payitforward wrote:Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:One strategy I would like to see used is to trade for a diamond in the rough....
Ed Davis, Brandan Wright, Arnett Moutrie. and Greg Smith are diamonds that I like.
I would love for the Wizards to trade for any of those four players. ....
That's an outstanding list, CCJ. And this is the way to think about building a team. I wish you would start a "Diamonds in the Rough" thread -- I'd do it but it's your idea so....
I loved Smith from the moment I saw his workout videos before the 2012 draft. He's enormous, moves his feet well, has huge, soft hands and to my mind was an absolute lock to be a good NBA player.
Of course, if Darryl Morey were running the team, we would have him w/o needing to make a trade. Because DM is running the Rockets we won't be able to trade for him. I don't think we have a chance at Brandan Wright either; didn't he just re-sign w/ the Mavs? No particular reason to think Moultrie is available -- I think the Sixers love him.
Best bet might be Ed Davis. But... Memphis seems to know what it's doing, so whoever would they find on our team to make the trade worthwhile?
Diamonds in the rough
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Diamonds in the rough
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Diamonds in the rough
The conversation below is something pif thought worthy of its own thread.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
It's better to get value at a low price by taking a leap of faith on a lesser-renowned talent than it is to overpay for a well-known player, who is generally going to be coming in a contract year. Very similar to drafting well, which means finding a stud where others usually find duds, the art of trading well can yield a good player.
Judging by Nikola Vucevic and Tobias Harris, it's clear to me that the Orlando Magic know a diamond-in-the-rough when they can acquire one.
Darryl Morey knows talent.
Conversely, you have to consider the teams who traded away Vucevic and Harris. If I were the Wizards I'd go all in in trading for John Henson. I would go get Thaddeus Young and/or Arnett Moutrie in trade if possible.
I suspect organizations tend to either give or receive diamonds in the rough. The Wizards clearly draft for other teams' profit, it seems. Most Wizards-drafted players are on another roster by the time they contribute well.
This thread would be aimed to reversing that trend.
Judging by Nikola Vucevic and Tobias Harris, it's clear to me that the Orlando Magic know a diamond-in-the-rough when they can acquire one.
Darryl Morey knows talent.
Conversely, you have to consider the teams who traded away Vucevic and Harris. If I were the Wizards I'd go all in in trading for John Henson. I would go get Thaddeus Young and/or Arnett Moutrie in trade if possible.
I suspect organizations tend to either give or receive diamonds in the rough. The Wizards clearly draft for other teams' profit, it seems. Most Wizards-drafted players are on another roster by the time they contribute well.
This thread would be aimed to reversing that trend.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
I'm going with Martel Webster.
I think he is going to be really good
So what makes this thread different then the draft thread were these players got listed ?
Or the FA thread were we are looking to add players ?
Or the trade thread where we are doing the same.
Going to be a long list of players if we are talking about combining all those names into one list.
As for it always being better to swing for a diamond in the rough. I don't think that is always true. Sometimes you want to add vet playoff success level players. There are only so many positions on a team so there is room for a DITR or two. Just depend on what the team needs the most.
I guess our DITR player this year was Maynor. Temple from last year.
Our older DITRs is Kevin S and Booker.
So were do you draw the line with a DITR ?
None first round pick ?
Player that isn't starting after 2 years ?
I think he is going to be really good

So what makes this thread different then the draft thread were these players got listed ?
Or the FA thread were we are looking to add players ?
Or the trade thread where we are doing the same.
Going to be a long list of players if we are talking about combining all those names into one list.
As for it always being better to swing for a diamond in the rough. I don't think that is always true. Sometimes you want to add vet playoff success level players. There are only so many positions on a team so there is room for a DITR or two. Just depend on what the team needs the most.
I guess our DITR player this year was Maynor. Temple from last year.
Our older DITRs is Kevin S and Booker.
So were do you draw the line with a DITR ?
None first round pick ?
Player that isn't starting after 2 years ?
Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
It's a great topic and something the Wizards should have been doing for years. Last year, they sort of did it with Webster, but didn't execute as well as they could have because they didn't give him a 2nd year team option in his contract and ended up paying at least full value (I think over market value) for him with his re-signing.
For next season, I'm not sure they should be looking for a diamond in the rough other than minimum salary players, because if they're going to try to have cap room for a max player next offseason, they can't afford to use up more cap room.
Orlando is a team that seems to have a bunch of potential breakout players. I particularly like Nicholson, and I'm intrigued by Kyle O'Quinn.
Thad Young is someone who I'd say does not fit the definition, because he's well into a long-term contract that pays him quite a lot of money
For next season, I'm not sure they should be looking for a diamond in the rough other than minimum salary players, because if they're going to try to have cap room for a max player next offseason, they can't afford to use up more cap room.
Orlando is a team that seems to have a bunch of potential breakout players. I particularly like Nicholson, and I'm intrigued by Kyle O'Quinn.
Thad Young is someone who I'd say does not fit the definition, because he's well into a long-term contract that pays him quite a lot of money
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Ruzious wrote:It's a great topic and something the Wizards should have been doing for years. Last year, they sort of did it with Webster, but didn't execute as well as they could have because they didn't give him a 2nd year team option in his contract and ended up paying at least full value (I think over market value) for him with his re-signing.
For next season, I'm not sure they should be looking for a diamond in the rough other than minimum salary players, because if they're going to try to have cap room for a max player next offseason, they can't afford to use up more cap room.
Orlando is a team that seems to have a bunch of potential breakout players. I particularly like Nicholson, and I'm intrigued by Kyle O'Quinn.
Thad Young is someone who I'd say does not fit the definition, because he's well into a long-term contract that pays him quite a lot of money
I think I read Webster wasn't singing a second year and that he had other offers.
Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Man, I've been waiting for you to start this thread. 
A few years ago, I created the "Diamond" ratings, which compared a player's per minute productivity to his per game productivity. The idea being to start a research list of players whose overall performance might warrant increased playing time, and/or to identify players whose performance might be undervalued by their teams.
The list (by position) is below with these cutoffs -- 500-1999 total minutes, minimum PPA of 75, maximum age is 26, maximum minutes per game is 28.
Center
Power Forward
Small Forward
Shooting Guard
Point Guard
More bigs qualify than SFs and guards because coaches tend to play bigs fewer minutes.
Other "diamond" candidates at center: Larry Sanders, Enes Kanter, Greg Smith, Kyle O'Quinn
At PF -- Dejuan Blair, Trevor Booker, Patrick Patterson, Derrick Favors
At PG -- Reggie Jackson, Iman Shumpert, A.J. Price

A few years ago, I created the "Diamond" ratings, which compared a player's per minute productivity to his per game productivity. The idea being to start a research list of players whose overall performance might warrant increased playing time, and/or to identify players whose performance might be undervalued by their teams.
The list (by position) is below with these cutoffs -- 500-1999 total minutes, minimum PPA of 75, maximum age is 26, maximum minutes per game is 28.
Center
- Brandan Wright
- Andre Drummond
- Kostas Koufos
Power Forward
- Arnett Moultrie
- John Henson
- Ed Davis
Small Forward
- DeMarre Carroll
- Omri Casspi
- C.J. Miles
Shooting Guard
- Marcus Thornton
- Wayne Ellington
- Ramon Sessions
Point Guard
- Eric Bledsoe
- Patrick Beverly
- Patrick Mills
More bigs qualify than SFs and guards because coaches tend to play bigs fewer minutes.
Other "diamond" candidates at center: Larry Sanders, Enes Kanter, Greg Smith, Kyle O'Quinn
At PF -- Dejuan Blair, Trevor Booker, Patrick Patterson, Derrick Favors
At PG -- Reggie Jackson, Iman Shumpert, A.J. Price
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Ruzious, did you see the name Ramon Sessions?


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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Nivek, I was aware of your diamond ratings. Definitely, you could have been the one to start this thread. The variables you use to generate your diamond ratings almost invariably yield names similar to my favorite underrated players. Kev, this is your thread, too.
How do you rate Josh Akognon?
On players who might not have emerged, how do you now feel about Wesley Johnson, Will Bartlett, and Jae Crowder?
It is ENCOURAGING to see AJ Price and Trevor Booker on the list. I think Blair's a cut above Booker, but I do like Booker. I would rather have Price back and Blair than Maynor and no Blair. Seems to me there had to be a trade the Spurs would have taken for D J Blair.
How do you rate Josh Akognon?
On players who might not have emerged, how do you now feel about Wesley Johnson, Will Bartlett, and Jae Crowder?
It is ENCOURAGING to see AJ Price and Trevor Booker on the list. I think Blair's a cut above Booker, but I do like Booker. I would rather have Price back and Blair than Maynor and no Blair. Seems to me there had to be a trade the Spurs would have taken for D J Blair.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Ruzious, did you see the name Ramon Sessions?
Yea at shooting guard...that's because he can't run a team if his life depended on it.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
I'd bet money that Roddy Beaubois pops back up in the league and impresses again. Injuries have kept him back. But, he's smart and tough.
I'd add Bazemore to the list as well. Defensively that kid is special.
I'd also watch Kabongo and Gobert.
I'd add Bazemore to the list as well. Defensively that kid is special.
I'd also watch Kabongo and Gobert.
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TGW wrote:Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Ruzious, did you see the name Ramon Sessions?
Yea at shooting guard...that's because he can't run a team if his life depended on it.
Notice how you haven't read a single post predicting greatness for the Charlotte Bobcats from me this season.

Sessions is a really good scoring point who doesn't play great defense. Ruz is right about that. Yet, at the same time the guy is really good in up tempo games. LR, some how, Sessions has had an over 20-assist game. Yet, he's not a traditional playmaker. Go figure.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
barelyawake wrote:I'd bet money that Roddy Beaubois pops back up in the league and impresses again. Injuries have kept him back. But, he's smart and tough.
I'd add Bazemore to the list as well. Defensively that kid is special.
I'd also watch Kabongo and Gobert.
Beaubois is a great prospect. I don't care what the guy did the last couple seasons in Dallas. I've seen him at his best.
Bazemore looked like the best player in SL, Oladipo included. (Yes, so did Josh Selby last season.)
Kabongo and Dennis Shroeder might be better than Trey Burke. I also think BJ Young has quite a bit of talent.
Gobert and Noguiera or Alex Len and Steven Adams? This draft class will usher back the era of dominant big men.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Is Jan Vesely not on this list?
Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
A couple observation about this draft I made before the draft: Expect underrated 7 footers and underrated white players.
I knew Olynyk was underrated. I expect Zeller will ge an all star, stud player. Plumlee is a solid rebounder who will emerge better from playing with talented players in Brooklyn.
The other place to expect diamonds from the 2013 draft: PG
There's no way I considered Trey Burke as sublimely talented. Before this draft in my mind the question was which PG was better than Burke. Really, how many diamond PGs are there? Ray McCallum didn't shoot very well for the Kings team but he's good in a lot of areas.
I am guardedly optimistic about Nate Wolters. I think he would have been a much better choice than Glen Rice Jr., but Rice Jr will have a say.
I knew Olynyk was underrated. I expect Zeller will ge an all star, stud player. Plumlee is a solid rebounder who will emerge better from playing with talented players in Brooklyn.
The other place to expect diamonds from the 2013 draft: PG
There's no way I considered Trey Burke as sublimely talented. Before this draft in my mind the question was which PG was better than Burke. Really, how many diamond PGs are there? Ray McCallum didn't shoot very well for the Kings team but he's good in a lot of areas.
I am guardedly optimistic about Nate Wolters. I think he would have been a much better choice than Glen Rice Jr., but Rice Jr will have a say.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
AFM wrote:Is Jan Vesely not on this list?
Cubic Zirconium thread perhaps? Looks like diamond...

That was mean-spirited. I apologize.
Jan's shot DOES look like Dirk's now. IF THEY LET THE KID PLAY SOME SF HE WILL NOT DISAPPOINT. I am happy with the work he is putting in. I fully believe will see the best Jan Vesely this season, JV is going to be a lot better and a good role player if they don't insist on making him a banger. Randy's probably not the coach for Jan, however. I like Wittman but those two don't get along.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
hands11 wrote:I'm going with Martel Webster.
I think he is going to be really good
So what makes this thread different then the draft thread were these players got listed ?
I guess our DITR player this year was Maynor. Temple from last year.
Our older DITRs is Kevin S and Booker.
So were do you draw the line with a DITR ?
None first round pick ?
Player that isn't starting after 2 years ?
First off, this isn't about players on the Wizards roster (Webster). 2dly, it's not about players who haven't performed in the "well above average" category (Maynor, Seraphin, Temple).
It's about guys on other teams who are high producers at low $$$. Those are diamonds in the rough. We started w/ a list that included Greg Smith -- a guy who has put up very good numbers despite not being drafted. For example, he's way way way above Kevin Seraphin, who was taken in Round 1.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:A couple observation about this draft I made before the draft: Expect underrated 7 footers and underrated white players.
I knew Olynyk was underrated. I expect Zeller will ge an all star, stud player. Plumlee is a solid rebounder who will emerge better from playing with talented players in Brooklyn.
The other place to expect diamonds from the 2013 draft: PG
There's no way I considered Trey Burke as sublimely talented. Before this draft in my mind the question was which PG was better than Burke. Really, how many diamond PGs are there? Ray McCallum didn't shoot very well for the Kings team but he's good in a lot of areas.
I am guardedly optimistic about Nate Wolters. I think he would have been a much better choice than Glen Rice Jr., but Rice Jr will have a say.
While you may be right about some or most of these guys, and it seems clear that some of them were underrated in the draft (Wolters most of all IMO), I don't think newly-drafted guys should be put in the "diamonds in the rough" category. They are unknowns.
Again, my classic example of a diamond in the rough is Greg Smith -- or, a few years ago, a guy like Amir Johnson would have qualified.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Jordan Williams is one of the guys I think is a DitR. Drafted #36 in 2011, had quite a good rookie season w/ the Nets. Went to Atlanta in (I think) as a throw-in part of the Joe Johnson trade. Didn't flourish there and is now out of the league it seems.
I questioned him coming out of college, but he slimmed down and showed that he has game. A DitR, IMO.
I questioned him coming out of college, but he slimmed down and showed that he has game. A DitR, IMO.
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Ruzious, did you see the name Ramon Sessions?
Yup, it just shows to go that Kev isn't perfect.

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Re: Diamonds in the rough
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Re: Diamonds in the rough
payitforward wrote:Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:A couple observation about this draft I made before the draft: Expect underrated 7 footers and underrated white players.
I knew Olynyk was underrated. I expect Zeller will ge an all star, stud player. Plumlee is a solid rebounder who will emerge better from playing with talented players in Brooklyn.
The other place to expect diamonds from the 2013 draft: PG
There's no way I considered Trey Burke as sublimely talented. Before this draft in my mind the question was which PG was better than Burke. Really, how many diamond PGs are there? Ray McCallum didn't shoot very well for the Kings team but he's good in a lot of areas.
I am guardedly optimistic about Nate Wolters. I think he would have been a much better choice than Glen Rice Jr., but Rice Jr will have a say.
While you may be right about some or most of these guys, and it seems clear that some of them were underrated in the draft (Wolters most of all IMO), I don't think newly-drafted guys should be put in the "diamonds in the rough" category. They are unknowns.
Again, my classic example of a diamond in the rough is Greg Smith -- or, a few years ago, a guy like Amir Johnson would have qualified.
Okay. That makes sense, pif.
My projection of draft positions players vs consensus mock ratings is not about diamonds in the rough. Getting value picks is what I mentioned in the second post above. It's another way to accumulate talent. That is different from trading for guys like Greg Smith.
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