This article is spot on analyzing the Nuggets

[Mac1958]

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Random "thoughts"...

... I agree that Karl had to go. He's obviously a very good coach, but his history/track record indicates that he's just not the guy to get a team past the first round of the playoffs. "Very good" just isn't good enough if you're serious about contending. Time to move on...

... It was a relief to see the Mozgov signing. He's a good backup who can still improve, and we were looking mighty thin at the 5 if he didn't return. Ya can't complain about <$5 million a year for a competent 7-footer, not as the league stands right now...

... I'll remain in the minority and continue to say that Faried is not, and probably will not be, an upper-echelon starting 4. He brings two (2) things: Energy and rebounds. What he does not bring is middle-clogging bulk and strength, strong man defense or anything resembling a mid-range offensive game or dynamic block moves. Ya gotta love the guy, but I'd much rather see the team take advantage of his current trade value and upgrade the 4 (full disclosure, I'm a defense-first guy)...

... The change/loss that bothers me the most this off-season was Ujiri. Holy crap, it's not like the front office was dealing with a salary cap, and this guy is clearly one of the (if not THE) most dynamic and able GM's in the league. And I have to wonder if Iggy would have stayed had the team kept Ujiri...

... I guess you have to love Robinson, but really, how many minutes can the Nugs get away with playing Nate and Lawson at the same time? I can see it working against teams like Dallas (Calderon/Ellis, yikes), but I hope Shaw can find a way to make this work.

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[Teens On Acid]

That article is bs and no amount of analysis can be made until this team actually plays a few weeks worth of meaningful basketball under coach Shaw

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[ujirifan]

That article is bs and no amount of analysis can be made until this team actually plays a few weeks worth of meaningful basketball under coach Shaw

Sorry but your comment is naïve, to be charitable.

It CAN be "analyzed" right now, that Iggy was a much better defender than any of the guards - Foye, Nate, Green - who have been picked up AND the best defender on the team.

It can also be "analyzed" that Ty and Nate, who played a combined 65 MPG at PG for their teams last year - will, if they are on the court at the same time, be even worse defensively than last year's combination of Ty and Miller AND that if they don't play together, only one of two things can happen: either Ty or Nate sees noticeably reduced PT, which will make for one of them being an unhappy camper.

[Teens On Acid]

lies. you can't analyse sh*t right now. it's all speculation without seeing the team play. that's it. it's reality. get your head out of your ass and follow your namesake to the Toronto board, you're an unnecessary voice here.

[scottcarman]

lies. you can't analyse sh*t right now. it's all speculation without seeing the team play. that's it. it's reality. get your head out of your ass and follow your namesake to the Toronto board, you're an unnecessary voice here.

Booo..... I love this new guy and agree with him on many points. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that you don't consider their opinion.

[ujirifan]

lies. you can't analyse sh*t right now. it's all speculation without seeing the team play. that's it. it's reality. get your head out of your ass and follow your namesake to the Toronto board, you're an unnecessary voice here.
User avatar
KidNine Bench Warmer

Sorry, Kid but this response is pathetic. You can say, "lies" all you want but that is not, in any way, a refutation of the points I made in responding to your first post.

If you are not knowledgeable enough to understand that, as of this moment, the Nugz backcourt defense is worse than last year, you should try "analyzing" a less complicated sport. Maybe, curling.

[The Rebel]

I decided to just stay out of the argument a few days ago, but this is getting ridiculous.

Our backcourt defense lost some talent, but George Karl's whole system led to wide open 3s, that is a fact and something his teams have always had trouble defending. Does a system change negate the backcourt problem? Probably not, but having players actually defend their guys as opposed to switching and all collapsing on the paint every play should help mitigate it.

The loss of Ujiri hurt, anybody saying it doesn't is lying, however if a guys contract is up, he is allowed to leave, he wanted to go, and as a long time Nuggets fan I would prefer to have people that want to be in Denver.

Karl needed to be fired, he should have been fired in 2008, Chauncey saved his job and Karl has acknowledged that. The run in 2009 and then Karl's battle with cancer and the Melodrama bought karl more time, but the fact is he did nothing worthwhile in his time. Last years team was built specifically for his system and wants, the fact that he failed with it shows just how overrated he has become. He sure seems to be one of those that the absence makes fonder types, most did not like him a year ago, he cannot seem to find a job, yet now he is the best coach ever.

Which reminds of Igoudala, man what the hell am I missing? The guy played like crap for the 1st 3 months of the season, finally getting around to playing well in February. For a supposed all star the guy looked terrible, sure the defense was slightly better, but for the most part it was negated through those months by how bad his offense was. Yes he played great for a few weeks to end the season, and he also was great in the playoffs, but the Nuggets won plenty of games while he played like crap, and the difference he made in the playoffs was not enough to overcome a bad system and lack of shooters.

Which brings me to this whole free throw shooting joke, and it is a joke. .7 points per game is not a huge loss, especially when you consider that the difference in Fournier, Hamilton, and Foye getting more 3 point shots. If you just give Foye the same amount of 3s as Igoudala got last year, and Foye hits at the same rate as he did last year, he makes up for that difference in scoring, and that is not even discussing the lane being more open for Lawson, Galinari, McGee, Faried, and now Nate Robinson to have actually drive the lane.

Add in that one of the biggest weaknesses the Nuggets have long had on defense has been addressed, by trading a decent starting center for an elite pick and roll defender.

Also you are still assuming the Nuggets continue to use a drive and kick offense, fact is that is a horrible offense when your coach refuses to play 2 of your 4 best outside shooters, and 1 of the other 2 was hurt most of the season. Fact is I expect some kind of motion offense, with guys actually moving without the ball to get open, and I also expect them to make teams work while they are on defense which believe it or not actually helps when you are on defense.

to top it off, saying oh no the Nuggets lost Ujiri and Igoudala and fired Karl so they are done forever, that is the laziest analysis I have seen. Fact is the Nuggets still have their core together, they were also a 50 win team when most of their key players were younger before they ever traded for Igoudala. Why not wait until you can truly analyze this team and their moves, you know when you actually can see the system they are going to use, and the actual team they are taking into the season, as opposed to writing them off 3 weeks into the offseason.

[Teens On Acid]

Ujirifan, There's no point arguing speculation. You can not in all seriousness compare our current lineup to last season without actually having seen them play. Which you haven't. So all you have is speculation. No facts. All fantasy.

Come back at me in December when you have something substantial and I might be just take you seriously enough to present an argument or even agree. Until then you're a clown.

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[scottcarman]

I decided to just stay out of the argument a few days ago, but this is getting ridiculous.

Our backcourt defense lost some talent, but George Karl's whole system led to wide open 3s, that is a fact and something his teams have always had trouble defending. Does a system change negate the backcourt problem? Probably not, but having players actually defend their guys as opposed to switching and all collapsing on the paint every play should help mitigate it.

Everyone thinks they are a basketball genius. Karl could possibly end up with the most wins ever. Just last season he got the record for most wins in a season, and most consecutive wins. He also was voted as coach of the year. Objectively, I think I would trust Karl's judgement then Shaw, who was rejected to even become a coach over and over again.

The loss of Ujiri hurt, anybody saying it doesn't is lying, however if a guys contract is up, he is allowed to leave, he wanted to go, and as a long time Nuggets fan I would prefer to have people that want to be in Denver.

Karl needed to be fired, he should have been fired in 2008, Chauncey saved his job and Karl has acknowledged that. The run in 2009 and then Karl's battle with cancer and the Melodrama bought karl more time, but the fact is he did nothing worthwhile in his time. Last years team was built specifically for his system and wants, the fact that he failed with it shows just how overrated he has become. He sure seems to be one of those that the absence makes fonder types, most did not like him a year ago, he cannot seem to find a job, yet now he is the best coach ever.

Karl was never a favorite to win, except for maybe last year. He has only had a short time with the current roster since the Melo trade and made much more progress then anyone expected. It seems very impatient to give up on him with this roster at this time. I think it's crazy that we had the 3rd or 4th youngest team in the league, won 57 games, had nearly everyone on contract, had the coach of the year, the executive of the year, and then decided to take a step back and develop?

Ujiri left because JK is an egomaniac and he could see that Karl and his personnel decisions were going to be dominated by JK. Iggy saw it as well. I think JK chased off Ujiri/Karl and basically took the Nuggets out of consideration for Iggy. [/quote]

[ujirifan]

I have to say, rebel, that there is not all that much in your post that is defensible.

While making it a priority to cover the 3 points shooters - of teams who have a number of solid ones - can help the situation, the fact is that the backcourt is undeniably smaller and less capable defensively.

On that topic , I'd like to hear either you or corona give your opinion on just what - with AND without Miller still on the team - the backcourt minutes might look like that makes any sense, specifically with reference to where Nate finds minutes with a healthy Ty. And, if you think he should get many minutes in tandem with Ty, if you don't acknowledge how incredibly "crappy" - to use a term of yours - that defensive pairing would be, is all too disingenuous.

You are correct in believing there is no point in wasting time arguing about Karl, pro or con. I will just say that ScottC is spot on in pointing out that after a 57 win season with - minus Miller - THE YOUNGEST team in the league, there was NO valid reason - money and KK wanting total control do not qualify - not to give him next year to see whether he could take them the next step.

As for Iggy, your "total crap for the first 3 months" is exactly that, total crap. While his scoring might have come a bit close to that description, his overall play was far, far from it.

[corona]

Karl was never a favorite to win, except for maybe last year. He has only had a short time with the current roster since the Melo trade and made much more progress then anyone expected. It seems very impatient to give up on him with this roster at this time. I think it's crazy that we had the 3rd or 4th youngest team in the league, won 57 games, had nearly everyone on contract, had the coach of the year, the executive of the year, and then decided to take a step back and develop?

Ujiri left because JK is an egomaniac and he could see that Karl and his personnel decisions were going to be dominated by JK. Iggy saw it as well. I think JK chased off Ujiri/Karl and basically took the Nuggets out of consideration for Iggy.

for some reason you have this deluded idea that if kroenke hadn't done anything.....everything would be the same as last season, karl would continue on, everyone would respect him greatly despite being on a 1 year contract....we'd win another 55+ games and somehow achieve greatness in the playoffs with the same strategy as before, same lack of 3 point shooters, same lack of simple in-series adjustments that have failed us over and over.

masai wanted to go back to toronto. by all accounts he told jk not to match the offer....and it was a high one that small market teams generally can't afford.

iguodala left money on the table to leave. keeping karl would not have changed his mind. by his own words, the coach and the culture of the warriors are what persuaded him to go there. karl's obviously not religious, and doesn't give disney-esque lockerroom speeches to inspire his guys or try to instill more confidence or faith. i see no reason why keeping karl would have impacted the iguodala move....that's 100% speculation on your part with no evidence of any kind to back it up.

so the baseline you're actually working off going into the 13-14 season is losing ujiri, and losing iguodala. and you still think karl would have won a bunch of games and had any sort of success?

and karl had plenty of seasons where he should have....
a) won the playoff series
b) been seeded higher in the first place
c) at least won more than 1 game in the series

iverson/jr smith/melo/kmart/camby got swept by LA. he showed he can't adapt and manage star laden teams
then they gave him a well rounded team with great depth and team play suited just for him in 12-13, and he showed he can't win with that either....got beat by a rookie coach and a team thats only legit strength was the 3 point line.
08-09... should have beaten LA in the WCFs if he had any idea of how to draw up an inbounds play. and had not had anthony carter in for big minutes, and at key moments in each game.
05-06 they underachieved in the regular season, and then he had a feud with kenyon martin in the playoffs

On that topic , I'd like to hear either you or corona give your opinion on just what - with AND without Miller still on the team - the backcourt minutes might look like that makes any sense, specifically with reference to where Nate finds minutes with a healthy Ty. And, if you think he should get many minutes in tandem with Ty, if you don't acknowledge how incredibly "crappy" - to use a term of yours - that defensive pairing would be, is all too disingenuous.

i fully expect miller to be traded by training camp, or shortly into the season. no point in arguing theoreticals that in all likelihood won't happen.

so...ty gets 34 minutes, like usual.
nate gets 14 to backup ty. and between 0 and 6 minutes depending on game situations/matchups paired with lawson against second string sg's. if shaw's really concerned about matchups and wants to get them more minutes together....he can implement a 2-3 zone so neither ends up getting isolated in the low post or exploited defensively.

and its perfectly fine with me if nate robinson only backs up ty lawson and they don't play together at all. if he becomes a problem in the lockerroom, then he's on a very tradeable contract. again....you have it in your head that he HAS to play 29mpg because he did once with the knicks when they were terrible. that doesn't have to be the case. he had a season in boston where he only played 15. another where he played 18. the only reason he played 25 last year was because the bulls were down a 38mpg all-star PG. if he thought when he signed in denver that he'd play 25-30mpg, 15 of which would be with a 5'11pg....he's absolutely crazy.

You are correct in believing there is no point in wasting time arguing about Karl, pro or con. I will just say that ScottC is spot on in pointing out that after a 57 win season with - minus Miller - THE YOUNGEST team in the league, there was NO valid reason - money and KK wanting total control do not qualify - not to give him next year to see whether he could take them the next step.

i've said it like 8 times...
he would have been a lame duck coach. even karl admitted to meeting with josh kroenke days before the firing and saying that he didn't like being on a 1 year contract because it gave him less control over the players. he said if it had to be done....he would do it, but he preferred getting some type of extension so the management would look like they had faith in karl, and in turn the players would be forced to also have faith that he was truly the leader of the team.

giving him an extension would have been a far worse decision than firing him. and firing him weeks or months into the season if it didn't start out well would have also been bad....given that the coaching pool would be more depleted, and that coach would have to implement his new systems in the middle of a season.

not to mention him being a career playoff loser is reason enough.

[SF_Warriors]

To me, the nugget's biggest weakness is their lack of true go-to scoring.

Lawson is not a guy you want to be the main scorer, and neither is gallo.
In the playoffs, AI was the go to guy, and that does not translate to winning bball.

their front court offense with hickson is an improvement, but that front court is not scaring anybody.

[The Rebel]

I have to say, rebel, that there is not all that much in your post that is defensible.

While making it a priority to cover the 3 points shooters - of teams who have a number of solid ones - can help the situation, the fact is that the backcourt is undeniably smaller and less capable defensively.

On that topic , I'd like to hear either you or corona give your opinion on just what - with AND without Miller still on the team - the backcourt minutes might look like that makes any sense, specifically with reference to where Nate finds minutes with a healthy Ty. And, if you think he should get many minutes in tandem with Ty, if you don't acknowledge how incredibly "crappy" - to use a term of yours - that defensive pairing would be, is all too disingenuous.

You are correct in believing there is no point in wasting time arguing about Karl, pro or con. I will just say that ScottC is spot on in pointing out that after a 57 win season with - minus Miller - THE YOUNGEST team in the league, there was NO valid reason - money and KK wanting total control do not qualify - not to give him next year to see whether he could take them the next step.

As for Iggy, your "total crap for the first 3 months" is exactly that, total crap. While his scoring might have come a bit close to that description, his overall play was far, far from it.

If it is so indefensible, then please point out where I am way off, and provide some kind of backing instead of spouting off the same crap repeatedly.

[ujirifan]

If it is so indefensible, then please point out where I am way off, and provide some kind of backing instead of spouting off the same crap repeatedly.

Sorry, reb, but you are the one who needs to justify the statement that Iggy's play for the first 3 months - other than scoring - was total crap. That is one comment that is indefensible.

Anyone who actually watched the Nuggets all year as I - and I assume, you - did, who thinks any other aspect of his game, i.e., ball handling, assists, rebounds, steals, D, were crap the first 3 months or for any significant stretch of the season, has some kind of irrational bias against him.

[DaFan334]

A couple stats to point out for you. Iguadala had his worst Assist to Turnover Ratio and Assist percentage in the last 4 years last year. He posted the worst turnover percentage in the last 6 years while having his second lowest usage rate in the same span. He also posted a career low in rebounds per game with his rebounding rate was the lowest it has been in the last 6 years. Overall, his Win Share was the lowest of his entire career.

Including his shooting, proof of his bad year is rather evident when you look at his 7 year low PER of 15.2 and career low True Shooting and Free Throw Percentages. He clearly had one of his worst years statistically as a pro, which isn't what you are looking for going into your 30s, when so much of your game still relies on athletic ability. While it was still a fairly solid year, it did not live up to expectations based on past success.

[ujirifan]

A couple stats to point out for you. Iguadala had his worst Assist to Turnover Ratio and Assist percentage in the last 4 years last year. He posted the worst turnover percentage in the last 6 years while having his second lowest usage rate in the same span. He also posted a career low in rebounds per game with his rebounding rate was the lowest it has been in the last 6 years. Overall, his Win Share was the lowest of his entire career.

SERIOUSLY??

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... e-iguodala

Looking at his career stats, much of what you say may be accurate.......and largely, meaningless.

One easy example is APG. His assists last year were down from his best years but just look at his last year in Philly when he had 5.5 to lead his team. The stats page for that year lists Jrue Holiday as the only PG on the team and he averaged just 4.5 APG. Meanwhile, Ty and Miller combined for 12.8 APG at the PG position and Iggy still managed 5.4.

The same is true regarding rebounding. Most of his years in Philly, the style they played and the personnel they had required him to do more rebounding than he was expected to do last year in Denver.

Even his .317 3 PT shooting last year was pretty close to his career average if you take away the single anomaly last year in Philly when he shot .394.

He has always been a player who tried to do whatever was deemed necessary and, as far as I'm concerned, the Denver "fans" who do not appreciate his game in, game out effort last year don't have a clue.

[Teens On Acid]

i don't really see the point in discussing the merits of a player no longer on our team. I'm sure the Warriors board is a better place for that, head on over there ujirifan, you're unpleasant noise.

[ujirifan]

[quote][/quote]i don't really see the point in discussing the merits of a player no longer on our team. I'm sure the Warriors board is a better place for that, head on over there ujirifan, you're unpleasant noise.


Hmmm.

And just why do you imagine - that is, assuming you actually have an imagination - I would take your advice?

On anything??

[MidMountain]

Since when did this become the forum for trading childish insults? I thought this was a place for discussing basketball in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.