Peaks - Shaq vs. Hakeem

[nolunch]

LOL...13 Lebron cannot score over 20 pts against Leonard with enough spacing.

Lebron was scoring fine over Leonard and the Spurs when he had snipers everywhere, see the end of the 3rd quarter and the beginning of the 4th quarter of Game 6 if you want to know what I'm talking. It wasn't 4 shooters either, it was 3, Birdman was the Center during that run. They rallied back because Lebron was playing with good spacing. He had a more difficult time with Wade out there because Wade kills the spacing. In Game 7, Lebron got the confidence in his shot back though and he killed the Spurs in that game despite Wade being out there and killing the spacing.

Nevertheless, he isn't above Jordan because of his lack of confidence in his jump shot at times (most of the 2013 Finals). He does have enough in his game to be above just about everyone else though.

Ranking 13 Lebron over other all time greats is an insult.

[TheChosen618]

LOL...13 Lebron cannot score over 20 pts against Leonard with enough spacing.

Lebron was scoring fine over Leonard and the Spurs when he had snipers everywhere, see the end of the 3rd quarter and the beginning of the 4th quarter of Game 6 if you want to know what I'm talking. It wasn't 4 shooters either, it was 3, Birdman was the Center during that run. They rallied back because Lebron was playing with good spacing. He had a more difficult time with Wade out there because Wade kills the spacing. In Game 7, Lebron got the confidence in his shot back though and he killed the Spurs in that game despite Wade being out there and killing the spacing.

Nevertheless, he isn't above Jordan because of his lack of confidence in his jump shot at times (most of the 2013 Finals). He does have enough in his game to be above just about everyone else though.

Ranking 13 Lebron over other all time greats is an insult.

Good job, you really convinced me. I think Lebron sucks now.

Thanks for your wonderful contributions to this thread.


/green

[MrBigShot]

Hakeem, too much of a beast. Offensively, and defensively. To be quite honest I believe Hakeem was the best two-way center of all time.

[JordansBulls]

Hakeem, too much of a beast. Offensively, and defensively. To be quite honest I believe Hakeem was the best two-way center of all time.

Maybe best two way center of all time, but does that mean best impact wise overall?

[Nairobi]

WAY better competition.

Overrated choke artist Patrick Ewing, and choke artist David Robinson. I'd go the same route, and say none of the teams he faced in his prime had a second option like Clyde.

[Nairobi]

Shaq's peak is overrated. He had moments during his 3 year peak where he faltered big time in the playoffs. Back to back stinkers in Games 6 and 7 vs. Portland in '00. His subpar performance during the '02 WCSF vs. San Antonio. No such problem for peak Hakeem from 92-95. He had nothing remotely as poor as Shaq's '02 vs. SA. Nor anything remotely as poor as Shaq's '00 game 7 WCF performance with his season on the line facing elimination.

It should be noted in 94 and 95, Hakeem faced 3 HOF C's in Ewing, DRob and Shaq over the course of 17 games and was outscored in ZERO games.

Hakeem's runs in either '94 or '95 was superior to any of Shaq's. In '94 he became the only player in NBA history to lead a title team in every major statistical facets (ppg, rpg, bpg, asts, stls). Peak Shaq was never capable of performing all such facets for a playoff team. Nor leading such a unbalance playoff team, Hakeem was also the only player to more than double his 2nd best players' ppg average.

And in '95 which imho is the GOAT individual playoff run by a player to a title, the final HOFer he went through was Shaq himself.

You mean when a 32 year old Hakeem battled a 22 year old Shaq? The same Shaq would outshot him by a .595 to .483 margin, while outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking him and had one teammmate who averaged 17 ppg and 10 rpg in that Finals, another who was at 21.5 ppg and 9.5 rpg, and yet another teammate who averaged 16.3 ppg, on get this... .629 shooting? ...and then OUTSCORED them by 50 points from the line?

Hakeem remains one of the most overrated players on the internet...

ONE MVP (in a season in which MJ did not play...oh, and not coincidently, Hakeem eked out a ring.) ONE second place finish in the MVP balloting. TWO other Top-FOUR's. So, FOUR Top-4's in the MVP balloting, in his 18 seasons. Oh, and BTW, EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoff exits. How about Hakeem in his three Finals? He was NEVER the leading shooter in ANY of them. Hell, he wasn't even the leading shooter on his own team in ANY of them. He was only the FIFTH best shooter in his '86 Finals (and SIXTH if you include Walton and his .621 off the bench), at .479. He had a teammate who shot .588. Also, the "Dream" not only was outrebounded by his OPPOSING CENTER in TWO of them, he was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one, and was only the third best rebounder in one series, and the fourth best rebounder in the other Hakeem battled a starting HOF center in 35 of his 145 playoff games, including a 39 year old Kareem in six, against the same Kareem that in TEN STRAIGHT GAMES...AVERAGED 33 ppg on .630 shooting and hung three games of 40+ on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, including a 46 point explosion in only 37 minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You mean when a 32 year old Hakeem battled a 22 year old Shaq? The same Shaq would outshot him by a .595 to .483 margin, while outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking him and had one teammmate who averaged 17 ppg and 10 rpg in that Finals, another who was at 21.5 ppg and 9.5 rpg, and yet another teammate who averaged 16.3 ppg, on get this... .629 shooting? ...and then OUTSCORED them by 50 points from the line?

Yeah I like how a Shaq fan can never talk of what the matchup would've been like if Hakeem was in his 3rd NBA season and Shaq was 32 years old. They have to use the "he was young cop-out". How much experience did Tim Duncan have when he outperformed/produced a more experience Shaq on the way his first title in only his 2nd year btw?

It would've been even worse for Shaq. At 32, he already ran to his 3rd team and missing reg season games at an alarming rate. At age 32 he wasn't even good enough to be a franchise calibre Center/1st option, he had to rely on deferring to Wade to have any sort of success. The year before he couldn't even outrebound 6'9" Ben Wallace h2h in a playoff series.

Hakeem while not at his knowledge-able best basketball wise by his 3rd year was a flat out terror at both ends of the floor and at his athletic zenith and as his 86 playoff run had already proven to be a big game C when the chips were down against him in the playoffs.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

ONE MVP (in a season in which MJ did not play...oh, and not coincidently, Hakeem eked out a ring.) ONE second place finish in the MVP balloting. TWO other Top-FOUR's. So, FOUR Top-4's in the MVP balloting, in his 18 seasons. Oh, and BTW, EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoff exits. How about Hakeem in his three Finals? He was NEVER the leading shooter in ANY of them. Hell, he wasn't even the leading shooter on his own team in ANY of them. He was only the FIFTH best shooter in his '86 Finals (and SIXTH if you include Walton and his .621 off the bench), at .479. He had a teammate who shot .588. Also, the "Dream" not only was outrebounded by his OPPOSING CENTER in TWO of them, he was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one, and was only the third best rebounder in one series, and the fourth best rebounder in the other Hakeem battled a starting HOF center in 35 of his 145 playoff games, including a 39 year old Kareem in six, against the same Kareem that in TEN STRAIGHT GAMES...AVERAGED 33 ppg on .630 shooting and hung three games of 40+ on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, including a 46 point explosion in only 37 minutes.

Uh excuse me, what sort of negative effect did MJ ever have on Hakeem's playing career? He led a team to a NBA Finals before MJ even led the Bulls to a winning record. Hakeem imho should've won the '93 NBA reg season MVP (which ironically he finished ahead of MJ that year in voting).

Yeah the '86 Finals against arguably the GOAT team, not having any teamate average more than 15ppg, a suspended PG and that series still managed to go 6 games.....because of Hakeem. Shaq never faced a Finals team like that. In '94 Hakeem becomes the only player in NBA history to lead a playoff title team in all 5 major statistical categories and you're fixated on shooting %.

This thread is about their PEAKS, not their careers. I guess your disdain at watching Hakeem hoist a Finals MVP at Shaq's expense forces you to stray off-topic. No shame in being lit up by Kareem, who is imo the GOAT C. 39 yr old Kareem was still better than any of those cupcakes peak Shaq faced h2h.

[Jase]

And in 94' Hakeem didn't have a second option nearly as good as Kobe was.

There is something to be said both for and against this argument.....
Say, for example, that Shaq could have been even more dominant without a ballhawk like Kobe alongside him. In that theory, it is even more impressive that Shaq was as dominant as he was and put up his respective numbers. What if Shaq played without Bryant during his peak....does he average 40-15?

When you don't have a lot of help, you're expected to put up gawdy numbers.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

And in 94' Hakeem didn't have a second option nearly as good as Kobe was.

There is something to be said both for and against this argument.....
Say, for example, that Shaq could have been even more dominant without a ballhawk like Kobe alongside him. In that theory, it is even more impressive that Shaq was as dominant as he was and put up his respective numbers. What if Shaq played without Bryant during his peak....does he average 40-15?.....how

When you don't have a lot of help, you're expected to put up gawdy numbers.

Yeah....how does Shaq get past Tim Duncans Spurs in the playoffs given his only playoff success came in a deferential role to Kobe Bryant?

The answer is he doesn't.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

WAY better competition.

Overrated choke artist Patrick Ewing, and choke artist David Robinson. I'd go the same route, and say none of the teams he faced in his prime had a second option like Clyde.

Yeah I dare you to show me a title Shaq at any stage of his career would've won in either Ewings shoes or DRobs pre Duncan career on those teams. He cried his way outta teams more talented than either of those two played for more than once.

Hakeem was more beneficial to Clyde.....he was fading in Portland prior to the trade. And peak Hakeem with Clyde didn't put up a 21ppg 44% FG performance like underperfoming Shaq did to win a series.

He wouldn't have even got out the first rd in either 93-94-95 playing so poorly.

[jals]

I'm kind of surprised that it was this lopsided. I view the matchup as close, but quite frankly Shaq was better at offense by a fair margin and individual offense > individual defense in terms of singular impact. Hakeem is probably my favorite big ever to watch and I was no fan of Shaq. But if I had a draft pick I would take Shaq, I don't think there's a single player in the history of the NBA since I started watching (so ex Wilt, Russell) that could defend a motivated and in-shape Shaq individually.

[Nairobi]

ONE MVP (in a season in which MJ did not play...oh, and not coincidently, Hakeem eked out a ring.) ONE second place finish in the MVP balloting. TWO other Top-FOUR's. So, FOUR Top-4's in the MVP balloting, in his 18 seasons. Oh, and BTW, EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoff exits. How about Hakeem in his three Finals? He was NEVER the leading shooter in ANY of them. Hell, he wasn't even the leading shooter on his own team in ANY of them. He was only the FIFTH best shooter in his '86 Finals (and SIXTH if you include Walton and his .621 off the bench), at .479. He had a teammate who shot .588. Also, the "Dream" not only was outrebounded by his OPPOSING CENTER in TWO of them, he was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE in one, and was only the third best rebounder in one series, and the fourth best rebounder in the other Hakeem battled a starting HOF center in 35 of his 145 playoff games, including a 39 year old Kareem in six, against the same Kareem that in TEN STRAIGHT GAMES...AVERAGED 33 ppg on .630 shooting and hung three games of 40+ on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, including a 46 point explosion in only 37 minutes.

Uh excuse me, what sort of negative effect did MJ ever have on Hakeem's playing career? He led a team to a NBA Finals before MJ even led the Bulls to a winning record. Hakeem imho should've won the '93 NBA reg season MVP (which ironically he finished ahead of MJ that year in voting).

Yeah the '86 Finals against arguably the GOAT team, not having any teamate average more than 15ppg, a suspended PG and that series still managed to go 6 games.....because of Hakeem. Shaq never faced a Finals team like that. In '94 Hakeem becomes the only player in NBA history to lead a playoff title team in all 5 major statistical categories and you're fixated on shooting %.

This thread is about their PEAKS, not their careers. I guess your disdain at watching Hakeem hoist a Finals MVP at Shaq's expense forces you to stray off-topic. No shame in being lit up by Kareem, who is imo the GOAT C. 39 yr old Kareem was still better than any of those cupcakes peak Shaq faced h2h.

Look @ it this way, Shaq's peak = MDE. You have these debates that exist over "if you'd rather choose a prime Shaq or prime Jordan", even on this very site. I've never seen this argument bein' made for Hakeem, if u have, please direct me a link. And you already saw the h2h numbers I posted, an experienced and veteran O'Neal would've held his own just fine. Duncan was able to oust Lakeset in Timmy's 2nd year due in no small part to The Admiral, the only player I've seen that can effectively guard Diesel. And what would be the difference if O'Neal played on that SA team or NY team? Neither of the three in their primes had the luxury of havin' a teammate outshoot them every Finals, and outrebound in others. Wallace outrebounded him that year, it's cool, but I'm curious, who was the leading shooter that series? And who guarded this person the entire series? And this 'top center" you speak of was only considered to be a top 5 player only half of his career and was bounced EIGHT times in the 1st round.

He reached the Finals in '86, but again, had a dominant HOF's help in doin' so. He had more HOF's on his roster than his entire opposition in '95. They weren't called the "Paper Champions" for nothin' Peak, prime, career, Diesel got this

[Nairobi]

WAY better competition.

Overrated choke artist Patrick Ewing, and choke artist David Robinson. I'd go the same route, and say none of the teams he faced in his prime had a second option like Clyde.

Hakeem was more beneficial to Clyde.....he was fading in Portland prior to the trade. And peak Hakeem with Clyde didn't put up a 21ppg 44% FG performance like underperfoming Shaq did to win a series.

Oh, the desperation, singling out ONE series And you say I'm fixated on %'s, yet you cherry-pick a single series % yourself, watta hypocrite

[JordansBulls]

Overrated choke artist Patrick Ewing, and choke artist David Robinson. I'd go the same route, and say none of the teams he faced in his prime had a second option like Clyde.

Hakeem was more beneficial to Clyde.....he was fading in Portland prior to the trade. And peak Hakeem with Clyde didn't put up a 21ppg 44% FG performance like underperfoming Shaq did to win a series.

Oh, the desperation, singling out ONE series And you say I'm fixated on %'s, yet you cherry-pick a single series % yourself, watta hypocrite

Not to mention that Hakeem nearly cost his team a series by getting ejected in game 5 vs the Lakers. It was good Sampson came thru for them.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Look @ it this way, Shaq's peak = MDE. You have these debates that exist over "if you'd rather choose a prime Shaq or prime Jordan", even on this very site. I've never seen this argument bein' made for Hakeem, if u have, please direct me a link. And you already saw the h2h numbers I posted, an experienced and veteran O'Neal would've held his own just fine. Duncan was able to oust Lakeset in Timmy's 2nd year due in no small part to The Admiral, the only player I've seen that can effectively guard Diesel.

1) Again outside of RealGM and Shaq himself who exactly has appointed this guy MDE? Your he-said/she said is compared to MJ isn't proof of anything. Name a coach or player that's hailed Shaq the MDE? Oh yeah it never happened. Robert Horry had more success with Shaq than he did with Hakeem, played with both Centers at their zeniths and he considers Hakeem superior. John Salley who played with Shaq called Hakeem the greatest Center he ever played against, as did MJ. Shaq on the other hand........

2) Lol@ Spurs won in no small part due to the Admiral guarding Shaq. Post '96-97 injury DRob who was in a state of decline. Duncan was the main reason they won vs. LA plain and simple in '99 and '03. That sums up Shaq's playoff career......he only ever bullied one dimensional cupcakes like Smits, Sabonis, Vlade, Jason Collins. Hakeem won a Finals MVP vs. Shaq, Duncan outperformed/produced 99-03 Shaq in the playoffs. He was too lazy to step out of the paint and defend a Karl Malone pick n roll 2 years straight. None of those 3 found him to be quite dominating.

Whenever an opposing team had a interior superstar on top of their game that forced him to play defence, weren't afraid to drive the ball right at him, didn't cry to refs about his strength, draw him out of the paint. Other than Kobe having some monster series while he deferred in 01 & 02 he wasn't winning a damned thing. All these invincible performances came against limited opponents.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Overrated choke artist Patrick Ewing, and choke artist David Robinson. I'd go the same route, and say none of the teams he faced in his prime had a second option like Clyde.

Hakeem was more beneficial to Clyde.....he was fading in Portland prior to the trade. And peak Hakeem with Clyde didn't put up a 21ppg 44% FG performance like underperfoming Shaq did to win a series.

Oh, the desperation, singling out ONE series And you say I'm fixated on %'s, yet you cherry-pick a single series % yourself, watta hypocrite

If we're talking peaks, then Hakeem unlike Shaq didn't have a bad series. And didn't allow another superstar to outperform him by epic proportions a la Shaq 2002 WCSF over the course of a series. He couldn't closeout games. Didn't underperform in a Game 7 a la Shaq 2000 WCF either. Outscored by Duncan by nearly 8ppg in that series, outrebounded by Duncan by 6rpg, outblocked n outassisted too which included a monster 34pt. 25reb performance by TD whereas Shaq could only manage 21pts - 11rebs.

[RayBan-Sematra]

1) Again outside of RealGM and Shaq himself who exactly has appointed this guy MDE?

Umm... millions of people who watched Shaq in the 90's and the early 00's including countless players & coaches.
Just an example but I remember interviews from the Nets coach in the 02 Finals where he called Shaq the MDE and gave him many other high praises.
That is just one example out of many.

he only ever bullied one dimensional cupcakes like Smits, Sabonis, Vlade, Jason Collins.

Comments like this make you look like a Troll.

Shaq clearly got the better of Prime Hakeem in their overall matchups during the 90's (93-97) and in his 3rd year almost played Peak Hakeem to a wash in the Finals.
That is pretty incredible considering most people consider Hakeem's Peak to be Top 5'ish.

Shaq also clearly got the best of C's like Prime Ewing, Robinson and Mourning in their h2h matchups during the 90's.

Are those guys cupcake C's?

The only time Duncan ever legitimately outplayed Shaq was in 02 and Shaq was hobbled in that series after a nagging injury he had flared up on him badly.
In 99 Shaq was injured and Duncan had a vastly superior team with a Prime Robinson at his side.

In 01 Shaq clearly outplayed Duncan in the playoffs even with him still having an All-Star level Robinson at his side and in 04 Shaq thoroughly crushed Peak Duncan in the playoffs on the way to the Finals.
03 was a wash or maybe a slight edge to Duncan.

So really your view of Duncan "getting the better of Shaq" is pretty skewed and can be torn apart pretty easily.
Without Robinson at his side a well past Peak Shaq absolutely dominated Peak Duncan.

he wasn't winning a damned thing.

And yet he won 3 titles as the man which is better then anyone not named Russell, Jordan and arguably Duncan and putting bias or agendas aside he pretty clearly got the better of every HOF big he faced sans maybe Malone.

[DrazenForThree]

Peak Shaq has a case to be GOAT, peak Dream doesn't.

This. Peak shaq was the most dominant force in league history, and potentially the GOAT player.

hakeem is a top 5-10 peak, but not at shaqs level

[DrazenForThree]

I chose Hakeem, because he's a better defender and shooter, also because his go to move the "shake" seemed unstoppable.... Shaq still had an amazing 2001 season though, but it mostly consisted of dunks and alley oops in my eyes(just my opinion)....

thats a bad thing? the biggest sign of dominance is being able to get the easiest shot and finishing it at will and whenever you want.

shaq had a ton of dunks because no one could stop him from getting dunks.