Please critique my hypothesis.

[The Rebel]

What do you think about this article:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1664 ... -is-a-jinx

It seems that Lawson was pretty shocked that Karl was fired. Have you considered that this might be the 'culture' that Iggy is referring to?

Really an article from bleacher report, a site anybody can sign up on and post the articles they write? come on you can do better then that.

[The Rebel]

And it seems like most people predicted the Nuggets to win around 51 games. And Yes, I think the difference between 57 and 51 is pretty huge in the NBA. It's usually the difference between home court advantage or not.

It seems like your major support of Igoudala is based on advanced stats. Is it not? Funny thing is find me several analysts that used advanced stats prior to last season and predicted the Nuggets would end up with 51 wins. While I do not have the links right on hand, I did a post a few weeks ago showing that the average advanced statistician that did preseason predictions last year predicted the Nuggets would end up with between 55-59 wins, with the average being 56.4 wins. so the Nuggets overachieved a half game.

You should also consider the Nuggets team was based on an advanced stats concept, called the 4 factors, here is a link to an explanation of the 4 factors, these factors consist of
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/factors.html

How do basketball teams win games? While searching for an answer to that question, Dean Oliver identified what he called the "Four Factors of Basketball Success":

Shooting (40%)
Turnovers (25%)
Rebounding (20%)
Free Throws (15%)

The number in parentheses is the approximate weight Mr. Oliver assigned each factor.

These numbers are based on both ends, but should predict the chance for success.

While the Nuggets on offense tried to conform to these stats, fact is Karl's teams have always struggled in opponent shooting percentage, especially against the 3. allowing free throws, defensive rebounding, and of course their own outside shooting percentage. They have been good at getting turnovers offensive rebounds, and taking as many shots as possible in the paint and from 3. This has long been a trend with karl's teams his entire time in Denver, go back look at the stats of the teams over the last few years. Fact is having Brewer as the designated outside shooter off the bench was a joke just with the capabilities of Fournier and Hamilton, but Karl insisted, after all shooting around 33% from 3 is the same as shooting 50% of 2s.

Fact is karl had 9 years in Denver, he was only successful with a team 1 season, where even karl himself has said Billups was the one who wrote the plays, and ran the team on the court. Outside of that the team has continually underachieved in the playoffs, and for several years I would say they underachieved in the regular season as well. In his position he had no right to demand not only an extension but a raise, and get in his bosses face while he was at it. Any job in the world where you underachieve, ask for a raise, and get in the owners face, will fire you quicker then you can blink in that situation. Fact is this team was built for exactly like he has always said he wanted, yet it feel apart once the hit the playoffs once again. Many were calling for Karl's head after being outcoached by Mark Jackson, but getting in the owners face a few days later is just stupid.

Also this whole thing about the media being on karl's dick, you are right they are, you see karl gives them good quotes and hangs out and drinks with the media guys, they love karl. Makes their job easier. Fact is Karl had to beg to get a job after the fiasco in the world championships and the Bucks, add to that out of all the guys the Nuggets lost, he is the only one that did not seem to even get a face to face interview, and I have a hard time seeing why it was not time for a change.

For all the hype Igoudala is getting, fact is he was a well below average shooter with a TS% that ranked him 12 on the team, he is a well below free throw shooter ranking 12th on the team behind such great free throw shooters as McGee and faried, the Nuggets offense efficiency was actually more then 5 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the court. According to mysynergy sports Iggy gave up .8 Points per possession, and only scored .88, for comparison Gallo gave up .82 points per possession but scored 1.0 points per possession. figuring in actual possessions for as good of a defender as Iggy is with his terrible offense he had a net benefit to the team of less than 1 point every 10 games. Now are the Nuggets done losing that?

What about when you factor in other advanced stats? Such as the fact the Nuggets offensive rating dropped over 5% on offensive efficiency with him on the court, but of course the defense rating improved with him on the court though (because he was such a huge defensive presence), except it only improved 0.1. That's right his defense was a huge difference maker basically accounting for 1 point per 1000 possessions. Damn how will the Nuggets survive without him.

Of course his rebounding rate did not help with him being only the 9th best rebounder on the team, of course he was the best on the team at getting steals, unfortunantly he was also the team leader at turning over the ball actually giving up the ball .9 times more per game than he stole it. In other words just about every game he turned the ball over almost 1 more time than he actually stole it.

Now winshares, he had some win shares ranking all the way up at 5th for total winshares, of course when that number is adjusted for minutes played, to a .97 which put him 11th on the team and below average league wide, which is not good considering he is on a team that won 57 games, meaning the starters should be well above league average.

Fact is the only number that shows he was actually a truly net positive for the team is plus minus, however that number is affected more than a little by the fact that he was backed up by the great Corey Brewer, and his buddy Andre Miller.

The worst part of the whole stats thing is the fact that those numbers improved dramatically the last month of the season, when Igoudala decided he may want to start working hard for his next deal, fact is if you watched and paid attention it was obvious that Igoudala played like crap for the 1st 3 months.

Now all that being said, yes Igoudala is a good player but he is not the god a couple on this board seem to think as shown by advanced stats. Karl is even a good coach, however he is going to the hall of fame due strictly to longevity of career, I have yet to have anybody show me a roster that overachieved in the playoffs when it actually matters, but I can find a few that underachieved.

To top it off, some people may be happy with being mediocre, after all in a league where more then half of the franchises make the playoffs every year, then 1st round exits are mediocre. however I would consider a Nuggets team that brought back Karl and Igoudala (with a severe overpay considering he signed with a team that offered significantly less then the Nuggets did), with limited to no other moves to be a treadmill team. A team staying on the border of hell. Never developing young talent, never getting good draft picks to get all star potential talent, never having cap room to make moves, and having most of the cap allocated for the next 3 or 4 years. I would rather take a new coach with the reputation for developing young and difficult players, with a chance for that guy to develop the young players, and see what happens.

Let me let you in on another little secret, if Shaw is a disaster, and none of the young guys work out, then the Nuggets will be lined up to get a lotto pick in what appears to be the best draft since 2003, and will still have the same core of a team together that was on pace to win 47 games 2 years ago while they were younger and not nearly as developed.

[scottcarman]

Let me let you in on another little secret, if Shaw is a disaster, and none of the young guys work out, then the Nuggets will be lined up to get a lotto pick in what appears to be the best draft since 2003, and will still have the same core of a team together that was on pace to win 47 games 2 years ago while they were younger and not nearly as developed.



This is absolutely horrible. We were the third youngest team in the league. The team had not played together long and we are already considering that getting in the lottery might be a good thing?

Regarding the rest of your rant, blah, blah, blah.....

If the Nuggets have done so good this offseason, then show me the articles about how firing the coach of the year, and the executive of the year is a great thing for the Nugget organization. It's fairly obvious there is not much objectivity on this forum.

Fact, we all are speculating and none of us will really ever know the complete truth. I have my opinions, and I hope I am wrong, but I am willing to listen to why you think I am wrong. I may not agree with you, but I try to be objective.

I don't think Iggy was a saviour, but I think it would have been really valuable to have a player that has played in the Olympics and has some veteran credibility on a young team. Especially since Dre is on his way out. Who is the veteran that is going to keep this group together? Essentially they split Iggy into Foye/Arthur/Hickson/NRobinson. We split a quarter into a bunch of nickels. We should have been trying to package Quarters/nickels/dimes to get a 50 cent piece.

I think Shaw will have a lot of difficulty getting credibility in the locker room. It's different when you are the assistant coach and commiserate little bit, but completely different when you are the head coach. Kroenke has stacked the deck against him by leaving him an impossible situation of dividing minutes equitably. As the roster stands, several players will have their career impacted by lack of playing time. I'm not sure who.

Maybe I'll start another thread predicting minutes at each position.

[CanNugget]

Big f**king surprise, you ignored 2/3 of what was said and just repeated yourself. Just once I'd love to see you go through someone's reply and actually address the WHOLE response. Instead you reply with things like "Regarding the rest of your rant, blah, blah, blah....."

[scottcarman]

I have better things to do then correct every false notion that you have. It's really not my job.

I have the macro evidence.... People that are paid to study and analyze the nba, have pretty much ageed with many of the things that I have said. I'm sure that it is the rest of the nation that doesn't understand the Nuggets and you are completely correct.

I'm not going to feel bad about my opinions... I think the Nuggets would have been better with Ujiri/Karl/Iggy then they are now with Connelly/Shaw/Hickson/Foye/NRob.

I'm sorry that I have been a fan for 25 years and I wanted to see a great team stick together. It seems silly to take a step back now.

I don't understand how Shaw is supposed to develop the younger players if he also has to play NRob, Foye, Hickson..... I hope it becomes clearer later, but I don't understand the direction or identity of this team. Is Lawson our #1? Is he capable of that or are we still looking for a #1?

[corona]

If the Nuggets have done so good this offseason, then show me the articles about how firing the coach of the year, and the executive of the year is a great thing for the Nugget organization.

ujiri was not fired.

I don't think Iggy was a saviour, but I think it would have been really valuable to have a player that has played in the Olympics and has some veteran credibility on a young team. Especially since Dre is on his way out. Who is the veteran that is going to keep this group together?

i think if you've actually followed iguodala's philly career, you wouldn't pin him as a leader.
not to mention true leaders don't stand on the sidelines and chat with the opposing coaches about the gameplan or 'how they dont' agree with it' or whatever, during a pivotal game in a playoff series.

lawson has to take those reigns sooner or later....and i think shaw can be an ultimate mentor in that because he has been a championship point guard. and he has been a leader on teams with great players who would listen to him. shaw doesn't have to be the leader for the whole team....just needs to guide lawson in how to do it.

I think Shaw will have a lot of difficulty getting credibility in the locker room.

then trade the entire team for being so stupid and ignorant.

make them read his wiki page. make them read a story about his life. he's a winner, he's a leader, he's a good person. what more could you want?
5 time nba champion. fiba gold medalist. his playing and coaching career has allowed him to learn from the two greatest coaches in nba history. two of the ~top 10 players of all time (larry bird & shaq) thought he was head coach material 5 years ago.

People that are paid to study and analyze the nba, have pretty much ageed with many of the things that I have said. I'm sure that it is the rest of the nation that doesn't understand the Nuggets and you are completely correct.

who do you trust more to report correctly, gather multiple opinions and come to their own conclusion on news happenings in your town...

the national foxnews channel
or your local newspaper?

just because they're bigger and there's more of them doesn't make them more right.
(and don't say sports media isn't biased like foxnews is.....because they are. they love new york and la, big markets and star players because they sell more views and more advertising)

I'm sorry that I have been a fan for 25 years and I wanted to see a great team stick together.

i thought you were in favor of trading a package of guys to upgrade a position to an all-star level player?

[RRFB]

lawson has to take those reigns sooner or later....and i think shaw can be an ultimate mentor in that because he has been a championship point guard. and he has been a leader on teams with great players who would listen to him. shaw doesn't have to be the leader for the whole team....just needs to guide lawson in how to do it.

This is the one thing I'm just a little bit worried about now that Karl is gone. I think he really did a good job of pushing Ty. Karl constantly talked about how Lawson needs to be more aggressive with the ball in his hands and always pushed him to be a leader both on the court and in the locker room. They seemed to have a pretty good relationship especially with the whole North Carolina connection. I know Ty was the first player to voice his excitement about the Shaw hiring, but I do think Karl was really good for him.

[The Rebel]

Let me let you in on another little secret, if Shaw is a disaster, and none of the young guys work out, then the Nuggets will be lined up to get a lotto pick in what appears to be the best draft since 2003, and will still have the same core of a team together that was on pace to win 47 games 2 years ago while they were younger and not nearly as developed.



This is absolutely horrible. We were the third youngest team in the league. The team had not played together long and we are already considering that getting in the lottery might be a good thing?

No we are talking about worse case scenario, we get a lotto pick in the best draft in a decade, as opposed to being a young team stuck in neutral. Fact is the the worst case scenario with Karl was the lotto as well, especially with the team not having an experienced SG to start the season.

Regarding the rest of your rant, blah, blah, blah.....

Nice response, guess you really don't want to argue about basketball facts, just opinions written by national writers on the coasts, and Karl's buddies.

If the Nuggets have done so good this offseason, then show me the articles about how firing the coach of the year, and the executive of the year is a great thing for the Nugget organization. It's fairly obvious there is not much objectivity on this forum.

You ever heard the term winning the press conference? The Lakers did that pretty well last year, and how did all those writers opinions on how great that team was end up working out? By the way you want to discuss objectivity but refuse to discuss stats? Only want to discuss your opinion and a couple of writers that have a hard time even finding Denver on a map, as if that shows something?

Fact, we all are speculating and none of us will really ever know the complete truth. I have my opinions, and I hope I am wrong, but I am willing to listen to why you think I am wrong. I may not agree with you, but I try to be objective.

You are willing to listen, but you keep saying the same things over and over despite what many others have said, at least show us a real basis for your argument outside of ESPN analysts think the Nuggets screwed up. What's next you going to start quoting Alfred Williams?

I don't think Iggy was a saviour, but I think it would have been really valuable to have a player that has played in the Olympics and has some veteran credibility on a young team. Especially since Dre is on his way out. Who is the veteran that is going to keep this group together? Essentially they split Iggy into Foye/Arthur/Hickson/NRobinson. We split a quarter into a bunch of nickels. We should have been trying to package Quarters/nickels/dimes to get a 50 cent piece.

Igoudala is not a leader and has never been a leader. As for some kind of credibility, why would a guy who has never done much in the NBA suddenly have credibility? Also either you believe that the Igoudala we saw all last year was the true Igoudala? Cause if you do he is declining and only able to play that way for a couple of weeks at a time, if not he was dogging it, and not a guy you should want near a young team.

Playing on an olympic roster as the defensive specialist is nice, but it is not like he was anything more then a scrub on the team. Now you want to discuss the age of the team, and that is all well and good, but you ignore the fact that the team is made up of plenty of veterans. Off the top of my head Lawson, Galinari, Chandler, Foye, Robinson, Hickson, chandler, McGee, A Miller, and Anthony randolph will all be in the league at least 4 years next season. When do you start treating someone like a veteran and not like a kid? Personally if a player ahs been in the league for 4 plus years, they should not need a veteran to tell them about life in the NBA, especially when that player has never won anything in the NBA.

also as I posted in my previous post, you say Andre Igoudala was a quarter, when looking at advanced stats that means you do not consider a quarter all that good. You also continue to talk about the youth on the team. So would you not say the Nuggets most promising young player in Fournier has a good chance to be at least a quarter? Yet you want to overpay a guy who is already showing signs of declining to play the same position?

As for trying to put together a package to get an upgrade, who is to say they are not working on something tonight? Trades happen prior to training camp often enough you would think an NBA fan would know the offseason is not necessarily over.

I think Shaw will have a lot of difficulty getting credibility in the locker room. It's different when you are the assistant coach and commiserate little bit, but completely different when you are the head coach. Kroenke has stacked the deck against him by leaving him an impossible situation of dividing minutes equitably. As the roster stands, several players will have their career impacted by lack of playing time. I'm not sure who.

Maybe I'll start another thread predicting minutes at each position.

Let's see a former player, who won multiple championships a team, that was brought into the Lakers as an assistant coach specifically due to his ability to keep peace between the fueding Shaq and Kobe, and has worked as a lead assistant on a team that won another championship, then was the associate head coach on a team that just made the Eastern Conference finals. I would say it is worth giving the guy a shot.

Please quit acting like Karl was fired to bring in Shaw, Karl was fired when he got in the owners face, and demanded a raise and guaranteed extension. karl created his own problem, and every owner in the league would have fired him, he thought he could just bully the young owner and it backfired on him.

One last thing. Can you tell me when the game starts tonight, I cannot find a listing for a Nuggets game for right about 2 months, but I seem to have missed it, after all you are so worried about what happens with minutes in the game the roster must be set and training camp must be over.

[The Rebel]

I have better things to do then correct every false notion that you have. It's really not my job.

I have the macro evidence.... People that are paid to study and analyze the nba, have pretty much ageed with many of the things that I have said. I'm sure that it is the rest of the nation that doesn't understand the Nuggets and you are completely correct.

so the east coast media guys say something it must be true? What about when they said it was a lock the Lakers and Thunder were going to the western conference finals last year? What about when the decided the Nets were contenders a year ago when they traded for Joe Johnson? Was it true when they said the Nuggets were done for years after trading Melo? Their analysis is a joke, and anybody who has paid attention to the Nuggets over the last few years knows it.

I'm not going to feel bad about my opinions... I think the Nuggets would have been better with Ujiri/Karl/Iggy then they are now with Connelly/Shaw/Hickson/Foye/NRob.

The Nuggets offered Ujiri and Iggy fair contracts, they were free agents, meaning they are allowed to go where they please. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Igoudala and Ujiri both choose to leave, they are gone. You can argue semantics of why all you want, but the Nuggets offered Igoudala more money and he choose to go to the Warriors after hanging out with them our entire playoff series. You can assume that keeping Karl and or Ujiri would have prevented that, but Ujiri was a free agent, and considering Igoudala was passing the game plan to Jackson, I would say that Igoudala and Karl must not have been very close.

As for Karl, more of the same every year was old, add in that he tried to force the young owner into a raise and extension, he would have gotten fired by any team in the league.

I'm sorry that I have been a fan for 25 years and I wanted to see a great team stick together. It seems silly to take a step back now.

I attended my first Nuggets game while I was still in diapers, and have always followed the Nuggets considering I am 37 years old I would say I have you beat as if that matters, and the only great team that the Nuggets ever had happened before you started following them. This was not a great team. Last I checked the Nuggets got killed by a 47 win team in the playoffs. Once again Karl coached like crap, yet he is a great coach? at the end of the day whether you win 47 games, 57 games, or 82 games during the regular season means nothing if you cannot make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

If you choose to accept mediocrity that is on you, and not our faults. Personally i would rather the Nuggets take a few risks and try to take the next step. Staying in 1 and done hell is not fun, I want my team to actually win when it matters, and can accept them trying to build a team that has a chance to do it.

I don't understand how Shaw is supposed to develop the younger players if he also has to play NRob, Foye, Hickson..... I hope it becomes clearer later, but I don't understand the direction or identity of this team. Is Lawson our #1? Is he capable of that or are we still looking for a #1?

Who says he has to play anybody? Shaw is the coach and gets to make his own choices in who he plays. Also what is so hard to understand about the direction of the team? The Nuggets have been stockpiling assets for 3 years, they continued to do that, they want everybody competing for minutes and this roster should have that at every position once Gallo gets back. They traded Koufos to bring in an actual big that can hit a jumpshot and defend the pick and roll, you know 2 of the Nuggets biggest weaknesses last year. Igoudala choose to leave for a smaller contract, they brought in a veteran shooter, and a guy who will improve the actual toughness of the team. They are also hoping that the young guys on the roster will be improved enough to beat out the guys they brought in, but if not then they have some decent options to eat minutes.

Also as I said in my last post, there is still plenty of time left in the offseason, nothing says they start the season with this roster.

[ChuckS]

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."- Mark Twain

I am less cynical than Twain. I think the real problem with statistics lies more with those who pervert the work of preeminent statisticians. I am not being "holier than thou". I'll probably do the same thing herein.

For all the hype Igoudala is getting, fact is he was a well below average shooter with a TS% that ranked him 12 on the team...

If anyone really believes that Randolph, McGee, Faried, Koufos, and Mozgov are better shooters, and not that as bigs are limited to layups and dunks, so be it.

If anyone believes that sample size is unimportant, and chooses to mention Fournier and Stone (#1 in the league for TS%) in the same breath as Dre, I will not argue.

I do not believe it is inconceivable that another knowledgeable fan could consider Dre as among the top five on the team for shooting importance. Of the non-bigs who actually played, only Chandler, Lawson, Gallinari, and Miller have a better TS%. Iguodala's eFG% is third (a tenth of a point behind Lawson), and his FG% is fourth (3.4% better than Gallo's).

the Nuggets offense efficiency was actually more then 5 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the court. According to mysynergy sports Iggy gave up .8 Points per possession, and only scored .88, for comparison Gallo gave up .82 points per possession but scored 1.0 points per possession. figuring in actual possessions for as good of a defender as Iggy is with his terrible offense he had a net benefit to the team of less than 1 point every 10 games. Now are the Nuggets done losing that?

If you want to make an exceptional defender, but average shooter, seem worthless, find an obscure offensive metric that looks important. Or go the "Swift Boat" route and find something that makes that defense look mediocre.

Iguodala played more minutes per game than anyone on the team, and I think obviously with good reason. He was off the floor for thirteen minutes per game. Certainly some of that time was for short rest breaks. But I think it is safe to say that some were also when the game was in hand, and in garbage time. I think you are being disingenuous using thirteen out of forty eight minutes to denigrate a player that most objective observers feel was, at least, one of the best on the team. He is not a prolific scorer, so it is possible that less competent players who shoot more, or even better, were on the floor in those minutes. So what?!

Of course his rebounding rate did not help with him being only the 9th best rebounder on the team

I'm sure rebounding rate is important to some. They probably do not care how few minutes some actually played. That's OK if looking at the rebounding potential a player might have if he were good enough to play more. How smart is it to say that Dre had a lower rebounding rate that the centers and power forwards? He's a freakin' guard! He was the best rebounding guard on the team, and one of the best in the league. I do not feel a bit dishonest pointing out that he was actually, in real game play, the third best rebounder on the team, behind Farried and Koufos.

Now winshares, he had some win shares ranking all the way up at 5th for total winshares, of course when that number is adjusted for minutes played, to a .97 which put him 11th on the team and below average league wide, which is not good considering he is on a team that won 57 games, meaning the starters should be well above league average.

"Hoopdata" lists him with the third highest winshares on the team, behind Farried and Koufos, respectively. I think it antithetical to everything statistics should be to dilute those numbers to make him look worse than those less valuable players, incapable of "earning" his minutes and legitimate winshares.

Fact is the only number that shows he was actually a truly net positive for the team is plus minus, however that number is affected more than a little by the fact that he was backed up by the great Corey Brewer, and his buddy Andre Miller.

That is really ridiculous considering that you would have to discount the plus/minus of all starters who start usually because they are better than reserves. What really shows his value is his own/opponent per differential, far and away the best on the team, and particularly impressive since he is usually guarding one of the oppositions most dangerous offensive forces.

In that regard, you pointed out his average PER to suggest mediocrity. As an expert statistician I'm sure you realize that scoring is an important part of that computation. As stated above, he has never been a prolific scorer. He did average eighteen points a game, when needed, playing for Mo Cheeks, before Doug Collins made him a point forward. His PER was higher then. Karl also used him to help run the offense. But more importantly he was often the third or fourth scoring option on a very well balanced Denver team.

I believe that, unlike coaches, most fans, probably subconsciously, judge players on most points scored. But in my mind the stat I mentioned above, own/opponent PER differential, is much more indicative of a good player. If you have a 15 PER and hold an opponent with a 20 PER to one of twelve, you are a big net positive.

The worst part of the whole stats thing is the fact that those numbers improved dramatically the last month of the season, when Igoudala decided he may want to start working hard for his next deal, fact is if you watched and paid attention it was obvious that Igoudala played like crap for the 1st 3 months.

I agree with whoever disagreed with you about Iguodala playing like crap early in the season. Right or wrong, on his own or the dictate of Coach, he deferred to Gallo, and other good shooters. His defense, rebounding, and play making was still consistently excellent. But Gallo got hurt, and Chandler's scoring dipped precipitously in the playoffs so he upped his game and was arguably Denver's best player against the Warriors. I remember seeing a half-time locker room clip. On the chalk board behind Coach Jackson was "IGUODALA" in large print. Under it were two other names I could not read. You can certainly attribute questionable motives to him doing what every good player should do in the playoffs, but I will not. And yes, I did watch and pay attention.

Now all that being said, yes Igoudala is a good player...

I was taught to begin with agreement. I couldn't do that with this post, but it is nice to end like that.

PS I couldn't find it but somewhere you expressed doubt about the Warriors getting better because they had to renounce two of their best reserves, and scorers, to acquire Dre. You could be correct, of course. But keep in mind that Denver gave up a starter and sixth man, their second and fourth best scorers for Iguodala, and they went from good to record setting.

[ujirifan]

ChuckS,

Thank you for that excellent point by point response to rebel. I am really disappointed in the two honchos of this board being completely incapable of anything but hyperbolic bias toward Iggy.

Also being a lifelong Bulls fan, I used to have arguments with some similarly unappreciative Bulls fans who thought that Iggy would represent a big improvement to the Bulls similar player, Luol Deng.

After watching him for a full season, I fully understand the positives he possesses over Deng and while I don't think that he would have been that much of an upgrade to Deng when both were in their mid-20's, I do appreciate the excellence that both bring in many facets of the game.

[Teens On Acid]

ChuckS,
I am really disappointed in the two honchos of this board being completely incapable of anything but hyperbolic bias toward Iggy.

Also being a lifelong Bulls fan, I used to have arguments with some similarly unappreciative Bulls fans who thought that Iggy would represent a big improvement to the Bulls similar player, Luol Deng.

After watching him for a full season, I fully understand the positives he possesses over Deng and while I don't think that he would have been that much of an upgrade to Deng when both were in their mid-20's, I do appreciate the excellence that both bring in many facets of the game.

lifelong bulls fan who is still defending iggy here on the nuggets board.
what are you doing here? what's the point? you're full of hot air.

[ujirifan]

[quote][/quote]lifelong bulls fan who is still defending iggy here on the nuggets board.
what are you doing here? what's the point? you're full of hot air.


Thanks, kid. You've really given me a chuckle.

Perhaps you could point me to one of YOUR posts here which contributes anything worth reading.

[Teens On Acid]

lifelong bulls fan who is still defending iggy here on the nuggets board.
what are you doing here? what's the point? you're full of hot air.


Thanks, kid. You've really given me a chuckle.

Perhaps you could point me to one of YOUR posts here which contributes anything worth reading.

Well you did just read and respond to 2 of my posts directed at you so you must have felt they were worth reading? :ugeek: you're a clown

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