Clutchness in elimination games..stats of Jordan, Kobe..

[mysticbb]

Dirk in Elimination Games
Total Games: 19

You missed two games. In 2001 the Mavericks were down 0-2 against the Jazz, they faced elimination 3 times.

Gm3: 33 pts, 10 trb, 2 ast, 1 blk, 2 tov, 9/19 fg, 2/7 3p, 13/14 ft and W
Gm4: 33 pts, 8 trb, 2 ast, 0 tov, 10/19 fg, 5/10 3p, 8/9 ft and W

11 wins, 10 losses in 21 games with: 28.9 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.8 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.1 bpg, 1.8 tpg, 48.5 fg%, 40.8 3p%, 90.8 ft%

[Mujaki]

Man, Dirk's such a monster.

[TruSkool]

James all the way...im surprised kobe's stats were that low

[E-Balla]

Post 2001 (when Kobe became Kobe) he averaged 24.9/6.1/3.4 on 51 TS (41.0 FG%) in elimination games.

[microfib4thewin]

Shaq from 1994-2006:

1994 Indiana - 9-17, 5-10, 23/14/2
1995 Game 7 Indiana - 11-15, 3-11, 25/11/2
1995 Houston - 11-19, 3-8, 25/12/3
1996 Atlanta - 11-14, 5-15, 27/15/4
1996 Chicago - 11/13, 6-9, 28/9/3
1997 Utah - 9-17, 5-9, 23/13/5
1998 Utah - 14-24, 10-18, 38/7/1
1999 San Antonio - 12-23, 12-23, 36/14/0
2000 Sacramento - 15-24, 2-7, 32/18/4
2000 Portland - 5-9, 8-12, 18/9/5
2002 Game 6 Sacramento - 14-25, 13-17, 41/17/1
2002 Game 7 Sacramento - 12-25, 11-15, 35/13/2
2003 San Antonio - 13-21, 5-10, 31/10/3
2004 Detroit - 7-13, 6-16, 20/8/1
2005 Detroit - 12-19, 3-6, 27/9/1

Average: 28.6/12/2.4/56.8% TS/55% FT

[Mamba Venom]

LeBron is king of stats. If he wins 5 more titles even with Wade and Bosh he will go down as GOAT.

[triple_threat]

Kobe is overrated lol. Duncan, Shaq, Lebron are all easily > Kobe.

[Rasho_libre]

Post 2001 (when Kobe became Kobe) he averaged 24.9/6.1/3.4 on 51 TS (41.0 FG%) in elimination games.

Those still suck

[HotRocks34]

If I didn't know any better, my guess would be that the OP is a LeBron/Heat fan who stealthily created a thread about the subject of elimination game stats and kind of threw the scent off the trail (sort of buried the lede) by mentioning Jordan and Kobe in the title, whereas the numbers end up heavily pumping-up LeBron (as well as a few others).

What this thread does do is paint a picture of reality with FACTS rather than repeated and unsupported perceptions.

I actually thought you did a good job of accomplishing what seemed to be your goal.

There's two ways to get the point across about these stats, at least as regards LeBron. The first way is to make a thread along the lines of "LEBRON GREATEST ELIMINATION GAME STATS IN DA WORLD. YEAH!!!!" The second way is more subtle, kind of lead the people in and let them make their own conclusions. That seems to be more of what you did, and I think that's a better way to do it.

Good job.

***

Someone asked "how do you pump up stats?" You don't necessarily pump up stats. What you do is you "frame" stats, which means you cherry pick stats. So, if you like one guy and want to make him look better than the other guy, you choose the set of stats that favor "your" guy rather than the set of stats that favor the "other" guy.

For example, if you like Kobe you may talk about rings. If you like LeBron you might talk about PER or elimination game stats.

That's what I meant, although I didn't say it clearly.

[DanTown8587]

Sometimes stats don't paint an entire picture. The best example of this would be the famous LBJ triple double he got his final game in Cleveland. The stats will paint the picture as saying James played ok, but anyone who watched that game would argue that James was that good.

I'm not going to say that guy X is better or worse on the whole than his stats, but to simply put up stats for one KIND of game and then say "wow, look how good X is" is hilarious to me. Should it be held against Jordan that he played all of two elimination games in six NBA finals runs?

[OhMyBosh]

It's a bit of a travesty how McGrady is regarded so poorly as being a choker, yet he has some of the best production of all-time. Once I took off the hater glasses from Toronto, T-Mac was a damn good player and deserved all the praise he did when he was in his prime.

[DanTown8587]

I don't get why people who defend their star players go through so much time to do it. The people who think Kobe's better than LeBron will not be swayed by facts. At this point, who is the better player is simply an ideological choice and trying to sway that is near impossible.

[semi-sentient]

James all the way...im surprised kobe's stats were that low

No context is being applied whatsoever.

Take Game 7 against the Rockets in 2009 as an example. The game was over by the half as the Lakers were featuring Gasol and Bynum in the post because they were having their way with the Rockets bigs. There was zero reason for Kobe to be aggressive and look for his shot. The same is more or less true when the Lakers took out the Nuggets in Game 7 in 2012. Yet another example would be Game 5 against the Kings in 2000. The Lakers were up by 25 points heading into the 4th, so again there was no real reason for him to force the issue and additional scoring wasn't needed since Shaq was dominating coupled with the Kings being smothered defensively. They're backcourt produced 11 points on 3-12 shooting with a whopping 2 assists. They're season average was 23.1 pts and 9.0 ast, but you'll never hear anyone giving Kobe credit for his part in that. It's all about the scoring. Sometimes playing within the flow of the game equates to less than impressive box score stats, but it doesn't mean a player performed poorly.

Having said that, Kobe has had some poor shooting performances in closeout games, to be sure, but hardly any of them were actually close so it doesn't really matter. During his prime in games that were reasonably close (within 10 points in the 4th quarter) he's played pretty well overall:

5g, 28.6 pts (.489 ts%), 10.2 reb, 4.4 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 2.6 tov

The only real issue is his scoring efficiency, but it's not as big a deal as people would have you believe. If he hit 1 additional shot per game then his TS% would jump to .540, which is well above league average for the years that the sample is taken from (2000, 2002, 2007, 2010). His rebounding shoots through the roof and while he's not racking up assists he's also not turning the ball over much. So yeah, bottom line is that stats are misleading when context is ignored, and it typically is because most people don't have the time to properly research every single game.

[HeatRing2012]

this whole kobe-issue in each and every thread gets tiresome

what I've learned (and already assumed) from this thread is that Lebron and Dirk are the kings of elimination games over the past 15 years.

whenever someone askes me which player I want to have on my team to close it out, my vote goes to either of the two.

[microfib4thewin]

Sometimes stats don't paint an entire picture. The best example of this would be the famous LBJ triple double he got his final game in Cleveland. The stats will paint the picture as saying James played ok, but anyone who watched that game would argue that James was that good.

Lebron's eFG that game was 42%. That was definitely not a game where every stats favor him.

No context is being applied whatsoever.

What context do you need for a sample size of 19 games that spans over 16 years? Even if you only count the games from 01-10 he still averaged a paltry 25/7/3.5 on 50% TS. Kobe's dropoff in games where his back is against the wall is something that we don't see from any other all time greats. I don't know why some people can't assume that Kobe is simply terrible when he's at the risk of being put in a negative light. If one has a detailed explanation on how Kobe playing bad in those 19 games isn't his fault I would love to hear it.

[Rasho_libre]

Sometimes stats don't paint an entire picture. The best example of this would be the famous LBJ triple double he got his final game in Cleveland. The stats will paint the picture as saying James played ok, but anyone who watched that game would argue that James was that good.

Lebron's eFG that game was 42%. That was definitely not a game where every stats favor him.

No context is being applied whatsoever.

What context do you need for a sample size of 19 games that spans over 16 years? Even if you only count the games from 01-10 he still averaged a paltry 25/7/3.5 on 50% TS. Kobe's dropoff in games where his back is against the wall is something that we don't see from any other all time greats. I don't know why some people can't assume that Kobe is simply terrible when he's at the risk of being put in a negative light. If one has a detailed explanation on how Kobe playing bad in those 19 games isn't his fault I would love to hear it.

As I've stated a million times. No stat, stats, a group of stats, or visual proof can paint the same picture his fans tell us.

[Zubby]

TMac was beast

[LakerLegend]

Take out Kobe's stats from his first 3 years.

[LakerLegend]

Just noticed...


00’ G7 vs. POR – 25 PTS, 11 RBS, 7 AST, 0 STL, 4 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/19 FG, 1/4 3P, 6/12 FT

The Lakers were up 3-1 in that series so there should be 3 elimination games from that series alone.....suspect.

[LakerLegend]

Don't try to act like a valedictorian when you aren't doing your homework..part'na