Higher Trade Value: Monroe vs. Leonard

[Mykhyn]

The extra year and the fact that Leonard defends is enough to give him more current value. He also plays on offense too, unlike someone like Thabo. I don't think either have actual star potential though, most likely 3rd best on a title team, which is still a very good player.

This.

So you're saying he has no potential to improve? Because he was 3rd best player all year on a team that was seconds away from the title.

[Mykhyn]

Kawhi doesn't have a clear hole that says he cannot go and make his own offense in isolation, or that he just needs to stay a primarily spot up shooter. He has very good range and scores well in about every category he does. So, altogether would actually say that Kawhi looks to have a higher offensive ceiling than Monroe's whose game has a few clear holes on offense (away from the hoop).

Nobody is saying that he has a clear hole in his game that says he cannot make his own offense in isolation. I, for one, think his ball handling has improved by a considerable margin since in entrance into the league. But at this point in time, he's the fourth option behind Parker, Manu, and Duncan. Once you remove those guys from the equation, Kawhi's efficiency likely takes a very large hit. On the flip side, Monroe was option A in Detroit for the past two seasons and was already being keyed on, which means his development in that area has been more advanced than has Kawhi's. In addition to that, a lot of guys take a considerable dip in defensive metrics once they start exerting more energy on the offensive end, which is another concern as Leonard begins to take on an increased role.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20[/youtube]

Kawhi as #1 option when the big 3 sat. Thoroughly dominated Deng on both offense and defense.

[pacers33granger]

The extra year and the fact that Leonard defends is enough to give him more current value. He also plays on offense too, unlike someone like Thabo. I don't think either have actual star potential though, most likely 3rd best on a title team, which is still a very good player.

This.

So you're saying he has no potential to improve? Because he was 3rd best player all year on a team that was seconds away from the title.

I never said he wouldn't improve. I just don't think he's going to be an All Star outside of maybe a couple appearances. He looks like he's going to be what MKG's best case scenario was advertised as, a super role player. I know he's young, but I don't see him developing the type of game for a true 1st or 2nd option.

That team last year was also very deep, balanced, experienced, and extremely well coached. Green had an argument for 3rd best on that team too until he went cold in the last few. Also, their top 2 (Duncan and Parker) played incredible for the most part.

[skones]

Kawhi doesn't have a clear hole that says he cannot go and make his own offense in isolation, or that he just needs to stay a primarily spot up shooter. He has very good range and scores well in about every category he does. So, altogether would actually say that Kawhi looks to have a higher offensive ceiling than Monroe's whose game has a few clear holes on offense (away from the hoop).

Nobody is saying that he has a clear hole in his game that says he cannot make his own offense in isolation. I, for one, think his ball handling has improved by a considerable margin since in entrance into the league. But at this point in time, he's the fourth option behind Parker, Manu, and Duncan. Once you remove those guys from the equation, Kawhi's efficiency likely takes a very large hit. On the flip side, Monroe was option A in Detroit for the past two seasons and was already being keyed on, which means his development in that area has been more advanced than has Kawhi's. In addition to that, a lot of guys take a considerable dip in defensive metrics once they start exerting more energy on the offensive end, which is another concern as Leonard begins to take on an increased role.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20[/youtube]

Kawhi as #1 option when the big 3 sat. Thoroughly dominated Deng on both offense and defense.

Which proved zilch. It's a one game sample.....

[Blame Rasho]

I find it funny how some fans marginalize other players despite the logic that has been presented to them.

[sanitylaker]

Nobody is saying that he has a clear hole in his game that says he cannot make his own offense in isolation. I, for one, think his ball handling has improved by a considerable margin since in entrance into the league. But at this point in time, he's the fourth option behind Parker, Manu, and Duncan. Once you remove those guys from the equation, Kawhi's efficiency likely takes a very large hit. On the flip side, Monroe was option A in Detroit for the past two seasons and was already being keyed on, which means his development in that area has been more advanced than has Kawhi's. In addition to that, a lot of guys take a considerable dip in defensive metrics once they start exerting more energy on the offensive end, which is another concern as Leonard begins to take on an increased role.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20[/youtube]

Kawhi as #1 option when the big 3 sat. Thoroughly dominated Deng on both offense and defense.

Which proved zilch. It's a one game sample.....

15ppg/11rpg/2spg @ 58%TS as the 3rd option hitting big shots in Finals. That was not a one game sample. That was a 7-game series against Lebron and an elite defensive team.

Dude actually had a big role and delivered. I don't even know how people can question him after what he made in the Finals. Don't forget dude put those numbers as a sophomore while having to defend Lebron.

We should be more impressed with Monroe putting numbers in the regular season (16ppg on 13 shots per game @ 52%TS) ? A bellow average defensive center that couldn't even hit 1 bpg? Typical young player in a bad franchise that can put numbers when he doesn't have any pressure on him.

Sorry, but I am not impressed at all.

If I had to choose between Leonard and Monroe for LA, I'd choose Leonard quite easily.

[skones]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20[/youtube]

Kawhi as #1 option when the big 3 sat. Thoroughly dominated Deng on both offense and defense.

Which proved zilch. It's a one game sample.....

15ppg/11rpg/2spg @ 58%TS as the 3rd option hitting big shots in Finals. That was not a one game sample. That was a 7-game series against Lebron and an elite defensive team.

Dude actually had a big role and delivered. I don't even know how people can question him after what he made in the Finals. Don't forget dude put those numbers as a sophomore while having to defend Lebron.

We should be more impressed with Monroe putting numbers in the regular season (16ppg on 13 shots per game @ 52%TS) ? A bellow average defensive center that couldn't even hit 1 bpg? Typical young player in a bad franchise that can put numbers when he doesn't have any pressure on him.

Sorry, but I am not impressed at all.

If I had to choose between Leonard and Monroe for LA, I'd choose Leonard quite easily.

So your primary argument here is supporting a one game sample with an 7 game sample that has nothing to do with the point I made in the first place?

[sanitylaker]

Which proved zilch. It's a one game sample.....

15ppg/11rpg/2spg @ 58%TS as the 3rd option hitting big shots in Finals. That was not a one game sample. That was a 7-game series against Lebron and an elite defensive team.

Dude actually had a big role and delivered. I don't even know how people can question him after what he made in the Finals. Don't forget dude put those numbers as a sophomore while having to defend Lebron.

We should be more impressed with Monroe putting numbers in the regular season (16ppg on 13 shots per game @ 52%TS) ? A bellow average defensive center that couldn't even hit 1 bpg? Typical young player in a bad franchise that can put numbers when he doesn't have any pressure on him.

Sorry, but I am not impressed at all.

If I had to choose between Leonard and Monroe for LA, I'd choose Leonard quite easily.

So your primary argument here is supporting a one game sample with an 7 game sample that has nothing to do with the point I made in the first place?

Yeah because playing the Finals against Lebron in your sophomore season putting 15/11/2 is probably not a good sample as well .

Monroe's 16ppg on 13 shots while playing no defense in the regular season is much better I see

[Trader_Joe]

Just want to point out a couple things....

A seven game sample at the very end if the season against the best team and best player in the world is the biggest stage one can prove one's self on.

A 4 game sample is enough to win a series/the title.

The best teams in the league have dominant small forwards these day. LBJ in Miami, Durant in OKC, George in Indy, Melo in NY, Leonard is getting there in SA. Point is, I'm not sure he big over small rule still applies in a perimeter dominated game. Meanwhile some of the most talented offensive centers have yet to really win anything..Monroe, Lopez, Cousins..it is the two way ones like Noah, Hibbert, TD, M.Gasol, Chandler who have. I'll note I'm referring to Monroe as a center because I think that is his better position on offense and defense.

[skones]

Just want to point out a couple things....

A seven game sample at the very end if the season against the best team and best player in the world is the biggest stage one can prove one's self on.

A 4 game sample is enough to win a series/the title.

The best teams in the league have dominant small forwards these day. LBJ in Miami, Durant in OKC, George in Indy, Melo in NY, Leonard is getting there in SA. Point is, I'm not sure he big over small rule still applies in a perimeter dominated game. Meanwhile some of the most talented offensive centers have yet to really win anything..Monroe, Lopez, Cousins..it is the two way ones like Noah, Hibbert, TD, M.Gasol, Chandler who have. I'll note I'm referring to Monroe as a center because I think that is his better position on offense and defense.

I agree that his best position is Center. What I will also say is that a lot of centers don't fully grasp a lot of defensive principles until their age 25 season. Given Monroe's basketball IQ, I'm confident in saying that he'll become at least AVERAGE on the defensive end of the floor which ups his value by a considerable margin IMO. It's a pretty common trend in the NBA.

And I agree, the finals ARE a big stage to prove yourself on. HOWEVER when it's a 7 game sample, and the opposing defense is far more worried about Manu, Parker, and Duncan, the defense you're going to face throughout the series is going to be considerably different. It's not like Leonard was EVER the sole focus of the opposing defense. I think Leonard is getting vastly overrated because of his play in the finals.

After all, we're a few seconds away from talking about how Danny Green averaged 15.5 points per game in the finals.

[Trader_Joe]

Just want to point out a couple things....

A seven game sample at the very end if the season against the best team and best player in the world is the biggest stage one can prove one's self on.

A 4 game sample is enough to win a series/the title.

The best teams in the league have dominant small forwards these day. LBJ in Miami, Durant in OKC, George in Indy, Melo in NY, Leonard is getting there in SA. Point is, I'm not sure he big over small rule still applies in a perimeter dominated game. Meanwhile some of the most talented offensive centers have yet to really win anything..Monroe, Lopez, Cousins..it is the two way ones like Noah, Hibbert, TD, M.Gasol, Chandler who have. I'll note I'm referring to Monroe as a center because I think that is his better position on offense and defense.

I agree that his best position is Center. What I will also say is that a lot of centers don't fully grasp a lot of defensive principles until their age 25 season. Given Monroe's basketball IQ, I'm confident in saying that he'll become at least AVERAGE on the defensive end of the floor which ups his value by a considerable margin IMO. It's a pretty common trend in the NBA.

And I agree, the finals ARE a big stage to prove yourself on. HOWEVER when it's a 7 game sample, and the opposing defense is far more worried about Manu, Parker, and Duncan, the defense you're going to face throughout the series is going to be considerably different. It's not like Leonard was EVER the sole focus of the opposing defense. I think Leonard is getting vastly overrated because of his play in the finals.

After all, we're a few seconds away from talking about how Danny Green averaged 15.5 points per game in the finals.

Other than FG% and rebounding his playoff averages were not much different from his regular season which were still 50%+6rpg.
He also posted very similar stats to George the season before he broke out.

Overall, I've been a Monroe fan but I'm just not convinced we will see another major jump as his game was pretty NBA ready and he lacks the quickness and athleticism to be a anything more than an average defender and I worry playing out of position won't help. He also seems to be a player you have to pair with the proper front court mate while I like the fact Leonard is a player you can fit in to pretty much any lineup and see the benefit.

Also as I stated on page 1 center seems to be a much deeper position these days and the game dominated by explosive wing players.

[Durins Baynes]

Definitely Kawhi. Monroe is like Al Jefferson. He's tall, but he's not the sort of big you build around (those are rarer), and people confuse being tall with being someone you can build around.

I posted this on another board discussing the two, and it's just as relevant here:

This is Kawhi playing against the Bulls without any of the big 3. He scored 26 to lead them to an easy win. He scores barely any points in transition, and shows a good mid range game and handles. It's one game of course, and Kawhi needs to prove it for a season, but the idea that he has not shown these things is bizarre. There's a reason Pop is putting it out there that he's a future star, and others are starting to come to the same conclusion. Yes, he didn't average many assists, because of the way he was being utilised last year. The Spurs are a better, deeper team than the Pacers and don't need Kawhi to be 1st option (like George often needs to be), but that will gradually change (something Pop has also said). He still rarely gets let off the leash, but when he does things sure look good.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20[/youtube]

I think there's basically no question the Spurs wouldn't trade him for Monroe. Here's what Pop said about him in 2012:
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/20 ... the-spurs/

Question: What kind of season do you see Kawhi Leonard having next season? Also, where do you see him in five years?

GP: I think he’s going to be a star. And as time goes on, he’ll be the face of the Spurs I think. At both ends of the court, he is really a special player. And what makes me be so confident about him is that he wants it so badly. He wants to be a good player, I mean a great player. He comes early, he stays late, and he’s coachable, he’s just like a sponge. When you consider he’s only had one year of college and no training camp yet, you can see that he’s going to be something else

And again in 2013:
http://fansided.com/2013/06/23/gregg-po ... nio-spurs/

“He was unbelievable. That’s both in his poise, in his skill development, which, again, Chip and Chad get credit for, and his reaction to wins, his reaction to losses. The way he mingled with teammates, the way he learned from them. Unbelievably coachable. Hard worker. He’s going to be a future star, because he’s like a babe in the woods still.”

“I don’t even call plays for him and you see what he does out on the court,” Popovich said. “He’s just beginning to feel his way and he’ll be getting the ball more and more as time goes on.”

[hoophabit]

These are both very fine and different young players. Contract years, age? Even under the current CBA a team isn't going to worry about the former much if the player is one they really want. Age is always a consideration, but both are young and bigs often can play longer. People are going to come down on different sides of this issue and that's fine. I want to take issue with this idea that bigs are less important than they used to be. I don't think SA would have been in the finals if not for Duncan. Lebron is a big, just a small but incredibly talented one. Kind of like a super Charles Barkley. I don't know why there has been a shortage of quality young big men of late. Honestly, has the game changed so much that a young Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, etc. wouldn't run rampant?

[MrBigShot]

Definitely Kawhi. Monroe is like Al Jefferson. He's tall, but he's not the sort of big you build around (those are rarer), and people confuse being tall with being someone you can build around.

I posted this on another board discussing the two, and it's just as relevant here:

Good thing we aren't building around him then.

[Narf]

JJ Barea had a monster role in the playoffs for the Mavs. This is like drafting someone because they have a good NCAA tourney run, give me the whole picture not "what have you done for me lately".

That said, I like Leanoard and think he'll be an all star a couple years. I also think Monroe will. But I have to stress, there are not 30 decent centers in the league. Position matters, and having the #10 C is worth more than having the #10 SF IMPO.

[mcfly1204]

JJ Barea has a monster role in the Playoffs for the Mavs? I recall him being effective in the pick and roll, but you are being a bit loose with your wording.