The Tank Debate Thread

[Raps in 4]

Tank.

Tear down this roster now. The draft next year is too good to pass up.

[jvuc]

I don't necessarily agree that tank focus means Gay for Stuckey + Villa, you basically picked the absolute worst scenario and have it representing one of the options. But yes I want the tank focus, there should be no reason to "wait and see" with this current squad as the writing is obviously on the wall with a horrendous first half schedule + an attrocious coach leading the way, tearing this baby down right before the season starts will give equal competitive chance against the likes of Charlotte, Milwaukee et all.

The "wait and see" as you put it, is not about how the team performs but awaiting a better option then Stuckey + Villa for Gay, at least that is my interpretation.

If there is a better option then Stuckey+Villa for Gay, then I would see Masai taking that route. He hasn't turned down anything of value that I'm aware of.

People seem to live in a fantasy that Masai is turning down picks/good players for the raptors. WHere? Or that he should some how force other teams to trade their unprotected first round pick for Gay. But that type of trade is not around - yet. And so the choice is be patience, or tear down by giving players away like Gay for Stuckey+Villa. Anything else is more of this "fantasy" rebuild. Sure I want unprotected picks for Gay and I want a new car too but reality gets in the way.

[dTox]

I don't necessarily agree that tank focus means Gay for Stuckey + Villa, you basically picked the absolute worst scenario and have it representing one of the options. But yes I want the tank focus, there should be no reason to "wait and see" with this current squad as the writing is obviously on the wall with a horrendous first half schedule + an attrocious coach leading the way, tearing this baby down right before the season starts will give equal competitive chance against the likes of Charlotte, Milwaukee et all.

The "wait and see" as you put it, is not about how the team performs but awaiting a better option then Stuckey + Villa for Gay, at least that is my interpretation.

If there is a better option then Stuckey+Villa for Gay, then I would see Masai taking that route. He hasn't turned down anything of value that I'm aware of.

People seem to live in a fantasy that Masai is turning down picks/good players for the raptors. WHere? Or that he should some how force other teams to trade their unprotected first round pick for Gay. But that type of trade is not around - yet. And so the choice is be patience, or tear down by giving players away like Gay for Stuckey+Villa. Anything else is more of this "fantasy" rebuild. Sure I want unprotected picks for Gay and I want a new car too but reality gets in the way.

Wait and see approach, as directly mentioned by Masai is evaluating the team as the season progresses, basically if they do well; he will move forward witht his current team and vice versa. Your interpretation of the wait and see approach and the tare down approach are not mutually exclusive

[The_Hater]

A lot of these directions are just one and the same.

There's really only 3 immediate directions:

Tear it down and start over now. Part of the tank philosophy.

Continue on with this roster for part of the season to either see if it's worth keeping it together.

Play out the season and re-evaluate the roster again next summer.

[dTox]

A lot of these directions are just one and the same.

There's really only 3 immediate directions:

Tear it down and start over now. Part of the tank philosophy.

Continue on with this roster for part of the season to either see if it's worth keeping it together.

Play out the season and re-evaluate the roster again next summer.

bingo

[MEDIC]

All I really care about is getting excellent value for the assets that we have. If the return is useful draft picks or if it's an allstar level player, I'm totally good with it.

If it's a quick process to becoming a contender, or a slow/ steady process, I'm fine with it. Just as long as Masai doesn't give away players for nothing, get screwed over in trades, or sign guys to ridiculous contracts, I'm cool.

Signing role players to long term deals is a stupid move for this team. You are either getting an allstar or getting high end draft picks. Nothing in between.

If you make schrewd moves bit by bit, things pay off in the long term.

[RealRapsFan]

Tanking means give away players.

'Long term' is patience, but may mean tanking, or accelerated rebuild or whatever. Who knows! It just means something good thats for sure.

The draft is magic

[jvuc]

I don't necessarily agree that tank focus means Gay for Stuckey + Villa, you basically picked the absolute worst scenario and have it representing one of the options. But yes I want the tank focus, there should be no reason to "wait and see" with this current squad as the writing is obviously on the wall with a horrendous first half schedule + an attrocious coach leading the way, tearing this baby down right before the season starts will give equal competitive chance against the likes of Charlotte, Milwaukee et all.

The "wait and see" as you put it, is not about how the team performs but awaiting a better option then Stuckey + Villa for Gay, at least that is my interpretation.

If there is a better option then Stuckey+Villa for Gay, then I would see Masai taking that route. He hasn't turned down anything of value that I'm aware of.

People seem to live in a fantasy that Masai is turning down picks/good players for the raptors. WHere? Or that he should some how force other teams to trade their unprotected first round pick for Gay. But that type of trade is not around - yet. And so the choice is be patience, or tear down by giving players away like Gay for Stuckey+Villa. Anything else is more of this "fantasy" rebuild. Sure I want unprotected picks for Gay and I want a new car too but reality gets in the way.

Wait and see approach, as directly mentioned by Masai is evaluating the team as the season progresses, basically if they do well; he will move forward witht his current team and vice versa. Your interpretation of the wait and see approach and the tare down approach are not mutually exclusive

That is a bit clearer and so I see a few approaches which people trivialize
1. Tank by giving away players away. I think tankers don't want this (Stucky/villa trade).
2. "Patient Tank" wait for better value trades to support the tank. I think most tankers support this.
3. "Patient Rebuild" wait for trades to tank or rebuild trades (i.e harden trade). Same as 2 but more flexible.
4. "Wait and See" if the team is playoff worthy then choose to tank or go for the playoffs later.

Masai has said he doesn't want to just make the playoffs, instead he wants to build a championship team and that rules out #4. The poll was taken down but the options seems to be between 2 and 3 and both involve patience.

[BLKMASS]

It depends how the season is going really. If they're underpeforming once again, losing to junk teams early on, tank it then. If it's actually looking like they can make the playoffs, which is possible, you want to compete.

[lucky777s]

The Rudy Gay situation:

Best wing player we have had in long, long time. Very talented guy. Will never reach full potential (just like 90% of players). Overpaid, but any team that drafted him would have paid same contract. Expiring this year or next depending on opt out.

Question is: do the Raps see Rudy Gay as a core piece for the next 4-5 years at a price of 14 mill per year minimum? He will get at least that.

If so, you don't consider moving him at all.

If not, you may as well trade him for Villy/Stucky today and see what you have without him and get a better pick. Just his expiring takes you from the Tax line to below the salary cap line. Unlikely you get anywhere near the same talent back in trade since he is a FA this summer. Nobody is giving up a core piece for him. But you might get a young guy who can't get PT on his team in addition to expirings. Or maybe a late first.

So if you decide Gay is not a core piece for the Raps you have to determine how much extra value you can really get by waiting versus how many lotto balls keeping him may cost the team in a loaded draft.

[jvuc]

The Rudy Gay situation:

Best wing player we have had in long, long time. Very talented guy. Will never reach full potential (just like 90% of players). Overpaid, but any team that drafted him would have paid same contract. Expiring this year or next depending on opt out.

Question is: do the Raps see Rudy Gay as a core piece for the next 4-5 years at a price of 14 mill per year minimum? He will get at least that.

If so, you don't consider moving him at all.

If not, you may as well trade him for Villy/Stucky today and see what you have without him and get a better pick. Just his expiring takes you from the Tax line to below the salary cap line. Unlikely you get anywhere near the same talent back in trade since he is a FA this summer. Nobody is giving up a core piece for him. But you might get a young guy who can't get PT on his team in addition to expirings. Or maybe a late first.

So if you decide Gay is not a core piece for the Raps you have to determine how much extra value you can really get by waiting versus how many lotto balls keeping him may cost the team in a loaded draft.

It seems the tankers want their cake and to eat it too. That is, they want to raptors to immediately tank but they somehow want Masai to trade Gay for something more then expiring. The problem is the second option in terms receiving something of value back for gay, requires a bit of "patience" to await for a trade that makes sense.

[SkywalkerAC]

I can see people not wanting this iteration of the team to do well, it is Colangelo's starting lineup at the end of the day. Add the 2014 draft-factor and you've got a movement on your hands.

I just don't see anything to take qualms with in Masai's strategy so far. You give the old guard the tough opening schedule and win or lose, your big guns - Lowry, Gay, Demar, Amir, Jonas - are going to be producing at a high level. This isn't Andrea we're talking about here. Back them up with capable youngsters and go to work.

If all the "expert" are correct, this team doesn't have a chance over the first 35 games. The tank isn't in jeopardy with unless we come out blazing on the road. Either way, Casey is a lame duck. He's going to ride the core and I think it's a good bet their value creeps up as they hit the floor for what could be their final hurrah.

Call me crazy but I look forward to it. It's sets up terrific drama but in a win-win fashion. It's great if they come out with a 10-25 stinker but imagine if our young team scraps it's way to an impressive 18-17 start over those 35 games, that somehow our efficiency took a gigantic leap upwards. Suddenly the valuations for our team overall and our players in particular are in a different stratosphere and Ujiri is now wheeling and dealing hot commodities.

Now, to some that scenario might be a living nightmare, but take solace in that for one, it's reasonably unlikely and secondly, it would be pretty f---ing awesome to come out of the gates strong for once, with a better team than any of the Colangelo era.

Masai has set this team up to fail. If they don't, it will be a pleasant, and valuable, surprise.

[Tofubeque]

Call me crazy but I look forward to it. It's sets up terrific drama but in a win-win fashion. It's great if they come out with a 10-25 stinker but imagine if our young team scraps it's way to an impressive 18-17 start over those 35 games, that somehow our efficiency took a gigantic leap upwards. Suddenly the valuations for our team overall and our players in particular are in a different stratosphere and Ujiri is now wheeling and dealing hot commodities.

I think we're overestimating how much a .500 start would improve our roster value. GMs are not that naive. Derozan and Gay could come out with hot shooting this year, but it wouldn't wash away their bad contracts or entire careers of inefficient basketball.

Further, I'm still not convinced Masai would start wheeling and dealing a 1st-time playoff roster. He probably thinks the values of his assets would continue to appreciate after a 18-17 start. The draft would hardly be on his radar.

So I see it more like a no-win situation. Few teams tank successfully after going .500 over a span of 35 games. We'd probably be looking at a 8-14 pick even if Masai did blow it up. And if he didn't, we'd be stuck with Derozan and Gay after they return to their career averages.

[raptorscam]

Who Cares Focus: This franchise in a big market dominated league and will never amount to more then treadmill team and so I prefer to more generally complain.

Toronto is a big market, much bigger than OKC, Memphis, Indiana, San Antonio, etc... It has been a franchise with terrible management from the get-go and now has hopefully turned the corner on that. The players will come, the franchise just needs to show it is legit and that this is a good place to play from the top down and I've never been more confident that will happen. Obviously a top talent in the 2014 draft would be great but we've already seen the big shift this team needed with the front office moves this offseason. Regardless of who we land next year (unless it is a megastar but I don't think the Raps will be bad enough) people are gonna look back at the 2013 offseason as the turning point for this franchise.

[CoachJReturns]

If there is one year to tank, this is it.

Period.


That's why pro-tankers are pro-tankers. Wiggins. Parker. Randle. Harrison. Gordon. Smart

Raptors aren't title contenders and barely playoff contenders. No point to contend.

You're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on the Raps board. Never condescending or defensive. You just make the rational points and leave it at that. Good job man.

[Reg00]

If there is one year to tank, this is it.

Period.


That's why pro-tankers are pro-tankers. Wiggins. Parker. Randle. Harrison. Gordon. Smart

Raptors aren't title contenders and barely playoff contenders. No point to contend.

You're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on the Raps board. Never condescending or defensive. You just make the rational points and leave it at that. Good job man.

I feel you guys have a "And1" deal going on or something....

...kidding.