Please critique my hypothesis.

[scottcarman]

I have heard Corona's version of how he believes this off season has transpired, so I thought I would throw mine out there for critique.

Ultimately, Josh believes that he is a very savvy basketball mind. I think he was upset that most of the credit for the Nuggets success last year was pointed towards Ujiri and Karl, as demonstrated by them winning the executive and coach of the year awards. Josh wants to 'prove' that he is really the reason for the success of the Nuggets so decides that Ujiri needs to move on if anyone is going to believe that he put together the team. He wants to show that he can do this with different GM's so that he is seen as the common thread.

It would not have been hard for Josh to let Ujiri know that he was not likely to get extended and he wanted a solution where he didn't look bad, so Ujiri contacts his old buddies in Toronto, who are more than willing to snatch up the executive of the year (as voted by other GM's).

I think you are naive if you think Ujiri just went to Josh and said 'please don't match' out of the blue. There was obviously a falling out, and Kroenke did not want Ujiri here. If you can't read between the lines, then I don't know what to tell you. So I don't really buy the argument that Ujiri just wanted to go to Toronto and that's it. I think Ujiri earned the right to be paid well by winning the Executive of the year and Josh did not want to reward a job well done. This all makes sense, and validates why they picked Connelly, a relatively inexperienced candidate that Kroenke will be seen more as a role player.

So now Kroenke had to consider GK. I agree that it doesn't make much sense to have a lame duck coach (1-year deal) because then the players tend to run the organization. But a coach that just got an extension is not likely going anywhere. GK was one of the few coaches in the league that actually had power over his players by not rewarding stupid play and defense. If Hamilton, Faried, McGee did not play smart defense then their minutes were going to get cut and they knew it.

When I look back at all the season's that GK has coached, in general, I think he has exceeded expectations based on performance vs the prediciton for each season. I don't think it is a fluke when a coach consistently wins around 50 games a season. I don't think GK is the best coach in the league, but he is far better than any coach that was available to the Nuggets. Are we really better with Brian Shaw? The guy didn't lose in the playoffs, because he could never get a head coaching job even after many interviews. That tells me the guy is not extremely charismatic, and I think he is going to have his hands full with a roster full of 14 to 15 players that legitimately will have some complaints about playing time.

Kroenke obviously makes his decision and let's Karl go, because he doesn't want to commit to him but doesn't want a lame duck coach either. Again, the organization is not willing to reward Karl on a job well earned. He won coach of the year, set the franchise record for wins (was that predicted?), set the franchise record for consecutive wins (certainly not predicted). He should have been extended for three additional years. In 4 years time he would be near the coaching wins record with many of them as a Nugget, and he would finally have a roster with the Nuggets that was stable for 3-4 years.

So Iggy sees the organization not willing to rightfully reward a coach and GM, and they are more interested in stroking egos and the bottom line then winning basketball games. He doesn't understand why a team that just won 57 games would fire the coach and GM. So when he says that culture is different between here and GS, it has nothing to do with Christianity. It has to do with an organization that is either willing to reward a job well done, or it is not. I don't think Iggy believed in the culture that the Nuggets are willing to sacrifice to win. However, GS was very willing to sacrifice and has shown a willingness and boldness to move this team into a contender this year. The GS warriors are showing much more of a culture that wants to win at all costs, but the Nuggets do not. In general it's the same argument that the LA Lakers have a good culture but the Clippers did not. Sterling used to let all of his lottery players go and had a small payroll. It's only recently that Sterling has decided to pay Paul and Griffin.

I think Ujiri/Karl/Iggy all wanted to come back and keep this roster together for 3-4 years or be ready for a trade for LMA/Love/Horford.

My question to Corona is, do you think the Nuggets had a good off-season? Do you really disagree with the majority of sportswriters in the Nation and believe that the Nuggets didn't just take a step back?

[MidMountain]

There's a lot of interpretation of people's motives here, without any evidence.

[Teens On Acid]

There's a lot of interpretation of people's motives here, without any evidence.

This.

Theres alot of speculation without facts lately.

Fact: Masai left on his own accord. Josh confirmed it. Masai has never denied it.
Fact: so did Iguodala.

Its time to let it go and focus on what we have and look to the future.

And please, leave analysing how the team as constructed will perform until youve actually seen it


Sent from my GT-I9505 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[corona]

GK was one of the few coaches in the league that actually had power over his players by not rewarding stupid play and defense. If Hamilton, Faried, McGee did not play smart defense then their minutes were going to get cut and they knew it.

you don't think it's completely ridiculous that the rule didn't apply at all to andre miller & corey brewer?
what sort of standing does a coach really have if he has blatant double standards and pet players?

Are we really better with Brian Shaw? The guy didn't lose in the playoffs, because he could never get a head coaching job even after many interviews. That tells me the guy is not extremely charismatic, and I think he is going to have his hands full with a roster full of 14 to 15 players that legitimately will have some complaints about playing time.

the guy you're talking about is touted as the king of player relationships. i couldn't care less about charisma in an interview with a GM/owner. i think most lakers players/coaches would say he was the one that was holding the whole shaq/kobe thing together at its peak...getting them to get along well enough to compete on the floor and win 3 titles....both while he was a player and an assistant coach. randy foye coming up to him complaining about getting 15mpg instead of the 27 he got with utah is a joke in comparison.

and fwiw, teams weren't exactly lining up to get in on the george karl coaching sweepstakes after he got fired.
did he even get an interview?

However, GS was very willing to sacrifice and has shown a willingness and boldness to move this team into a contender this year.

i think most unbiased fans would say they made rather lateral moves. jack and landry were big for them...and iguodala cost a lot of picks, a lot of money, and it remains to be seen how much of a difference maker he'll be since he doesn't necessarily plug right into their spaced 3 point shooting offense. and they were probably still a gallo ACL away from losing in the first round anyways.

My question to Corona is, do you think the Nuggets had a good off-season? Do you really disagree with the majority of sportswriters in the Nation and believe that the Nuggets didn't just take a step back?

it's all relative...

we didn't get dwight howard so it was a failure.
we didn't trade gallinari for lebron james so it was a failure.

if your whole reasoning is based on this premise that kroenke is an evil sports owner that's 100% selfish and wants to look like he's in complete control and built a winning roster himself and can't stand to see his GM or coach get any credit.....thus is the cause for ujiri leaving and iguodala leaving....then sure, its a bad offseason. remember, the easy thing to do as an owner to get a lot of great credit and publicity is bring back the guys that the media says gave you all the success. match the ujiri offer. give karl an extension for setting the franchise wins/streak record. pay iggy for having such a successful playoffs and being a part of the 57 wins. the hard thing is recognizing when those aren't the right moves going forward, and sticking your head out to make those tough decisions....knowing that if the nuggets do fail this season and next, you look like a total fool to all the fans, all the owners, and your own father.

if you take all the information in and come to the conclusion that ujiri's offer was too high for a market like ours to match, plus ujiri wanted to leave for his own reasons, and iguodala was leaving unless we overpaid him by quite a bit....then it's an understandable offseason with an eye towards the future. i've never contended they just got better....so yes, they took a step back for the 13-14 season (which was happening regardless, given the gallo injury....especially pre-good news). it's about how much of a step back, and how that effects the future.

all the fuss over losing iguodala and koufos is a little ridiculous imho. it's not like they just handcuffed the franchise for the next 4 years, or set the team back to the lottery. i can tell you right now i'd be way more freaking out if they panicked and signed monta ellis. or gave karl a 3 year extension and decided to up their iguodala offer to 4 years 60 million. or 5 years, 70 million. or brought back corey brewer because he tried so hard. we're still in a GREAT position going forward. if an all-star comes up, we have more than enough assets to put in a legit offer, and still surround that player with talent & depth.

yes, the SG position is thin for proven, positive impact players. yes, the backup PG situation is a bit up in the air/short. that's okay. we weren't gonna win the title with lawson/iguodala/gallo/faried/koufos anyways. and every team has weaknesses......the thunder & warriors don't have benches, the rockets don't have a shooting PF, the spurs have manu ginobili, the clippers cant shoot FTs and need to implement a new system as well, memphis still doesn't have enough guys who can dribble drive/score from the perimeter. we're still a move or two away....but haven't burdened ourselves with an overpaid player, or an old player, or a ridiculously injury prone one (gallo's getting there though).

let's stop bitching and see what fournier & mcgee do with more playing time. see what positives shaw brings. see how the andre miller/robinson situation unfolds. see how gallo recovers from surgery. etc

[Teens On Acid]

preach Corona

[ujirifan]

Hey, scott. While some of your assumptions may be a little too extreme, i.e., Ujiri MIGHT really prefer living in Toronto, a true world class city, to Denver, which could have been a significant factor, all in all your view, particularly on the state of the current roster, is much more realistic than corona's.

Of course, your speculations are just that, speculations. But it is exactly the same for corona. Except, of course, he wins at least one OMG! for his ridiculous conjecture about religion being the factor which led Iggy to sign with G.S.

There are, of course, certain undeniable facts. The first is that the notoriously cheap Kroenkes - and it is quite plausible, if not provable that Stan is still involved in money decisions - saved millions on not matching Toronto's offer to Ujiri and millions more by not extending Karl for even two years.

The second is that the consensus around the league is that Iggy is a proven near All-Star while Hickson has had one good season - and that is only based upon his gross PPG and RPG - Foye is a proven bench player and Arthur is the same at most.

corona obviously does not think that many WC teams - Clips, Rockets, Spurs and oh yeah, without a doubt, G.S are much improved since he has confidently ruled out - unlike many national commentators - the possibility of the Nugz dropping to lottery status.

While he won't just come right out and say it, he is a true believer in JoshBoy knowing what he is doing, which you and I are not.

Only time will tell but one thing is certain for me. As a guy who watches almost every Nugz game, I most definitely prefer watching the last year's Nuggets style of winning play to that of the Grizzlies. While I appreciate good D, I hate watching a steady diet of games in which the winning team struggles to score much more than 90 points.

[denvers_finest]

Only time will tell but one thing is certain for me. As a guy who watches almost every Nugz game, I most definitely prefer watching the last year's Nuggets style of winning play to that of the Grizzlies. While I appreciate good D, I hate watching a steady diet of games in which the winning team struggles to score much more than 90 points.

I much prefer watching Nuggets basketball in June, which wasn't happening with Karl as the coach and the fast paced style he teaches.

9 years of fast break basketball under Karl (which was pretty similar to the 9 years of fast break basketball under Moe) and I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that we weren't going to win a title with that style of play. Not saying Shaw is going to take us to the promise land, but I think a shift in style is at least worth the risk.

[Teens On Acid]

There are, of course, certain undeniable facts. The first is that the notoriously cheap Kroenkes - and it is quite plausible, if not provable that Stan is still involved in money decisions - saved millions on not matching Toronto's offer to Ujiri and millions more by not extending Karl for even two years.

what are you talking about? Masai asked Josh Kroenke not to match even though he was more than willing to. Kroenke own public words, not mine. They also threw more money Iguodala's way than what Golden State did but he turned it down. Ty, JaVale and Gallo are all being paid over 10 million a year. In what world is that cheap?

And extending Karl? To what end? ANOTHER 2 years of 1st round exits? Have you been paying attention the last 9 years? Good to great regular seasons followed by mediocre playoff series after series. Enough is enough. Coach of the year? great. that's fantastic. Where did it get us where it matters most, the playoffs? Nowhere.

I've never been a fan of Karl coaching style, his non-existent adjustments and rotations or his penchant for throwing players under the bus instead of coaching the best out of them. I have nothing against the man personally but as a coach I'm glad he's moved on to...which team was it that hired him? i can't remember.

[corona]

Of course, your speculations are just that, speculations. But it is exactly the same for corona. Except, of course, he wins at least one OMG! for his ridiculous conjecture about religion being the factor which led Iggy to sign with G.S.

all signs point to it. if he was anti-typical religion, like george karl is....do you believe he'd still take a paycut to go play for a roster full of christians with a coach that's a minister....because he likes who jerry west is? you think praying with their team while we were in the playoffs had no bearing on whether he grew with them and liked them enough to sign there?

There are, of course, certain undeniable facts. The first is that the notoriously cheap Kroenkes - and it is quite plausible, if not provable that Stan is still involved in money decisions - saved millions on not matching Toronto's offer to Ujiri and millions more by not extending Karl for even two years.

remember, they're paying 2 coaches this season. it would have been cheaper to let karl play out his contract and then find somebody. i doubt shaw came that cheap either....he certainly had quite a few suitors.
they also offered iguodala more money than the offer he took. how is that cheap? if he didn't take the offer for equal/more money immediately, then it should have been pulled off the table anyways....since at that point it would have been obvious he didn't want to play for the team anymore because of other fundamental reasons. and paying him more wouldn't make him a better teammate or win more games.

The second is that the consensus around the league is that Iggy is a proven near All-Star while Hickson has had one good season - and that is only based upon his gross PPG and RPG - Foye is a proven bench player and Arthur is the same at most.

nobody ever said hickson is an all-star, or randy foye is a legitimate nba starter. holy crap

i'm beginning to think you're simply trolling for as long as possible. ignoring 95% of the reasoning in my posts and going on and on about the same stuff, and exaggerating it more each time.

corona obviously does not think that many WC teams - Clips, Rockets, Spurs and oh yeah, without a doubt, G.S are much improved since he has confidently ruled out - unlike many national commentators - the possibility of the Nugz dropping to lottery status.

didn't the national commentators pencil the lakers in as WCF at worst last offseason because they got dwight howard. tell me again how that worked out?
everyone says the clippers get better every offseason, and then they go lose to a tougher team that plays fundamental basketball.
spurs can't outrun fathertime forever. regardless of the moves made this summer, the players on this team will all be entering their prime years just as tim duncan announces his retirement.
nobody, including you, has convinced me how golden state got significantly better from their 47 wins. they lost very important bench play, leadership, and shooting, and draft picks, and future cap space and got a great star player that had just led the denver nuggets to a super impressive.....first round playoff loss.

While he won't just come right out and say it, he is a true believer in JoshBoy knowing what he is doing, which you and I are not.

trollish.

Only time will tell but one thing is certain for me. As a guy who watches almost every Nugz game, I most definitely prefer watching the last year's Nuggets style of winning play to that of the Grizzlies. While I appreciate good D, I hate watching a steady diet of games in which the winning team struggles to score much more than 90 points.

agree that its fun to watch for most of the season. its tough knowing that it always ends in disappointment and frustration though. having sat through 9 seasons of karl basketball, i'm over fastbreak, risky defense, quick shot basketball and into anything that produces playoff wins.

[ujirifan]

For godsake, corona, your entire post is nothing but deflection and refusal to make a direct response, except for your continued lunatic religious explanation regarding Iggy.

Please show me just ONE - CREDIBLE - link to support what you deludedly refer to as that being the clear cut reason for him picking G.S. OR explain why Iggy's own quotes, for which I provided the link, declaring Jerry West as being the primary reason for picking them somehow is not to be believed.

[corona]

i have.

holy crap. go back and read my response in that other thread. you're re-wording a journalists attempt at misquoting what iguodala said.... you're not quoting iguodala when you say 'primary'

hell....i'll give you the link and quote you just to show that in iguodala's words it says absolutely nothing about jerry west being a primary factor in his decision or even a deciding factor, since that was also journalist created.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1266721&start=0#p36711963

So what was the deciding factor? Why did he sign with the Warriors?

Iguodala says that it was Jerry West, who is currently a consultant with Golden State.

Golden State has been on my radar for a while now,” he told NBATV. “About four or five years ago, I had a conversation with Jerry West when he was still with Memphis, and he just picked my game apart. I didn’t realize that he watched me play…he knew everything about my game.

“I knew every organization that he was a part of had a lot of success, and he changed things around. So when he got on board with Golden State, that raised my eyebrows. That’s the kind of organization…they’re up next, because he’s a part of it and he’s always had success. So they have been on my radar for a few years.”

on radar =/= primary factor

primary adjective
1
coming before all others in importance <the primary concern for many house hunters is the asking price>
Synonyms arch, big, capital, cardinal, central, chief, dominant, first, grand, great, greatest, highest, key, leading, main, master, number one (also No. 1), numero uno, overbearing, overmastering, overriding, paramount, predominant, preeminent, premier, primal, primary, principal, prior, sovereign (also sovran), supreme

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+radar

on radar
on somebody's radar (screen) also on the radar (screen)
among the things being considered by someone

.

fact - they're paying 2 coaches this season. that's expensive, not cheap. cheap is having the coach coach for every cent you paid him for. nba coaching contracts say when you sign a coach for X number of years you have to pay him for those years. you don't get to fire him and not pay him.

fact - denver offered iguodala more money than golden state did.
https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/ ... 6813982723

fact - lakers sucked with dwight howard. his statistical impact on the game isn't close to what it was in '09 because of injuries and lack of heart. widely known/reported.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/standings

fact - clippers keep losing to grizzlies
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/

fact - golden state warriors lost a player that put up 13/3/6 last year and shot 40% from 3 in 30mpg over 79 games with a PER of 16....AND a guy that put up 11/6/1, had the best TS% on the roster (better than steph curry), with a PER of 17.5. (they had the 3rd and 4th best PERs on the roster). carl landry had the best PER of the warriors in the playoffs, and the second best TS% while jarret jack had the 3rd best PER in the playoffs, and the best TS%.

and they replaced him with a guy that just put up 13/5/5 and shot 32% from 3 with a PER of 15.2 (0.2 above league average), a TS% that would rank 10th on the warriors 12-13 roster, and a FT% that would only top their two centers. yes, i know he plays better defense. but they did lose a lot, and their expectations are grand. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1268190

their backup frontcourt players are a career 8/4 journeyman, and a sophomore who put up 2/4 in 14 minutes per game last year....despite getting the experience and opportunity of starting for half the season. and you're complaining about mozgov? lol
their backup backcourt players..... one has career averages of 9/2/2 on 41% shooting and has bounced around between 3 teams in his first 4 seasons. and the other is a sophomore who averaged 4 minutes per game last year.

they're basically banking on harrison barnes and draymond green (two 6'8 forwards) picking up where they left off in the playoffs.....where they posted PERs of 14.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2013.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... dan01.html

fact - tim duncan will be 38 years old by the first week of next years playoffs. and just played more cumulative minutes this past season than he has since the 07-08 season. spurs have historically not done well in the season after a long playoff run.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ati01.html

opinion - manu ginobili plays like he's 38. fact - his PER and stats across the board have been rapidly declining in the last 2 playoffs/seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bma01.html

fact - golden state's roster is seriously religious
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_23067377?source=bb

Many NBA players identify themselves as Christians. But the Warriors feature one of the more devout rosters, and it has fed into their chemistry....

....Of the 14 players on the roster, about 10 are regulars, and that doesn't include Jackson. ...

"Seeing all the guys that they have in chapel, you can tell that they really love Jesus."....

....It's little surprise that Jackson is at the center of the bond. Since the Warriors hired him in June of 2011, the loquacious Brooklyn native and former NBA point guard hasn't been bashful about his calling. Many Sundays he'll fly home to preach to his congregation. He'll give shout-outs to God in postgame interviews and turn halftime speeches into a sermonette....

fact - iguodala said his main reason for going to the warriors was their culture and coaching, both of which are documented as super-religious.
http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2013/07 ... hard-work/

IGUODALA: “Mainly, the coach and the culture, the environment. I feel like they have a good culture there, a lot of great guys, great locker room.

fact - iguodala was praying with the warriors players in the playoffs
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1262916&start=0

fact - iguodala is also seriously religious, and attributes a lot of his success to being a part of religious-oriented teams in the past.
http://www.christianmessenger.in/basket ... -balanced/

It is Iguodala’s faith, learned at an early age from his grandmother, who took him to church, that sustains him and keeps him focused amid the media frenzy.
“Faith is something I heavily lean on to give me that balance. I make sure I stay in chapel and have a good relationship with our chaplain. It keeps me focused,” he adds.....

“When people see us on the court, we want them to see God’s work. We want to be a good representation of what we believe in,” he says. “When you go out there, you’re not just representing your country or the NBA, you’re representing your beliefs. You want to play hard for someone who died for you.”

“That trust factor has helped create a close bond with my teammates who are regulars at chapel. It helps us on the court because we feel like we’re brothers,” he says.

He notes that his relationship with the chaplain at the University of Arizona helped him return to his faith roots, and the NBA transition was made easier by teammates who encouraged him to attend team chapels as well. “I got pretty close with those guys, and I got back on track,” he says. “The last few years have really been good for me.”

fact - iguodala tweeted this minutes after officially signing with the warriors


#religionplayednopart

#sarcasm

#caseclosed

[Teens On Acid]

can i just add,
#lockitup

[scottcarman]

Just a few points to consider:

Deductive reasoning is what separates us from animals. Our ability to put 2 and 2 together to make reasonable assumptions is the basis of cognitive ability. This thread reminds me of Portland fans that insist that LMA has never requested to be traded.

Since when does culture equal christianity? Especially when you relate it to basketball. A player can be religious and still have an opinion about the culture of a team. I believe that Iggy did not believe that the Nuggets wanted to win now. Even the most ardent supporters of the organization are admitting that the Nuggets will take a step back next year. There is this rampant concept that we need to 'develop' our young players at the cost of wins now. It's the reason George Karl was fired. He did not develop Fournier, Hamilton, or McGee enough. GS on the other hand, made a lot of active moves and showed a willingness to do what it takes to win now. If you are approaching 30 years, which organization do you want to play for?

I believe that if JK went to Ujiri and said 'look, we make a great team and we transformed this team through the Melo trade, but we aren't done yet. We are approaching that threshold of being really competitive (57 wins qualifies) and maybe just the right tweaks to the roster can get us to having a legit chance at a championship. If Josh can't pay an extra million to his GM, but is spending close to 70 on the roster that is put together is ludicrous. Can we also expect that JK is not willing to pay any tax whatsoever. Is he even willing to go to the tax line? This is another example of a guy that he did his job not only adequate, but above and beyond, but the team is not willing to reward him. Of course he told JK that he wanted to go Toronto, because JK had already made it clear that he did not think Ujiri's contributions were worth it.

Since when have the Nuggets given GK any kind of roster stability to actually coach and grow the team? How many players are on the roster now, that were still here when Melo was here? It's easy to point to the fact that Karl has not had much success in playoffs, but I don't think most people are truly considering whether he could have reasonably been expected to have much success. I never realized that you could have an awful coach and still win 57 games in the league. oh, and fool all of the media into voting you as the best coach of the year. You can keep all your *facts* but I trust the sports media much more than a bunch of forum trolls that are desperately trying to prove their basketball knowledge. This year we got beat by a team that was getting hot at the right time and our team had a bunch of injuries and were limping into the playoffs. I'm willing to give the team and the coach a pass, based on the regular season success.

I wish we extended Ujiri, Karl, signed Iggy (I think he would be here if Ujiri and Karl were also here). And ran with a team of Lawson, Iggy, Fournier, Chandler, Gallo, Faried, McGee all signed up for several years. We had a ton of pieces which could have been packaged for Love, LMA, Horford. Our pieces are even more of a hodge podge then they were last year. We are spreading out the talent when we need to consolidate. I don't get what the vision of this team is. Are we expecting that Lawson will be the person to step up this year? Will more minutes for McGee be the key to transforming this team into a contender.

We won 57 games with an astoundingly young team that has barely played together. I don't care if Josh had to kiss both GK and Ujiri's ass, as a fan, I wanted to see this team compete for a few years together. I remember the days before Karl. I never felt comfortable that the Nuggets would even make the playoffs, much less have a legit shot at home court advantage. I understand that some fans think the Nuggets are on a treadmill, but this treadmill is way better than the treadmill of late lottery to barely making playoffs.

It sucks, we could have been legit for a while, and now I guess we will find out if we will be or not.

Also, why is the Gallo injury such a big deal. Chandler was hurt for much of last year We had injuries to Lawson, Faried, and Gallo last year as well. Is Chandler really that much worse than Gallo that we should 'expect' a lot less wins. I don't think so. Especially if the team can stay relatively healthy for the first part of the season.

[scottcarman]

What do you think about this article:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1664 ... -is-a-jinx

It seems that Lawson was pretty shocked that Karl was fired. Have you considered that this might be the 'culture' that Iggy is referring to?

[CanNugget]

What do you think about this article:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1664 ... -is-a-jinx

It seems that Lawson was pretty shocked that Karl was fired. Have you considered that this might be the 'culture' that Iggy is referring to?

Are you f**king kidding me? So, because it says that Ty Lawson was shocked; we have a poor culture here? Of course he was surprised, a lot of people were. You are definitely reaching if you think that this means we have a poor team culture and that that's why Iggy left.

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_23 ... ut-nuggets

"Having a GM, a coach, knowing what we're doing going forward takes a lot of the stress off everybody around the organization and the players," Lawson said.

Sounds like Lawson feels just fine about the culture.

"He's very hungry and motivated to get out of the first round and improve every day, so I'm excited."
Lawson speaking about Shaw.

Looks like Lawson, like most us fans, is f**king sick of the first round exits and feels pretty happy with Shaw. If Iguodala left more money and more years to go to GS, something tells me he wanted to go to GS. Not because of our culture but (As Iguodala literally came out and said directly) because of GS's culture. Religion or not, he wanted out.

Corona has directly quoted and answered all of your and Ujirifan's posts, while you guys ignore what he says and just repeat your own ludicrous and exaggerated opinions. God help you Corona, you have a lot more patience than I do.

[corona]

Since when does culture equal christianity?

when all the evidence points to that conclusion.

if you need a refresher on that evidence you can scroll up a couple posts.

It's the reason George Karl was fired. He did not develop Fournier, Hamilton, or McGee enough.

its only part of the reason he was fired.

the other parts include not winning when it matters and being a lame duck coach who's always aired his laundry through the media...not a good combo for the upcoming season.

GS on the other hand, made a lot of active moves and showed a willingness to do what it takes to win now.

by signing jermaine o'neal?

i just told you they let go of 2 key pieces to their success last year and replaced them with a 15 PER player making 12 million who's only been out of the first round once....and the only reason that happened is that derrick rose tore his ACL in game 1. how is that 'a lot of active moves' and a 'willingness to do what it takes to win now'? that looks way more like a lateral move that limits their ability to do actual substantial, real improving moves in future years (particularly when they gave up picks in the process). why isn't GSW being thrown to the fire by you for not sticking with their core players and letting them grow together for a couple years? why'd they panic and give up their flexibility to sign a pseudo-all-star wing player when they had already gotten to the second round with the group they had?

Can we also expect that JK is not willing to pay any tax whatsoever. Is he even willing to go to the tax line?

the iverson years didn't prove they were willing to spend to try to give themselves a chance? even into the billups era they were paying the luxury tax. and now that the tax is way more severe than it was before....it would be ludicrous to set yourself up to pay it, particularly as a small market team without one all-star player.

Since when have the Nuggets given GK any kind of roster stability to actually coach and grow the team?

how many years of the same exact group do you want? you could play anthony carter 26mpg together with any group for the next 20 years and never come close to winning a title. sorry.
every roster in the league is always in a state of change, be it with trades, free agent signings or injuries. that's part of the challenge of coaching, particularly when you're not gifted tim duncan or michael jordan as a franchise. if you're not cut out for dealing with that and teaching and adapting, then you're not cut out for nba coaching. or coaching on any level.

i mean if karl had some complex offensive system that required perfect timing, symmetry, and precise knowledge of where everyone else on the court is at all times.....and a defensive system that took a year to learn the ins-and-outs of to get the rotations perfect, you might have a bit of a point. but even karl would admit he doesn't have those things. heck, chauncey billups said straight up that they barely had any plays and not even any legit inbound plays when he arrived in denver.

his offense is play fast and run, and penetrate and kick in the halfcourt sets. and his defense is intense pressure, switching and trapping to try to create havoc. so by keeping the same 5+ guys together for 3 years with the same verbiage from karl about playing fast and free....they'll eventually develop some innate ability to play off one another. but doesn't that just speak to how inept karl really is at todays game? he's not teaching them or giving them the room to operate through his schemes and coaching to be the best players/team they can be.....they're (hopefully after a 3 year experiment) just figuring it out for themselves.

but I don't think most people are truly considering whether he could have reasonably been expected to have much success. I never realized that you could have an awful coach and still win 57 games in the league. oh, and fool all of the media into voting you as the best coach of the year. You can keep all your *facts* but I trust the sports media much more than a bunch of forum trolls that are desperately trying to prove their basketball knowledge.

http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2012/stor ... n-champion
hollinger, chad ford, david thorpe and others all predicted denver would win the northwest division over the thunder last year. i think hollinger may have predicted we'd win the west or win 59 games or something.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-o ... redictions
these guys at CBS predicted denver between 50 and 57 wins.

people make it out like 57 wins was totally unexpected and we completely overachieved. not really. it was expected that the nuggets would be a pretty legit mid-playoff team before the start of the season. they got off to a slow start because of the tough road heavy schedule and everyone counted them out. and then when the schedule caught up with them and they started winning.....the media became amazed by how great they were, and the hype bus rolled in karl's favor. yea, they probably won ~4 more games than the average media member predicted pre-season....but it's not like they overachieved from 45 wins to 57 like it's made out to be.

I'm willing to give the team and the coach a pass, based on the regular season success.

how many passes, with how many different styles of rosters are you willing to give? 3? 5? 9?

We had a ton of pieces which could have been packaged for Love, LMA, Horford. Our pieces are even more of a hodge podge then they were last year.

so you're saying that kosta koufos and/or andre iguodala would have been the key piece in getting LMA, Love or Horford? and because they're gone, that potential option is no longer a possibility?

do you really think franchises typically trade their young all-star PFs for aging wing players with new 52 million+ contracts and a backup center?

We won 57 games with an astoundingly young team that has barely played together.

i don't get it.....
they're now still young, and get to play together MORE. isn't that exactly what you want?

[scottcarman]

I want the best team possible. I like making the playoffs every year.

I think that George Karl, Ujiri, and bringing Iggy/Koufos back is a much better team than Shaw/Arthur/Foye.

I can easily see the Nuggets being very close to a trade, if they just had a good backup center, or if a particular player like Iggy fits their needs. I don't believe in throwing away assets.

You seem desperate to prove a point. But your proof is flimsy.

Case in point:

Iggy is a christian, Iggy likes GS Warriors culture does not equal Christianity equals the warriors culture. You seriously want me to believe that he turned down millions because he wants to go to church with Mark Jackson? That is crazy.

I find that most of your evidence or facts are when you find a few obscure people that made a stretch prediction on the nuggets. What about all the off season rankings for this year? Why does just about every sports columnist rank the Nuggets as being in the bottom half? Come up with all of the excuses that you want, but your arguing against people that have a lot more time to analyze the NBA than I do.

The Nuggets have NEVER won 57 games in a season, and they have NEVER won as many consecutive games, they have NEVER won as many consecutive home games. In the entire franchise history!!! And they are basically the youngest team in the NBA. What does it take for you to give them a chance? There is only one player on the team that is still around from the Melo days (Lawson). Can you just give me a few years to give them a chance before you throw your hands in the air and say, this team just can't win?

[scottcarman]

And it seems like most people predicted the Nuggets to win around 51 games. And Yes, I think the difference between 57 and 51 is pretty huge in the NBA. It's usually the difference between home court advantage or not.

[RRFB]

What do the 'experts' predictions have to do with anything? From what I can remember, every single year they say the same thing about the Nuggets -- that we're a borderline playoff team that will win somewhere in the mid-40s and finish as a 7th or 8th seed at the best. They've said it every year post-Melo, they said it when we traded for Iverson and I specifically remember the 'experts' saying we still wouldn't make the playoffs after trading for Billups. Other than Hollinger and his 59 win prediction (which everyone else thought was ridiculous), last year was no different. Even though we continuously fail miserably in the playoffs, we still exceed the 'experts' regular season predictions every single year. Just because they consistently underestimate us, doesn't mean we overachieved.

I said it at the end of the season and I still believe it, 57 wins is no joke. That doesn't happen by mistake or as a fluke and it definitely didn't happen because George Karl was somehow able to get more out of this group than anyone else ever will. We're still talented as hell and young as hell. Sure it would have been nice to keep Iguodala but it's not like he had a great season. His deficiencies on the offensive end caused some serious problems and he clearly didn't transform the defensive culture. I'm perfectly fine with the flexibility we have now rather than having him locked in as the highest paid player on the roster for the next five years.

I've tried to stay out of these threads because I'm really not even sure what scottcarman and ujirifan are trying to argue at this point. All I see is a bunch of crying and complaining without any acknowledgment of the points anyone else is making. Karl, Ujiri and Iguodala are gone, get the **** over it. The majority of us are happy with the moves Kroenke & Co. have made since they left and are happy with the potential of this team and the direction they are heading.

[corona]

Case in point:

Iggy is a christian, Iggy likes GS Warriors culture does not equal Christianity equals the warriors culture. You seriously want me to believe that he turned down millions because he wants to go to church with Mark Jackson? That is crazy.

people KILL people every day over religion and have for the entirety of civilized human existence.

believing he'd turn down a couple million for religious reasons is far more plausible than turning down a couple million for the reason of potentially wanting to win more (although whether that will happen is seriously debatable)

Why does just about every sports columnist rank the Nuggets as being in the bottom half? Come up with all of the excuses that you want, but your arguing against people that have a lot more time to analyze the NBA than I do.

they're all looking at it from an outsiders perspective and have karl pegged as a big reason for the teams success because we don't have an all-star and gallo/lawson/mcgee are role players and they think we overachieved a bit last season.
they don't consider his shortcomings as a coach or that the team could play better given better direction....because they basically won 57 games with almost no halfcourt offense, terrible shooting and gaping defensive issues.

it's also the nature of nba writing to overrate significant moves that are made....just because they were made. it's something to write about and get hits in the slow offseason months.
ie. howard vaulting lakers to title status last offseason. well....now he's vaulted houston to championship material, despite their fundamental flaws as a team.
golden state made a splash with their trade to get rid of baggage and sign iggy to 48 million. it MUST be good. omg their starting unit is so good! they're not looking any deeper than that.
spurs did great last year, so they're destined to be just as good.

The Nuggets have NEVER won 57 games in a season, and they have NEVER won as many consecutive games, they have NEVER won as many consecutive home games. In the entire franchise history!!! And they are basically the youngest team in the NBA. What does it take for you to give them a chance?

i am. i'm giving the young guys more of a chance than you are.
you think a 29 year old 15 PER player and a 60 year old coach who's been a career playoff failure are the only things that kept the team together last season, and without them we'll fall into mediocrity.

i think we're in a great position to watch a fun, young, athletic team with a lot of heart and an up and coming coach grow together and exceed regular season expectations once again, and hopefully transfer that growth and knowledge into playoff wins.

There is only one player on the team that is still around from the Melo days (Lawson). Can you just give me a few years to give them a chance before you throw your hands in the air and say, this team just can't win?

you're the one predicting failure. not me.