The Tank Debate Thread

[Edwardo]

Me personally.....I'd like to see the Raptors make the playoffs this year instead of losing for a sixth consectutive year. Hopefully Rudy Gay has an elite season enough to trade him for Wiggins - whether it be trading Gay w/ or w/o bait for the #1 pick or WIggins directly.

Wishful thinking, But imagine that!!!

Anyhow, you are more likely looking at offering JV just took get the team with the first overall pick talking, and that's not to mention the +++ that would have to be added AND if the team with 1st overall already has a young stud SF, AND if Wiggins has a mediocre or bad year and his stock drops.

These things would alll have to be checked off and still it'd not even be 50-50 for the other team to pull the trigger.

[Edwardo]

I was thinking (and I'm sure it has been broached previously as I haven't read the whole thread)...

If Wiggins were not in this upcoming draft, would folks still be as gung-ho about tanking..
I'm sure there will be the crowd that will say the draft is still loaded, others I'm sure are in it just for the unique opportunity to get local star Wiggins (I think many of this crowd won't admit this openly for fear of being labeled a Canadian homer).

With that said, what if the idea of management is to go forth ignoring that Wiggins is even in the draft and start a Miami Heat sort of approach where all future decisions are made with only one thing in mind... the year when Wiggins is a free agent much the same way Miami snared Lebron from Cleveland. Obviously, this would involve securing cap room for that summer and handing out contracts and trading for players accordingly. This also allows the Raptors to more acutely save face with the average paying fan and make a push and start to build some success here... so that it will be more enticing to Wiggins, other stars..

Of course, there is the chance Wiggins gets drafted by a Boston or Philadelphia, falls in love with his situation, obtains early success and becomes an Iverson to Philly or a Pierce to Boston, and the rest is history..

[Reg00]

Again, I'll just put this out there:

Who do you see us beating out of Miami, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana, or New York?
Those will, in all likelihood, be the top 5 teams in the East, which means we're guaranteed to face one of them in the first round of the playoffs, if we make it that far.

So, if we don't have a chance to beat any of them, what are we doing?

If we don't see our current roster as the one we want for the foreseeable future, what are we doing?

Are we really putting that much stock into the value of just making the playoffs, especially when two-fifths of our starting line-up could be gone at the end of the year?

Outside of Indiana and Chicago, the teams have their expiry date coming up. Likely within the next two-three years. About the same time Val hits his stride.

And also, I could see this Raptors roster playing at their peak beating a Knicks team or even the Pacers team. And who knows what Rose will look like, if his injury is truly behind them.

And additionally, if its about teams not being able to match up well with the Heat? Is that like, 97% of the league right now? So is the entire NBA going into Tank mode then? Where are all these guys gonna play then?

[Hot Water]

Outside of Indiana and Chicago, the teams have their expiry date coming up. Likely within the next two-three years. About the same time Val hits his stride.

And also, I could see this Raptors roster playing at their peak beating a Knicks team or even the Pacers team. And who knows what Rose will look like, if his injury is truly behind them.

And additionally, if its about teams not being able to match up well with the Heat? Is that like, 97% of the league right now? So is the entire NBA going into Tank mode then? Where are all these guys gonna play then?

If the window to compete in the East will be in 2-3 seasons then why don't we try to add some top shelf talent alongside JV during the interim period so their primes actually line up?

[sanity]

Outside of Indiana and Chicago, the teams have their expiry date coming up. Likely within the next two-three years. About the same time Val hits his stride.

And also, I could see this Raptors roster playing at their peak beating a Knicks team or even the Pacers team. And who knows what Rose will look like, if his injury is truly behind them.

And additionally, if its about teams not being able to match up well with the Heat? Is that like, 97% of the league right now? So is the entire NBA going into Tank mode then? Where are all these guys gonna play then?

If the window to compete in the East will be in 2-3 seasons then why don't we try to add some top shelf talent alongside JV during the interim period so their primes actually line up?

Hit the nail on the head as far as why this team should be focused on the upcoming draft than pretending to be a bottom seed playoffs team

[Hot Water]

Outside of Indiana and Chicago, the teams have their expiry date coming up. Likely within the next two-three years. About the same time Val hits his stride.

And also, I could see this Raptors roster playing at their peak beating a Knicks team or even the Pacers team. And who knows what Rose will look like, if his injury is truly behind them.

And additionally, if its about teams not being able to match up well with the Heat? Is that like, 97% of the league right now? So is the entire NBA going into Tank mode then? Where are all these guys gonna play then?

If the window to compete in the East will be in 2-3 seasons then why don't we try to add some top shelf talent alongside JV during the interim period so their primes actually line up?

Hit the nail on the head as far as why this team should be focused on the upcoming draft than pretending to be a bottom seed playoffs team

Blah blah blah lottery is a crap shoot blah blah blah build a winning culture blah blah blah Rudy eye surgery blah blah blah

[Reg00]

Outside of Indiana and Chicago, the teams have their expiry date coming up. Likely within the next two-three years. About the same time Val hits his stride.

And also, I could see this Raptors roster playing at their peak beating a Knicks team or even the Pacers team. And who knows what Rose will look like, if his injury is truly behind them.

And additionally, if its about teams not being able to match up well with the Heat? Is that like, 97% of the league right now? So is the entire NBA going into Tank mode then? Where are all these guys gonna play then?

If the window to compete in the East will be in 2-3 seasons then why don't we try to add some top shelf talent alongside JV during the interim period so their primes actually line up?

Hit the nail on the head as far as why this team should be focused on the upcoming draft than pretending to be a bottom seed playoffs team

What pretender is there if we actually are? Like a 6-8th seed? And then we beat the Knicks in the first round and get the Pacers in the second? Wouldn't that be awesome?!

Or we could trade everything away and hope for a lottery. And entire season waiting for a few balls to drop the right way. Risky is all. Risky. Tankers can't pretend to ignore how much risk there is in their strategy.

[ciueli]

The biggest concern I have right now is Rudy Gay. If he plays great after vision correction surgery in a contract year and gets us into the playoffs, he will probably bolt in free agency. Our team will go back to being a non-playoff team the next season, and we will have missed out on the riches at the top of the upcoming draft.

It's exactly what happened to our team the year Bosh was just good enough to get us one game away from the playoffs, then leave for Miami the next season. Just a few picks higher and we could have landed Paul George or Greg Monroe.

[sanity]

What pretender is there if we actually are? Like a 6-8th seed? And then we beat the Knicks in the first round and get the Pacers in the second? Wouldn't that be awesome?!

Or we could trade everything away and hope for a lottery. And entire season waiting for a few balls to drop the right way. Risky is all. Risky. Tankers can't pretend to ignore how much risk there is in their strategy.

It is far more risky to gamble on Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry returning on discounts (as opposed to leaving for absolutely nothing in return), than manage our current asset base and look towards the team's future via draft. It would be different if our best players were already locked on contract and they could be foundation pieces alongside Valanciunas. It is not that type of situation.

We are approaching another scenario similar to how Bosh left, leaving Bryan sucking his thumb, only this time its 2 non-all star players who are perceived to be players of awesome value on a bubble team. It makes sense to use their value to get potential long-term pieces alongside Jonas.

[raptorscam]

I don't know how realistic a debate this is. Barring some real issues I can't see how this team wins less than 30 games with all the awful teams out there so the likelihood of a top 5 pick is pretty slim with an improved JV, with Gay the whole season and with the likelihood that they won't be as horrifically unlucky as they were in the first quarter of last season between the bad officiating and last second losses. They won 34 games last year with no better a team than they have now and after a 4-19 start. How are they going to "compete" with the Utah, Phoenix, Philly, Boston, Charlotte, Orlando's of the world?

[Reg00]

What pretender is there if we actually are? Like a 6-8th seed? And then we beat the Knicks in the first round and get the Pacers in the second? Wouldn't that be awesome?!

Or we could trade everything away and hope for a lottery. And entire season waiting for a few balls to drop the right way. Risky is all. Risky. Tankers can't pretend to ignore how much risk there is in their strategy.

It is far more risky to gamble on Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry returning on discounts (as opposed to leaving for absolutely nothing in return), than manage our current asset base and look towards the team's future via draft. It would be different if our best players were already locked on contract and they could be foundation pieces alongside Valanciunas. It is not that type of situation.

We are approaching another scenario similar to how Bosh left, leaving Bryan sucking his thumb, only this time its 2 non-all star players who are perceived to be players of awesome value on a bubble team. It makes sense to use their value to get potential long-term pieces alongside Jonas.

And this is it, we're knee jerking off every bad move that Bryan did. We are scared of everything bad happening so we might as well WANT bad things to happen and then we can at least be assured we wanted it in the first place.

[VintageVince]

A Julius Randle beside Jonas would be a nice combination.

[ciueli]

The only way I see Rudy Gay not opting out is if he has a poor season or gets injured.

Last season, as a Raptor, he put up roughly 20ppg/5rpg/2.5apg/42.5%FG/32.5%3ptFG. If he can improve to 23ppg/6rpg/3apg/45%FG/35%3ptFG he is not that far off what Carmelo Anthony did last season. In this league, that's a guy who could get a max or near-max contract thrown at him by some desperate team with a ton of cap space like the Lakers.

Sure we could offer him the extra year and a bit more money, but do you really think he'd pick Toronto over L.A.? And would we even want to spend, say, 5 years 100M+ on a player like Rudy Gay?

[StMikes31]

What pretender is there if we actually are? Like a 6-8th seed? And then we beat the Knicks in the first round and get the Pacers in the second? Wouldn't that be awesome?!

Or we could trade everything away and hope for a lottery. And entire season waiting for a few balls to drop the right way. Risky is all. Risky. Tankers can't pretend to ignore how much risk there is in their strategy.

It is far more risky to gamble on Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry returning on discounts (as opposed to leaving for absolutely nothing in return), than manage our current asset base and look towards the team's future via draft. It would be different if our best players were already locked on contract and they could be foundation pieces alongside Valanciunas. It is not that type of situation.

We are approaching another scenario similar to how Bosh left, leaving Bryan sucking his thumb, only this time its 2 non-all star players who are perceived to be players of awesome value on a bubble team. It makes sense to use their value to get potential long-term pieces alongside Jonas.

And this is it, we're knee jerking off every bad move that Bryan did. We are scared of everything bad happening so we might as well WANT bad things to happen and then we can at least be assured we wanted it in the first place.

We aren't knee jerking. We are finally (we hope) planning for the future and building around a young core with upside that can potentially compete for a title. This team is not good enough and we won't be at the top of the East for quite a while. Masai has a great 2 year window to suck and collect as many assets as possible just before our re-branding and all-star game (hopefully). Now's the time to do this; not in 2 years.

[StMikes31]

I don't know how realistic a debate this is. Barring some real issues I can't see how this team wins less than 30 games with all the awful teams out there so the likelihood of a top 5 pick is pretty slim with an improved JV, with Gay the whole season and with the likelihood that they won't be as horrifically unlucky as they were in the first quarter of last season between the bad officiating and last second losses. They won 34 games last year with no better a team than they have now and after a 4-19 start. How are they going to "compete" with the Utah, Phoenix, Philly, Boston, Charlotte, Orlando's of the world?

As it stands now, we won't. We've been saying if this team stays together, we will more than likely win 32-38 games and that is the worst possible position to be in.

20 games is the max imo for this team to be broken up because all those teams you mentioned will suck and we will have the teams tanking mid year to make it even harder for us to get a top 5 pick.

[Salted Meat]

A Julius Randle beside Jonas would be a nice combination.

...and this is why I don't worry or stress whether we'll get Wiggins or not.

Randle is not only very skilled, but dude gets at it. Him and Jonas would be a lot of fun to watch. Just relentless.

Jabari Parker would also look good there too (although I question what he'll get from Duke. Not to hate on Duke, it's just that their best current alumnus is a toss up between Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer.)

Aaron Gordon works too... Marcus Smart and Andrew Harrison look like solid PG prospects if you"re looking for one of those...

Gee, sure seems like a lot of decent prospects that aren't named Andrew Wiggins. I wonder if that would be, I don't know, a good indication that we might want to put ourselves in a position to draft one of those guys?
Maybe?

When it comes to tanking, you have to be tactical. This year is a tactical tank, where the prize isn't just one or two possible top-tier prospects, but six to eight.

If someone suggested we tank last season, I wouldn't have agreed with it, because the draft was weak, and we knew that going into it. This year is different. It's in our best long-term interest to tank this season.

[RyanW]

Tank for Wiggins... That is all.

[SkywalkerAC]

A Julius Randle beside Jonas would be a nice combination.

...and this is why I don't worry or stress whether we'll get Wiggins or not.

Randle is not only very skilled, but dude gets at it. Him and Jonas would be a lot of fun to watch. Just relentless.

Jabari Parker would also look good there too (although I question what he'll get from Duke. Not to hate on Duke, it's just that their best current alumnus is a toss up between Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer.)

Aaron Gordon works too... Marcus Smart and Andrew Harrison look like solid PG prospects if you"re looking for one of those...

Gee, sure seems like a lot of decent prospects that aren't named Andrew Wiggins. I wonder if that would be, I don't know, a good indication that we might want to put ourselves in a position to draft one of those guys?
Maybe?

When it comes to tanking, you have to be tactical. This year is a tactical tank, where the prize isn't just one or two possible top-tier prospects, but six to eight.

If someone suggested we tank last season, I wouldn't have agreed with it, because the draft was weak, and we knew that going into it. This year is different. It's in our best long-term interest to tank this season.

Is it worth the tank to come out with a really good power forward? Isn't the league stacked with such players or are these guys supposed to be on Duncan and KG's level?

[Ponchos]

Not to hate on Duke, it's just that their best current alumnus is a toss up between Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer.)

Irving > Deng/Boozer.

[fredericklove]

...and this is why I don't worry or stress whether we'll get Wiggins or not.

Randle is not only very skilled, but dude gets at it. Him and Jonas would be a lot of fun to watch. Just relentless.

Jabari Parker would also look good there too (although I question what he'll get from Duke. Not to hate on Duke, it's just that their best current alumnus is a toss up between Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer.)

Aaron Gordon works too... Marcus Smart and Andrew Harrison look like solid PG prospects if you"re looking for one of those...

Gee, sure seems like a lot of decent prospects that aren't named Andrew Wiggins. I wonder if that would be, I don't know, a good indication that we might want to put ourselves in a position to draft one of those guys?
Maybe?

When it comes to tanking, you have to be tactical. This year is a tactical tank, where the prize isn't just one or two possible top-tier prospects, but six to eight.

If someone suggested we tank last season, I wouldn't have agreed with it, because the draft was weak, and we knew that going into it. This year is different. It's in our best long-term interest to tank this season.

Is it worth the tank to come out with a really good power forward? Isn't the league stacked with such players or are these guys supposed to be on Duncan and KG's level?

If missing out on Wiggins but end up w/ a really good power forward, then yes it's worth it. The only way it's not worth to tank is if there's no player worth having besides Wiggins.

You don't need to have a Duncan/KG level guy in the draft to justify tanking, but a talent pool of 5-6 guys w/ all star level potential is just as worthy of tanking (this is mentioned a lot of time in here)