have long thought that JO was a clique leader in a divided locker room and I've often written that here when others have talked of bringing him back.

I agree 100% about the egos. The divided locker room was bc of Artest and O'Neal's disdain. But thats part of a coaches job to mesh the egos into a winner. They were both young guys at the time that needed mentors. Its a common trait on very talented teams to have ego problems. There are plenty of other examples of great teams from the past with bad ego problems but they found ways to success. Bird and McHale; Jordan and Pippen; Kobe and Shaq. More recent Westbrook and Durant have their problems and Scott Brooks holds it together.