Mike Trout is better than everyone

Lionlifer · Post #21 » by **Lionlifer** » Fri Aug 9, 2013 8:11 pm

And since I'm bored on this particular friday, I give you Miggy

#1 BA
#2 HR
#2 RBI
#4 Hits
#1 WAR (tied with Trout, and listed first)
#1 OBP
#2 Slugging
#1 OPS
#3 Walks
71 SO (vs 86 for Trout)

And all of this was done in fewer at bats (combination of injuries and Leyland)

All according to ESPN

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/order/true

trwi7 · Post #22 » by **trwi7** » Fri Aug 9, 2013 8:22 pm

Nobody's arguing that Cabrera is the best hitter. It's just that he sucks at everything else. And since Trout is also an excellent hitter while being good at everything else, he has more value than Cabrera.

Lionlifer · Post #23 » by **Lionlifer** » Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:15 pm

trwi7 wrote:Nobody's arguing that Cabrera is the best hitter. It's just that he sucks at everything else. And since Trout is also an excellent hitter while being good at everything else, he has more value than Cabrera.

Wasn't the WAR stat supposed to take all the other stuff into account, I'm not a big sabremetric guy, so correct me if I'm wrong.

But even if it doesn't , to say Miggy "sucks at everything else" is FAR from the truth. Doesn't have plus speed (obviously) but his fielding and arm are both good.

Post #24 » by **TyCobb** » Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:20 pm

WAR sucks and I hate that it's being accepted as the go-to stat in comparing players.

Post #25 » by **dockingsched** » Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:55 pm

Lionlifer wrote:, to say Miggy "sucks at everything else" is FAR from the truth.

its pretty on point.

DirtyDez · Post #26 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:22 am

TyCobb wrote:WAR sucks and I hate that it's being accepted as the go-to stat in comparing players.

Why because it measures a player's complete game? I hate that players are judged only by what they do in the batters box...

DirtyDez · Post #27 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:33 am

Lionlifer wrote:But yet his team still doesn't win

I couldn't help myself

Look past the standings, oh wait we're still in the 1930's. :lol:

trwi7 · Post #28 » by **trwi7** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am

Lionlifer wrote:but his fielding and arm are both good.

And lulz were had by all non Detroit fans.

Post #29 » by **TyCobb** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:31 am

DirtyDez wrote:
TyCobb wrote:WAR sucks and I hate that it's being accepted as the go-to stat in comparing players.

Why because it measures a player's complete game? I hate that players are judged only by what they do in the batters box...

There isnt a stat out there that measures defense accurately.

DirtyDez · Post #30 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:06 am

TyCobb wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
TyCobb wrote:WAR sucks and I hate that it's being accepted as the go-to stat in comparing players.

Why because it measures a player's complete game? I hate that players are judged only by what they do in the batters box...

There isnt a stat out there that measures defense accurately.

Stats aren't perfect. Just look at batting average, it's probably the most hilarious stat people use to compare hitters. I also disagree about WAR being accepted, it's mostly hated...

Lionlifer · Post #31 » by **Lionlifer** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:47 am

trwi7 wrote:
Lionlifer wrote:but his fielding and arm are both good.

And lulz were had by all non Detroit fans.

I'll admit good may have been a stretch (homer tendencies I suppose), but they aren't as bad as this thread would have you believe.

Lionlifer · Post #32 » by **Lionlifer** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:51 am

DirtyDez wrote:
TyCobb wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Why because it measures a player's complete game? I hate that players are judged only by what they do in the batters box...

There isnt a stat out there that measures defense accurately.

Stats aren't perfect. Just look at batting average, it's probably the most hilarious stat people use to compare hitters. I also disagree about WAR being accepted, it's mostly hated...

I for one hate the WAR stat,truthfully I only included it as that was the main point for the other side in the Miggy vs Trout MVP debate.

And not to role two comments into one, 1930's or not, people still care about the standings. It puts a tarnish on individual achievements if your team is bombing, the whole empty stats debate

Post #33 » by **studcrackers** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:20 pm

well trout's team had a better record than cabrera's last year but nobody seemed to give a sh*t about that b/c the tigers played in a worse division and made the playoffs

Zeitgeister · Post #34 » by **Zeitgeister** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:56 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
TyCobb wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Why because it measures a player's complete game? I hate that players are judged only by what they do in the batters box...

There isnt a stat out there that measures defense accurately.

Stats aren't perfect. Just look at batting average, it's probably the most hilarious stat people use to compare hitters. I also disagree about WAR being accepted, it's mostly hated...

Defensive stats are very flawed, it's just the truth and WAR is based a lot on that. You don't need WAR though to know that Trout plays a more premium defensive position, and does so at an elite level while Cabrera plays perhaps a passable third base. Trout is MUCH more valuable defensively.

DirtyDez · Post #35 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:Defensive stats are very flawed, it's just the truth and WAR is based a lot on that. You don't need WAR though to know that Trout plays a more premium defensive position, and does so at an elite level while Cabrera plays perhaps a passable third base. Trout is MUCH more valuable defensively.

right but Trout's defense hasn't been nearly as good as last year and his WAR has suffered because of it. Of course when I say "suffer" I mean still being a top 2 overall player depending which system you prefer. WAR still values offense more, for example Miggy is still a bad defender but he's still rated as a top 1-2 player overall because of his legendary offense.

This is why people thought the triple crown thing was overblown. He's much better offensively this season than 2012, but probably won't win the triple crown.

Zeitgeister · Post #36 » by **Zeitgeister** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:21 pm

Yeah, I had a pretty lengthy debate in the other thread about Miggy being beter this year and likely not winning the triple crown. I also mentioned Bonds and Pujols being likely triple crown candidates every year but never winning it. Obviously you have to have a great season to hit for the Triple Crown but it was overblown.

Post #37 » by **TyCobb** » Tue Sep 3, 2013 3:44 am

Trout has over a .500 OBP since the All-Star break.

Post #38 » by **TyCobb** » Tue Sep 3, 2013 6:03 pm

Lionlifer · Post #39 » by **Lionlifer** » Mon Sep 9, 2013 4:41 pm

Interesting take on the debate we were having. Don't agree with everything this guy says, but it does bring up some fun talking points

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/23559937/stock-watch-fish-tales-boost-trout-but-truth-is-miggy-is-still-better

Zeitgeister · Post #40 » by **Zeitgeister** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:25 am

I have a hard time determining who is better. Not a fan of WAR or defensive statistics in general, but with that said I do know that Trout has a MUCH more significant impact on the game defensively than Cabrera does. Cabrera has finally come to some what of a point where he's not a complete liability defensively.

Offensively you give it to Cabrera of course, but it's much closer than it should be, really. Trout brings something to the table on the basepaths and is a 1.000 OPS hitter, which is incredible for a center fielder. As a point of reference, Ken Griffey Jr. had 4 seasons with an OPS over 1.000 and Trout's putting one up while being two years younger than the first year Griffey did it. Two years younger than the first time Mantle did it as well.