Official Speculation Thread (Pt.LX Offseason Edition)

[londoncollin]

Who picked Green? Cuz I think that's a bigger mess up then the Harden trade.

I mean Green wasn't an awful pick or anything like that. But imagine how good they could have been with Noah.

[J the Drafter]

The Perkins trade did give the Thunder a better center then Nenad Kristic. I remember an SB Nation article title saying that the Jeff Green and power forward and mediocre defense were keeping the Thunder from being elite. In that respect Kendrick was helpful, especially since he'd helped the Celtics get back to the Finals the year before by helping to guard Howard.

[Ducklett]

Now that Wall is locked up, what are we gonna do with all this sacred cap space next year?

[The Real Dalic]

Now that Wall is locked up, what are we gonna do with all this sacred cap space next year?

If we get Wiggins we can fill out the roster with some good role players.

[Bensational]

2nd part of Simmons article:

To the Orlando Magic, who seemed totally screwed by the Dwightmare as recently as 12 months ago … only now, they're earning e-mails like this one (courtesy of Fort Wayne reader Jared Benz): "How come no one has revisited how Orlando somehow, against all odds, managed to not only win, but completely pillage everyone else involved in the Dwight Howard trade?"

Let's see … they gave up one year of Howard and ended up with a promising starting center (Nikola Vucevic), a starting 2-guard (Arron Afflalo) and a semi-promising swingman (Mo Harkless) … they dumped Jason Richardson's semi-unseemly contract on Philly … they picked up three first-rounders (Denver's 2014 pick, the Lakers' 2017 pick and a far-away-in-the-future Philly pick) … and they worsened their 2013 team enough that they landed the no. 2 overall pick (Victor Oladipo). Jared is right, that was an outright pillaging! At the time, I criticized the Magic for not getting Andrew Bynum and made multiple jokes about then-new Orlando GM Rob Hennigan being overmatched. You know what? I'm giving myself a quote

To me, for doing such a mediocre impersonation of a wannabe NBA GM in this column. I wouldn't have done any better than most of these failed guys. Well, except for David Kahn. I would have done better than him. Anyway, combine Orlando's Howard haul with its Harris-Redick hijacking and Hennigan could start putting "Sam Presti 2.0" on his business cards. Let's hope he doesn't trade Oladipo for 20 cents on the dollar in four years. (Sorry, I had to.)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/952 ... run-part-2

This still seems silly to me. We had the worst record in the league last year and will be just as bad this year. Saying we won that trade is like saying wins don't matter. Can't really count Oladipo in the trade since that is kind of like saying the Cavs traded Lebron for Kyrie. Us sucking would have happened whether Dwight left via free agency or got traded.

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

[Reverse_Angle]

If I was Detroit and also being a Detroit fan knowing Joe D, they won't trade another 1st, but I bet Joe D. would do a 2nd and Stuckey for AA on the drop of a dime.

And, Stuckey has played PG most of his career, is an Expiring, is 6'5" while playing decent defense and can score. No brainer for Orlando and Detroit in my opinion.

Detroit has like 4 PG's right now.

In this instance, no-brainer means if Orlando had no brain and acted like an idiot?

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[SOUL]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jItWYVGBur8[/youtube]

Great interview as a whole if you're a fan of The Wire, WHERES WALLACE, STRING!

Skip to 37:10 though for Oladipo, they talk about him for a few minutes which is pretty cool. Wallace was saying how he didn't want to say it since it'll be controversial, but thinks Dipo has a the moxie of a young Jordan.

[KingRobb02]

2nd part of Simmons article:





http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/952 ... run-part-2

This still seems silly to me. We had the worst record in the league last year and will be just as bad this year. Saying we won that trade is like saying wins don't matter. Can't really count Oladipo in the trade since that is kind of like saying the Cavs traded Lebron for Kyrie. Us sucking would have happened whether Dwight left via free agency or got traded.

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

Young players do have a tendency to get better but that doesn't mean we aren't the worst team of the 4. Basically, our best hope of getting better is to draft well over the next few years. By most accounts our best player is Harris and he had nothing to do with the trade. Saying we won that trade is like saying the Cavs won the luke walton for Ramon Sessions trade because the Cavs still have Walton and Sessions left the Lakers within months. No one thinks that do they? From your point of view, we might not have lost yet, but we definitely haven't won.

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[KingRobb02]

The Perkins trade did give the Thunder a better center then Nenad Kristic. I remember an SB Nation article title saying that the Jeff Green and power forward and mediocre defense were keeping the Thunder from being elite. In that respect Kendrick was helpful, especially since he'd helped the Celtics get back to the Finals the year before by helping to guard Howard.

Boston fans hated Perkins. His 4th quarter minutes went to rasheed in the run to the finals and then, the Celtics were so happy with Perkins in the bench that they brought in Shaq to bury him some more. There is no excuse for Presti to chase a center who averages 6 rebounds power game, was coming off an injury, and saw due for a large extension.

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[tiderulz]

The Perkins trade did give the Thunder a better center then Nenad Kristic. I remember an SB Nation article title saying that the Jeff Green and power forward and mediocre defense were keeping the Thunder from being elite. In that respect Kendrick was helpful, especially since he'd helped the Celtics get back to the Finals the year before by helping to guard Howard.

Boston fans hated Perkins. His 4th quarter minutes went to rasheed in the run to the finals and then, the Celtics were so happy with Perkins in the bench that they brought in Shaq to bury him some more. There is no excuse for Presti to chase a center who averages 6 rebounds power game, was coming off an injury, and saw due for a large extension.

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i dont know about that. You talk with anyone from Boston and I always hear, if Perkins was healthy in game 7 vs LA, we would have won. I am not a big fan of Perkins. He seems to want to impart toughness to his team, but he is horrible offensively, cant play help defense, very slow. His 1 on 1 defense is generally okay, but that is it. He is like a thicker, slower Joel Anthony, but at least Anthony can block shots.

[OrlandoNed]

This still seems silly to me. We had the worst record in the league last year and will be just as bad this year. Saying we won that trade is like saying wins don't matter. Can't really count Oladipo in the trade since that is kind of like saying the Cavs traded Lebron for Kyrie. Us sucking would have happened whether Dwight left via free agency or got traded.

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

Young players do have a tendency to get better but that doesn't mean we aren't the worst team of the 4. Basically, our best hope of getting better is to draft well over the next few years. By most accounts our best player is Harris and he had nothing to do with the trade. Saying we won that trade is like saying the Cavs won the luke walton for Ramon Sessions trade because the Cavs still have Walton and Sessions left the Lakers within months. No one thinks that do they? From your point of view, we might not have lost yet, but we definitely haven't won.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Yeah because the Walton-Sessions trade was just as big as trading the best center in the league who was assured to be out the door (who handcuffed us to trading him to only 2 teams) and 2 bad contracts for a 2nd year player who was the 2nd best rebounder in the league (Vuc), a great young prospect (Harkless), a good veteran SG (AA) and 3 1sts.

[Optimus_Steel]

The Perkins trade did give the Thunder a better center then Nenad Kristic. I remember an SB Nation article title saying that the Jeff Green and power forward and mediocre defense were keeping the Thunder from being elite. In that respect Kendrick was helpful, especially since he'd helped the Celtics get back to the Finals the year before by helping to guard Howard.

Boston fans hated Perkins. His 4th quarter minutes went to rasheed in the run to the finals and then, the Celtics were so happy with Perkins in the bench that they brought in Shaq to bury him some more. There is no excuse for Presti to chase a center who averages 6 rebounds power game, was coming off an injury, and saw due for a large extension.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

i dont know about that. You talk with anyone from Boston and I always hear, if Perkins was healthy in game 7 vs LA, we would have won. I am not a big fan of Perkins. He seems to want to impart toughness to his team, but he is horrible offensively, cant play help defense, very slow. His 1 on 1 defense is generally okay, but that is it. He is like a thicker, slower Joel Anthony, but at least Anthony can block shots.

That was before he injured his knee and lost the little quickness and athleticism he had. He is not the same player he was then plus KG really covered his ass.

What OKC really messed up was voiding the Tyson Chandler trade. They would have been soo much better with him compared to Perkins. Major blunder, among others.

[Optimus_Steel]

This still seems silly to me. We had the worst record in the league last year and will be just as bad this year. Saying we won that trade is like saying wins don't matter. Can't really count Oladipo in the trade since that is kind of like saying the Cavs traded Lebron for Kyrie. Us sucking would have happened whether Dwight left via free agency or got traded.

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

Young players do have a tendency to get better but that doesn't mean we aren't the worst team of the 4. Basically, our best hope of getting better is to draft well over the next few years. By most accounts our best player is Harris and he had nothing to do with the trade. Saying we won that trade is like saying the Cavs won the luke walton for Ramon Sessions trade because the Cavs still have Walton and Sessions left the Lakers within months. No one thinks that do they? From your point of view, we might not have lost yet, but we definitely haven't won.

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I disagree. Its obvious to see that we are in a better position compared to the other 3 teams considering the assets that were involved in the trade. Dwight left LA for nothing back and they lost a draft pick. Philly lost one of the best young centers in the game, a young swingman with talent, and draft picks plus being stock with Jason Richardson knee, nothing to show for Bynum, Den let Iggy go in FA and lost draft picks. We still have young assets with value that we can keep and watch them grow or use in trades, as well as more draft picks.

[KingRobb02]

The Perkins trade did give the Thunder a better center then Nenad Kristic. I remember an SB Nation article title saying that the Jeff Green and power forward and mediocre defense were keeping the Thunder from being elite. In that respect Kendrick was helpful, especially since he'd helped the Celtics get back to the Finals the year before by helping to guard Howard.

Boston fans hated Perkins. His 4th quarter minutes went to rasheed in the run to the finals and then, the Celtics were so happy with Perkins in the bench that they brought in Shaq to bury him some more. There is no excuse for Presti to chase a center who averages 6 rebounds power game, was coming off an injury, and saw due for a large extension.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

i dont know about that. You talk with anyone from Boston and I always hear, if Perkins was healthy in game 7 vs LA, we would have won. I am not a big fan of Perkins. He seems to want to impart toughness to his team, but he is horrible offensively, cant play help defense, very slow. His 1 on 1 defense is generally okay, but that is it. He is like a thicker, slower Joel Anthony, but at least Anthony can block shots.

Simmons is probably the biggest celtics fan on the planet, or at least the most outspoken. He is on record as saying that is a ridiculous argument because Perkins is so bad at free throws that he never played crunch time. Or more specifically, he says with Rondo refusing to shoot and Perkins being so bad at it, there is no way Doc would have played 3 on 5 offensively on the biggest game of the season. Plus, Perkins isn't really a rebounder. Look at his numbers.

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[KingRobb02]

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

Young players do have a tendency to get better but that doesn't mean we aren't the worst team of the 4. Basically, our best hope of getting better is to draft well over the next few years. By most accounts our best player is Harris and he had nothing to do with the trade. Saying we won that trade is like saying the Cavs won the luke walton for Ramon Sessions trade because the Cavs still have Walton and Sessions left the Lakers within months. No one thinks that do they? From your point of view, we might not have lost yet, but we definitely haven't won.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Yeah because the Walton-Sessions trade was just as big as trading the best center in the league who was assured to be out the door (who handcuffed us to trading him to only 2 teams) and 2 bad contracts for a 2nd year player who was the 2nd best rebounder in the league (Vuc), a great young prospect (Harkless), a good veteran SG (AA) and 3 1sts.

Making the best of bad situation is not the same as winning.

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[KingRobb02]

I know this line gets trotted out a lot, but Durant lost for 2 years when he first came in. I wouldn't hold it against our young guys that they weren't instant winners. Vuc is a solid big man (and although I'm suspect on his defense, the numbers show he's actually very good. Which means he is the complete package). Although, Harris may turn out to be the best piece we landed last season and he wasn't even part of the Howard trade.

Point is, wins at this point are premature. We definitely came out of that deal the winner though, considering the aftermath less than a year later. We're the only team that still has their players on the team, and 2/3's of our guys are young prospects. That would certainly qualify for mopping the floor in my book.

Young players do have a tendency to get better but that doesn't mean we aren't the worst team of the 4. Basically, our best hope of getting better is to draft well over the next few years. By most accounts our best player is Harris and he had nothing to do with the trade. Saying we won that trade is like saying the Cavs won the luke walton for Ramon Sessions trade because the Cavs still have Walton and Sessions left the Lakers within months. No one thinks that do they? From your point of view, we might not have lost yet, but we definitely haven't won.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I disagree. Its obvious to see that we are in a better position compared to the other 3 teams considering the assets that were involved in the trade. Dwight left LA for nothing back and they lost a draft pick. Philly lost one of the best young centers in the game, a young swingman with talent, and draft picks plus being stock with Jason Richardson knee, nothing to show for Bynum, Den let Iggy go in FA and lost draft picks. We still have young assets with value that we can keep and watch them grow or use in trades, as well as more draft picks.

Unless those assets and lost assets start correlating to wins and losses, all we have to go on is what has happened since the trade. We lost the biggest asset in the trade (whether he wanted to be here or not) and had the worst team last year. We might finish closer to the Sixers this year, but unless you think the Harkless and Vucevic are responsible for 20 wins by themselves this year, it isn't really fair to say we came out the victors. The point is to win games still.

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[Just Plain Mark]

The problem is that your standard of measurment for who "won" the trade isn't shared by many others. Did OKC "win" the Harden trade because OKC had a better record than Houston? I don't think so.

The Magic got the best of the Howard trade because of the value they got in return for the value they sent out in the short term and the long term. I don't think it makes sense to evaluate trades only on the season in which the trade occured, otherwise GM's should never trade a player for a draft pick - even a lotto pick - because the lotto pick is indeterminite and can't help the team win games right then.

Furthermore, the Magic's record before BBD's injury was very respectable so even by your evaluation the Magic could make a strong claim for getting the best out of the trade.

[BadMofoPimp]

If I was Detroit and also being a Detroit fan knowing Joe D, they won't trade another 1st, but I bet Joe D. would do a 2nd and Stuckey for AA on the drop of a dime.

And, Stuckey has played PG most of his career, is an Expiring, is 6'5" while playing decent defense and can score. No brainer for Orlando and Detroit in my opinion.

Detroit has like 4 PG's right now.

In this instance, no-brainer means if Orlando had no brain and acted like an idiot?

Damn, they are catching on to me. I really want AA in Detroit. But, Stuckey is an expiring who has been a starter at PG in this league while being a big PG that can play D.

A lineup of

Stuck 6'5
Ola 6'5
Hark 6'7
Harris 6'8 or BBD 6'9
Vucci 7'

Would be sick.

[KingRobb02]

The problem is that your standard of measurment for who "won" the trade isn't shared by many others. Did OKC "win" the Harden trade because OKC had a better record than Houston? I don't think so.

The Magic got the best of the Howard trade because of the value they got in return for the value they sent out in the short term and the long term. I don't think it makes sense to evaluate trades only on the season in which the trade occured, otherwise GM's should never trade a player for a draft pick - even a lotto pick - because the lotto pick is indeterminite and can't help the team win games right then.

Furthermore, the Magic's record before BBD's injury was very respectable so even by your evaluation the Magic could make a strong claim for getting the best out of the trade.

Maybe there is no winner sometimes, but I really think it's silly to say that the team who was worst last year and will be worst again this year won a trade. If people want to re-visit the analysis in a couple years when Vucevic and Harkless are all-stars and Afflalo breaks the 3PT record, I'm cool with that. But saying we won because we have pieces that might be something one day seems illogical.

[BadMofoPimp]

Win, lose or draw, there will always be people who are happy and unhappy with how things transpired. Magic could have let Dwight walk and with a good GM making FA and draft decisions, still end up with a great team within 3-4 years. It really depends on how good the teams staff does in their talent evaluations and contract negotiations.