Peaks - Shaq vs. Hakeem

[DrazenForThree]

My MDE peaks:
1. MJ 90 or 91
2.Wilt 67
3. Shaq 00 and Lebron 13
4 Hakeem 93

hakeem wasnt even the most dominant player in the elague in '93, let alone ever. barkleys impact in 93 was FAR greater.

agreed and have been saying this forever. i realize stats are a huge part of analyzing things, but people take it to far and lean on it 100%. it was very clear barkley was the better and more dominant player in 1993. 93 barkley had one of the 3 most dominant seasons as far as impact in the 35+ years ive been watching.

[RayBan-Sematra]

thats a bad thing? the biggest sign of dominance is being able to get the easiest shot and finishing it at will and whenever you want.

While I don't disagree just being a physical freak does not make a dominant player.
Otherwise Javall Mcgee would be owning the league right now.

Shaq had incredible footwork, amazing ball handling ability, great hands, great court awareness and excellent passing ability to go along with spin moves, numerous fakes, drop steps, jump hooks and more.

Even though he was a "power player" he was still incredibly skilled.
One of the most skilled post players ever.
People just assume because he played a power game and didn't have a strong perimeter shot that he wasn't skillful and that is complete bull.

The only player today that has a post game that reminds me of Shaq's is probably Duncan.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Peak Shaq has a case to be GOAT, peak Dream doesn't.

This. Peak shaq was the most dominant force in league history, and potentially the GOAT player.

hakeem is a top 5-10 peak, but not at shaqs level

Tim Duncan was outperforming him in the playoffs during this span and yet Shaq's the most dominant force in league history?

I guess '99 doesn't count. Oh wait wasn't Duncan less experienced than Shaq was in '95 when he was outplayed by Hakeem, he surely should've lost and been outperformed by MDE based on experience factor right?

Oh wait that didn't happen.

[DrazenForThree]

While I don't disagree just being a physical freak does not make a dominant player.
Otherwise Javall Mcgee would be owning the league right now.

i dont see the comparison, and maybe you misunderstood me....

Javalee mcgee cant just go and dunk whenever he wants. shaq had so many dunks, cause he could get to the rim and throw it down basially at will. i wasnt saying thats all shaq could do, the point was more why would he do something else. he was obviously insanely skilled and not just some stromile swift kinda guy.

its an argument i see alot though. player A is better then player B because he can do so many different things well. its kind of irrelevant. its not about how many different things you can do, its about how impactful you are. jason kidd had triple double left and right and did tons of things well and was super versatile. shaqs lakers swept us because shaq was so dominant and what he did, even if it was fewer things, it didnt matter.

id rather do 1 thing well that no one can stop them do 5 things well that can be slowed down

[DrazenForThree]

Peak Shaq has a case to be GOAT, peak Dream doesn't.

This. Peak shaq was the most dominant force in league history, and potentially the GOAT player.

hakeem is a top 5-10 peak, but not at shaqs level

Tim Duncan was outperforming him in the playoffs during this span and yet Shaq's the most dominant force in league history?

I guess '99 doesn't count. Oh wait wasn't Duncan less experienced than Shaq was in '95 when he was outplayed by Hakeem, he surely should've lost and been outperformed by MDE based on experience factor right?

Oh wait that didn't happen.

duncan wasnt more dominant during shaqs peak. in fact, not close. you need to stop looking through the microscope and see the forest from the trees. its not just about a small sample of 1 year in 1 playoff run

[RayBan-Sematra]

Tim Duncan was outperforming him in the playoffs during this span and yet Shaq's the most dominant force in league history?

#1. Since when do we judge players based purely on h2h matchups?
You don't even need me to tell you how flawed that argument is.

#2. Shaq's Peak was from 00-02.
In 01 a healthy Shaq easily outplayed Duncan despite him having an enormous advantage called All-Star Robinson.
In 02 a basically Peak Duncan outplayed a severely hobbled Shaq.

Had injuries not occurred and they met in 00 I assume Shaq (who was healthy during the whole playoffs) would have gotten the better of Duncan as he did in 01.

So really... saying "Duncan outplayed him during his Peak" isn't something I would agree with.

I guess '99 doesn't count.

99 was one of Shaq's worst years.
He was legitimately injured that year. Plus Duncan had a Prime Robinson at his side and a much better team.

I think it is unfair given the above circumstances to use that against Shaq in these h2h comparisons.

Look at it this way.
The 3 times Duncan met a healthy Shaq in the playoffs (01, 03, 04) he got outplayed twice (01, 04) and at best only barely managed to outplay him in the other meeting (03).

Also there is no shame is getting outplayed by Tim Duncan who I currently have as one of the six greatest players of All-Time.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

This. Peak shaq was the most dominant force in league history, and potentially the GOAT player.

hakeem is a top 5-10 peak, but not at shaqs level

Tim Duncan was outperforming him in the playoffs during this span and yet Shaq's the most dominant force in league history?

I guess '99 doesn't count. Oh wait wasn't Duncan less experienced than Shaq was in '95 when he was outplayed by Hakeem, he surely should've lost and been outperformed by MDE based on experience factor right?

Oh wait that didn't happen.

duncan wasnt more dominant during shaqs peak. in fact, not close. you need to stop looking through the microscope and see the forest from the trees. its not just about a small sample of 1 year in 1 playoff run

Yeah sure, it was a lot more than a mere 1 playoff run.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq clearly got the better of Prime Hakeem in their overall matchups during the 90's (93-97) and in his 3rd year almost played Peak Hakeem to a wash in the Finals.
That is pretty incredible considering most people consider Hakeem's Peak to be Top 5'ish.

Shaq also clearly got the best of C's like Prime Ewing, Robinson and Mourning in their h2h matchups during the 90's.

I'll remember Shaq as the second best Center in the '95 Finals. That's far more significant than reg season h2h matchups which is what you hold your hat on. Shaq didn't get dominated, destroyed. But his rival outplayed him in the key stretches and showed more poise than him as well. He went scoreless in Game 1 O/T when his team needed him most. He played catchup to Hakeem in Game 2. In Game 3 it was a wash. In Game 4 , Hakeem smoked he and Orlando with a monster 35pt 15reb performance to close out the series. He committed a NBA 4 game Finals record 20 turnovers in the series.

We've already been through this with DRob, but you're spouting revisionist history. Shaq NEVER got the better of him prior to his 96-97 back woes. DRob averaged 29ppg-12rpg vs. Shaq led teams prior to his injury woes. The Spurs were the last team Shaq failed to win a reg season game against. CLEARLY outplayed DRob?

He only significantly outplayed both when they were aging and in a state of decline.

[Nairobi]

Look @ it this way, Shaq's peak = MDE. You have these debates that exist over "if you'd rather choose a prime Shaq or prime Jordan", even on this very site. I've never seen this argument bein' made for Hakeem, if u have, please direct me a link. And you already saw the h2h numbers I posted, an experienced and veteran O'Neal would've held his own just fine. Duncan was able to oust Lakeset in Timmy's 2nd year due in no small part to The Admiral, the only player I've seen that can effectively guard Diesel.

1) Again outside of RealGM and Shaq himself who exactly has appointed this guy MDE? Your he-said/she said is compared to MJ isn't proof of anything. Name a coach or player that's hailed Shaq the MDE? Oh yeah it never happened. Robert Horry had more success with Shaq than he did with Hakeem, played with both Centers at their zeniths and he considers Hakeem superior. John Salley who played with Shaq called Hakeem the greatest Center he ever played against, as did MJ. Shaq on the other hand........

2) Lol@ Spurs won in no small part due to the Admiral guarding Shaq. Post '96-97 injury DRob who was in a state of decline. Duncan was the main reason they won vs. LA plain and simple in '99 and '03. That sums up Shaq's playoff career......he only ever bullied one dimensional cupcakes like Smits, Sabonis, Vlade, Jason Collins. Hakeem won a Finals MVP vs. Shaq, Duncan outperformed/produced 99-03 Shaq in the playoffs. He was too lazy to step out of the paint and defend a Karl Malone pick n roll 2 years straight. None of those 3 found him to be quite dominating.

Whenever an opposing team had a interior superstar on top of their game that forced him to play defence, weren't afraid to drive the ball right at him, didn't cry to refs about his strength, draw him out of the paint. Other than Kobe having some monster series while he deferred in 01 & 02 he wasn't winning a damned thing. All these invincible performances came against limited opponents.

When did I say his moniker was limited to a website? Point is, he's known as the MDE, and you'd be hard-pressed to not find ppl that might pick a prime Shaq over a prime Jordan.

O'Neal doesn't have the most likeable personality, and these players have their biases as much as the next guy, I mean, Jordan says he takes Hakeem over Stilt???? . And you see how much O'Neal himself drools over Hakeem; I honestly think they still feel sorry for him when he cried in the Olympics

Robinson was still a very effective defender with age, and had a longer prime with his limited role and reduced pressure. That Robinson and Malik Rose tag-team was lethal, and that Spurs defense was legit.

Keep hangin' onto that one series, it's obvious you have no other leverage. I guess it's easier to cope that way, instead of the harsh reality that Hakeem was bounced in the 1st round NINE times, and was ran the ___ out da building in more than half of those series

[FuShengTHEGreat]

When did I say his moniker was limited to a website? Point is, he's known as the MDE, and you'd be hard-pressed to not find ppl that might pick a prime Shaq over a prime Jordan.

O'Neal doesn't have the most likeable personality, and these players have their biases as much as the next guy, I mean, Jordan says he takes Hakeem over Stilt???? . And you see how much O'Neal himself drools over Hakeem; I honestly think they still feel sorry for him when he cried in the Olympics

Robinson was still a very effective defender with age, and had a longer prime with his limited role and reduced pressure. That Robinson and Malik Rose tag-team was lethal, and that Spurs defense was legit.

Keep hangin' onto that one series, it's obvious you have no other leverage. I guess it's easier to cope that way, instead of the harsh reality that Hakeem was bounced in the 1st round NINE times, and was ran the ___ out da building in more than half of those series

LOL...So now it's potentially player agendas as to why nobody other than Shaq himself and a handful of RealGM posters label him MDE.

Peak Shaq is inferior to Jordan as well as Hakeem. Neither peak MJ (91-93)/Dream (92-95) ever got through playoff series being the second or 3rd best superstar on the floor like Shaq did vs SA. They weren't outplayed by any other opposing star either. They always showed up with their seasons on the line facing elimination unlike Shaq vs. Portland. And they disposed of their biggest rivals (Drexler 92 Finals) (Hakeem 95 Finals) mano y mano.....not deferring to others and hoping their scoring would get them past their biggest threats. When that didn't happen the '99 and '03 playoffs is what happened to Shaq.

1st rd exits are irrelevant, given this thread is about their peaks. You have to stray to strawman arguments when challenged. I could easily bring up Shaq being THE most swept star in NBA history which is even worse. The only "reality" I have to say about Dream's peak was he ended it in as picture perfect a way as possible:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz7ZUzqG93c[/youtube]

[FuShengTHEGreat]

In 02 a basically Peak Duncan outplayed a severely hobbled Shaq.

Yeah after getting seriously outplayed by Duncan in some cases by epic proportions and getting carried by Kobe to win that series, as the playoffs went on Shaq was so "hobbled" that in the NBA Finals that year vs. NJ he had 36pt-16reb, 40pt-12reb, 35pt-11reb & 34-10pt efforts vs. the Nets.

I guess his body magically healed itself within a 2-3 week span between facing SA and NJ.

Or more than likely what I've always said: Shaq got back to being the MDE bully he was when not facing teams built around elite interior prime HOF threats that didn't force him to exert himself at both ends of the floor.

[BmanInBigD]

Peak Shaq > Peak Hakeem. No way around it. Judged by my eyes AND the numbers. Lol at using one series as an argument.

[O_6]

To me that Finals performance is a good starting point to look at.

'95 Dream > '95 Shaq: extremely close but Hakeem's versatility gave him the edge over a young Shaq
'00 Shaq >> '95 Shaq: Shaq with 31/15 in the '00 playoffs and a 26/12 in '95, Shaq in '00 was amazing

Hakeem was a more complete player, his ability to impact the game in so many different ways while also being a legendary scorer was amazing. But I think it's obvious that Shaq improved a pretty fair amount from '95 to '00. Shaq was already a beast and arguably in his athletic peak around '95 but he was just bigger, smarter, and more skilled in '00. Hakeem slightly outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals. '00 Shaq was more than "slightly" better than '95 Shaq imo. That's why I'd go with Peak Shaq, even if Peak Hakeem was ridiculous.

[90sAllDecade]

Shaq has Hakeem as the GOAT center as well.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_By2-Z3tOms[/youtube]

Shaq was an offensive center and not even close as MDE on defense. Hakeem's 3 year peak is better than Shaq's three year peak and is comparable to him offensively in the playoffs.

[Nairobi]

When did I say his moniker was limited to a website? Point is, he's known as the MDE, and you'd be hard-pressed to not find ppl that might pick a prime Shaq over a prime Jordan.

O'Neal doesn't have the most likeable personality, and these players have their biases as much as the next guy, I mean, Jordan says he takes Hakeem over Stilt???? . And you see how much O'Neal himself drools over Hakeem; I honestly think they still feel sorry for him when he cried in the Olympics

Robinson was still a very effective defender with age, and had a longer prime with his limited role and reduced pressure. That Robinson and Malik Rose tag-team was lethal, and that Spurs defense was legit.

Keep hangin' onto that one series, it's obvious you have no other leverage. I guess it's easier to cope that way, instead of the harsh reality that Hakeem was bounced in the 1st round NINE times, and was ran the ___ out da building in more than half of those series

LOL...So now it's potentially player agendas as to why nobody other than Shaq himself and a handful of RealGM posters label him MDE.

And keep pretending that Akeem is greater than Wilt, and that that one series is really the decidin' factor in this debate

So now what the coaches and players say is important, yet when those same people would undoubtedly put Kobe Bryant in the top 10, or speak on the Miami Cheat, we get treats like this:

The hell with them, their opinions aren't important

[FuShengTHEGreat]

And keep pretending that Akeem is greater than Wilt, and that that one series is really the decidin' factor in this debate

So now what the coaches and players say is important, yet when those same people would undoubtedly put Kobe Bryant in the top 10, or speak on the Miami Cheat, we get treats like this:

The hell with them, their opinions aren't important

Yeah sure, as for Wilt, I'm not the only one to feel that way. I know for sure Hakeem was better defensively than Wilt and that I'd want him over Wilt in a big playoff game. It isn't just "one series" that made me draw that conclusion that Peak Shaq was a inferior Center to Hakeem. I could go on and on. In addition to faltering vs. the Spurs, the following series in '02 vs. Sacramento Shaq shot a lousy 31% in the 4th quarters of those games and proved incapable of being much of a go-to guy. Hakeem never faltered or deferred to anyone in the 4th quarters over the course of any series in his peak years.

Suddenly his numbers spike back up to "MDE" levels in the Finals as he's matched against the "fearsome" Todd Maculloch/Jason Collins duo. I guess he suddenly got healthy again. I haven't seen any proof a peak Hakeem would've been slowed by any of those cupcakes Shaq faced in any of those 3 Finals. And with Kobe averaging 30+ppg, I'd like his chances of winning vs. SA defering just like Shaq did when he won.

Peak Hakeem was a defensive threat for probably 75% of the entire floor.....and the Rockets really needed it in a lot of those 92-95 games. Shaq on the other hand hardly bothered to/proved incapable of affecting anything outside the painted area defensively which would've cost the Rockets the series vs. Utah in either year given they ran the pick n roll which led Malone to label Shaq: "the worst PnR defender I ever played against".

Despite playing brilliantly Peak Hakeem still found himself trailing in a lot of the series he played in:

Down 2-0 to Sonics in '93.....ended up losing in 7.
Down 2-0 to Phx in '94.....ended up winning in 7.
Down 3-2 to NY in '94.....ended up winning in 7.
Down 2-1 to Utah in '95.....ended up winning in 5.
Down 3-1 to Phx in '95 ended up winning in 7.

I only have to look back at Shaq's entire career, other than those dubious Donaghy reffed series in '02 vs. Sac & 06 vs. Dal.....anytime his team fell behind in a series, they stayed down. No way he leads those teams back from the brink in Dreams shoes with the letdowns he had during his peak, The margin for error was razor thin those years if you were going to win in Houston. Peak Hakeem > Peak Shaq.

[acrossthecourt]

It's really weird some people would mention Shaq's inferior competition. During Shaq's title run, the difference between conferences was as lopsided as ever, yet Shaq destroyed people anyway.

2000 playoff opponents:
SAC, Divac, +3.0 SRS, -2.0 DRtg
PHO, Luc Longley, +5.2 SRS, +0.5 DRtg
POR, Sabonis, +6.4 SRS, -3.3 DRtg
IND, Rik Smits and Dale Davis, +4.2 SRS, -0.5 DRtg

The Lakers were the best team in the league, but other than them they faced the top four out of six remaining teams. Lax competition? I don't see that. Although it's not the strongest group of centers, they're very big: the giant Sabonis, Divac has good size and flops, Rik Smits is very tall, and Luc Longley is a very big guy as well. Sure, the 90's centers are definitely better ... except that Longley and Smits were some of those 90's centers. Longley was on the decade's most dominant team....

2001 playoff opponents:
POR, Sabonis, +4.5 SRS, -2.2 DRtg
SAC, Divac, +6.1 SRS, -3.4 DRtg
SAS, Robinson and Duncan, +7.9 SRS, -5.0 DRtg
PHI, Mutombo, +3.6 SRS, -4.1 DRtg

So Shaq beat the top two teams by SRS and four out of the top seven overall. The 76ers were a weak finals opponent, but they had a great defense and Mutombo for Shaq. In fact, in the playoffs his opponents had big bodies to throw at him with some very talented centers. The 7' 3" and thick Sabonis? Duncan and Robinson? The west was so loaded that year the top six teams by SRS were in the west. That's insane. Yet Shaq still managed to put up a playoff PER of 28.7 with a WS/48 of 0.26. He averaged 30/15.


This topic is strange because I thought the consensus here was that peak Shaq ('00 and '01, though probably playoffs only) was around the second or third best all-time. Olajuwon makes up the difference with Shaq all-time due to longevity and durability.

[Nairobi]

I know for sure Hakeem was better defensively than Wilt

How do you know this?

Peak Hakeem was a defensive threat for probably 75% of the entire floor

and how do you know this?

Despite playing brilliantly Peak Hakeem still found himself trailing in a lot of the series he played in:

So when the Rockets win, it's all 'cause of Akeem, yet when they lose, it isn't his fault?

No way he leads those teams back from the brink in Dreams shoes with the letdowns he had during his peak

Again, how do you know this?

Peak Hakeem > Peak Shaq.

Only through your biased Akeem, Rocket-tinted glasses

[Nairobi]

Shaq has Hakeem as the GOAT center as well.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_By2-Z3tOms[/youtube]

Shaq was an offensive center and not even close as MDE on defense. Hakeem's 3 year peak is better than Shaq's three year peak and is comparable to him offensively in the playoffs.

O'Neal reminds me of them schoolyard days, when two kids would beat the **** outta each other, and then end up best friends afterwards. O'Neal has the ultimate respect for Olajuwon his love for him I imagine cannot be spoken in words

But anyways, Magic rightfully concedes Kobe in the rankings, although I'm sure you wouldn't roll with that, now would you?

and not even close as MDE on defense

oh, and how do you know this?

[ThaRegul8r]

O'Neal doesn't have the most likeable personality, and these players have their biases as much as the next guy, I mean, Jordan says he takes Hakeem over Stilt???? .

This is irksome because people invariably take the quote out of context. Jordan explicitly prefaced his statement with, quote: "It's going to be somewhat biased because I didn't play back in the days of Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, some of the great stars prior to me." He was limiting his choices to his contemporaries, people he actually played against. His choices can be used as evidence of what x player's contemporaries said/thought about him, but he stated from the beginning that he didn't play back in the days of the great players in the past, so they weren't going to be included. It's the same as posters who don't include players they never saw on their "GOAT" lists; Jordan didn't include anyone he didn't play with or against. But people always conveniently omit that part.