Jazzfan1971's Preseason Commentary

[Keller61]

The one thing in have learned about the Bulls is that Thibs is their MVP. It's because of his defense and system that
A. They can win 45 games without Rose and win a round in the playoffs and play Miami well.
B. Thibs always says we have enough to win no matter who is playing
C. Rose can miss nearly half a season and they still win the equivalent of 62 games like they did the year before.

Indy won 4 more games last year and won the season series 3-1 (despite Chicago going 9-3 against the 3 other top teams in the East... Miami, new York and Brooklyn)

Indy has since added back Granger, Scola, Watson, Copeland and have sky high confidence and valuable experience from their ECF run.

Is adding Rose and MDJr enough to make up that difference?

You're forgetting about all the injuries the Bulls had last season. Hinrich, Noah, Gibson, and Deng all missed a significant number of games. I think that Noah and Hinrich were out for two of the losses against the Pacers, and those were still close games. If they had stayed relatively healthy the Bulls might have won 50+ games last season. They aren't just adding Rose and MDJ; they are also getting back all of those guys healthy. Hopefully this year they will have better luck with injuries, and with Rose back Thibs won't have to rely on playing guys heavy minutes to grind out wins.

[Trader_Joe]

The one thing in have learned about the Bulls is that Thibs is their MVP. It's because of his defense and system that
A. They can win 45 games without Rose and win a round in the playoffs and play Miami well.
B. Thibs always says we have enough to win no matter who is playing
C. Rose can miss nearly half a season and they still win the equivalent of 62 games like they did the year before.

Indy won 4 more games last year and won the season series 3-1 (despite Chicago going 9-3 against the 3 other top teams in the East... Miami, new York and Brooklyn)

Indy has since added back Granger, Scola, Watson, Copeland and have sky high confidence and valuable experience from their ECF run.

Is adding Rose and MDJr enough to make up that difference?

You're forgetting about all the injuries the Bulls had last season. Hinrich, Noah, Gibson, and Deng all missed a significant number of games. I think that Noah and Hinrich were out for two of the losses against the Pacers, and those were still close games. If they had stayed relatively healthy the Bulls might have won 50+ games last season. They aren't just adding Rose and MDJ; they are also getting back all of those guys healthy. Hopefully this year they will have better luck with injuries, and with Rose back Thibs won't have to rely on playing guys heavy minutes to grind out wins.

When these things happen year in and year out to a wide array of your player you realize it's not that they are unlucky regarding injuries. It's similar to the Knicks claiming Amare, K.Martin, Bargnani etc will all be healthy as well.

[jazzfan1971]

Maybe you two could just predict how many wins each team will have and be done with it?

I'm probably going to have them separated by 1 game. And that's not much more than a coin flip. I happen to like Indy a little more, but, if someone like Chicago better that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Although, if it's a Chicago fan arguing with a guy who's not a fan of either team, I kinda have to think the 2nd guy is more objective.

[HartfordWhalers]

Maybe you two could just predict how many wins each team will have and be done with it?

I'm probably going to have them separated by 1 game. And that's not much more than a coin flip. I happen to like Indy a little more, but, if someone like Chicago better that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Although, if it's a Chicago fan arguing with a guy who's not a fan of either team, I kinda have to think the 2nd guy is more objective.

Unless they are a Nets fan, in which case their judgment has been compromised for years. (Obviously, I kid.)

Indy versus Chicago should be incredibly close, will be one of the most interesting regular season races, and most likely depend on health.

[dice]

When these things happen year in and year out to a wide array of your player you realize it's not that they are unlucky regarding injuries

are you suggesting that there's something about putting on a bulls uniform that causes injuries to occur?

noah has had problems over multiple seasons with plantar fasciitis. deng seems to always have something "denged up." boozer has missed more than his share of games over his career. but all of these things were true in the back-to-back years the team led the league in wins. both years there were significant injuries and it DID NOT MATTER. the only major concern as far as injuries go is rose

[Trader_Joe]

When these things happen year in and year out to a wide array of your player you realize it's not that they are unlucky regarding injuries

are you suggesting that there's something about putting on a bulls uniform that causes injuries to occur?

noah has had problems over multiple seasons with plantar fasciitis. deng seems to always have something "denged up." boozer has missed more than his share of games over his career. but all of these things were true in the back-to-back years the team led the league in wins. both years there were significant injuries and it DID NOT MATTER. the only major concern as far as injuries go is rose

No.
The trend has more to do with the players themselves and the coach who is known to play his guys heavy minutes and focuses on an intensive and physical style of defense which can wear them down.
Coaches like Pop take the opposite approach and rather save his players for the post-season while Thibs puts an emphasis on every single game.

Or I suppose yes it does have to do with the uniform as Thibs is the coach of the team.


Also, the injuries were much more sustainable becuase of how deep the benches were those years with the likes of Asik, Korver, Watson, Bogans, Brewer, Butler, K.Thomas etc.

[dice]

scola and watson frankly aren't big upgrades.

Frankly, that's only your opinion. Scola is a significant upgrade over Hansbrough and Watson is an upgrade over Augustin.

1) you can't state the obvious that i'm giving my opinion and then counter with...an opinion of your own. but you can't deny that scola's numbers are in steady decline
2) i said watson was an upgrade. he's just not a big one. 'cause he ain't very good

as for jimmy butler vs paul george, i was merely noting that butler was not a significant factor 'till late in the year, whereas paul george had a terrific year last year. butler will almost certainly contribute more over the course of an entire season than he did last year. not necessarily so for paul george

[dice]

When these things happen year in and year out to a wide array of your player you realize it's not that they are unlucky regarding injuries

are you suggesting that there's something about putting on a bulls uniform that causes injuries to occur?

noah has had problems over multiple seasons with plantar fasciitis. deng seems to always have something "denged up." boozer has missed more than his share of games over his career. but all of these things were true in the back-to-back years the team led the league in wins. both years there were significant injuries and it DID NOT MATTER. the only major concern as far as injuries go is rose

No.
The trend has more to do with the players themselves and the coach who is known to play his guys heavy minutes and focuses on an intensive and physical style of defense which can wear them down.
Coaches like Pop take the opposite approach and rather save his players for the post-season while Thibs puts an emphasis on every single game.

the spurs are older, for one thing. and there is no evidence to suggest that playing a professional athlete a few more minutes a night a couple times a week has any impact on his performance months down the road. and certainly not after a summer off

we're not even talking about the postseason here anyway

oh, and thibs doesn't play his guys big minutes aside from deng. i've already mentioned that to you

[Trader_Joe]

are you suggesting that there's something about putting on a bulls uniform that causes injuries to occur?

noah has had problems over multiple seasons with plantar fasciitis. deng seems to always have something "denged up." boozer has missed more than his share of games over his career. but all of these things were true in the back-to-back years the team led the league in wins. both years there were significant injuries and it DID NOT MATTER. the only major concern as far as injuries go is rose

No.
The trend has more to do with the players themselves and the coach who is known to play his guys heavy minutes and focuses on an intensive and physical style of defense which can wear them down.
Coaches like Pop take the opposite approach and rather save his players for the post-season while Thibs puts an emphasis on every single game.

the spurs are older, for one thing. and there is no evidence to suggest that playing a professional athlete a few more minutes a night a couple times a week has any impact on his performance months down the road. and certainly not after a summer off

we're not even talking about the postseason here anyway

No, but we're talking about players having gone through this for several years now and the added wear and tear on their bodies as a result.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1208 ... ose-injury

Chicago Bulls head coach Tom Thibodeau is a disciplined, hard-working, no-nonsense kind of guy who expects his players to exude those same traits.

He facilitates tough practices and approaches every game with a degree of importance that most coaches save for the postseason.

This demand for sustained maximum effort is kind of surprising considering that Thibodeau spent the years leading up to his breakthrough gig as an assistant to Doc Rivers with the Boston Celtics.

When the Celtics assembled their Big Three of Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, Rivers understood that he was dealing with aging veterans, and he treated them as such.

Practices were often scheduled to start late in the day, and Rivers did not hesitate to rest his key players down the stretch of the season.

The coaching staff in Boston understood that having their stars available for the postseason gave them the best chance at going deep into the playoffs.

NBA Finals appearances in 2008 and 2010, along with a current berth in the Eastern Conference Finals, give credence to Rivers’ safeguarding practice.

Given that experience with Boston, it is somewhat perplexing to look back at Thibodeau’s player management over his first two head coaching years and see an almost absent regard for player preservation.


Do you think Thibodeau will alter the way he handles his players next season?
Yes, being shorthanded on talent will force Thibodeau to rethink how he prepares his team. No, Thibodeau has never shown any signs of changing how he handles things and won't start now. Submit Vote vote to see results

One could argue that the talent he has with the Bulls organization is much younger and, therefore, more capable of handling a grueling regiment, but the team’s recent injury history says otherwise.

Now that he faces an upcoming season potentially without Derrick Rose and with Luol Deng possibly missing some key time if his wrist requires surgery, should fans expect to see a gentler Thibodeau for the 2012-2013 run?

Surface signs point to no; Thibodeau has never been one to apologize for the decisions that he has made as a head coach.

Even when questioned about having Rose on the floor with a double-digit lead and fewer than two minutes on the clock in their playoff opener against the Philadelphia 76ers, a defiant Thibodeau responded: “I don't work backwards like you guys do. The score was going the other way.” (via ESPN.com)

That point may have been valid thus credibly excusing Thibodeau from total blame, but Game 3 of that same series also found Thibodeau playing Joakim Noah after severely rolling his ankle on a fast break attempt.

Best intentions aside, it’s easy to question if Thibodeau’s commitment to winning supersedes his obligation to floor the best team game in and game out.

Thibodeau often focuses on the game at hand and nothing beyond that, but that shortsightedness has and will continue to cost the team dearly.
143534135_crop_exact Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images



With two key players missing a considerable amount of time next season, Thibodeau does not have much talent to work with.

If he continues his gung-ho, pedal-to-the-medal approach to team preparation, he is going to find himself even more shorthanded than ever.

Thibodeau can repeat all of the regular season successes that he wants to, but it will all add up to nothing if he keeps going into the postseason with a team operating at less than optimum health.

Teams like the Miami Heat, San Antonio Spurs and the aforementioned Celtics are once again vying for an NBA Finals berth largely because their coaches understand the importance being fully staffed as opposed to being well-seeded.

Thibodeau is going to have to alter how he handles his players or he will run the future of this franchise, along with his future as a head coach, into the ground.

[Trader_Joe]

the spurs are older, for one thing. and there is no evidence to suggest that playing a professional athlete a few more minutes a night a couple times a week has any impact on his performance months down the road. and certainly not after a summer off

we're not even talking about the postseason here anyway

oh, and thibs doesn't play his guys big minutes aside from deng. i've already mentioned that to you

Ok, dice... then how do you explain the injuries that seem to occur year after year, especially towards the end of the season?
Is it because of the uniforms they put on?

[Nuntius]

1) you can't state the obvious that i'm giving my opinion and then counter with...an opinion of your own. but you can't deny that scola's numbers are in steady decline

Stating that Scola is a significant upgrade over Hansbrough isn't an opinion. It's the truth. Yes, Scola's numbers are in decline (mostly due to playing less minutes in a team that was aiming to lose games instead of winning them) but Tyler's numbers were never good to begin with.

2) i said watson was an upgrade. he's just not a big one. 'cause he ain't very good

Having a back-up PG that is not a defensive liability is going to be a very nice upgrade in itself. Defense at the back-up PG spot is important because the league is overflowing with talented PGs.

as for jimmy butler vs paul george, i was merely noting that butler was not a significant factor 'till late in the year, whereas paul george had a terrific year last year. butler will almost certainly contribute more over the course of an entire season than he did last year. not necessarily so for paul george

I can see what you're trying to say but there was a Bulls fan in this very thread that was trying to use this very point that you're making against Hibbert and the Pacers.

[Nuntius]

and certainly not after a summer off

Deng and Noah generally do not take summers off. I heard that both of them are going to participate in this year's EuroBasket.

[dice]

1) you can't state the obvious that i'm giving my opinion and then counter with...an opinion of your own. but you can't deny that scola's numbers are in steady decline

Stating that Scola is a significant upgrade over Hansbrough isn't an opinion. It's the truth

you can't possibly be serious

Having a back-up PG that is not a defensive liability is going to be a very nice upgrade in itself

good luck with cj watson then

as for jimmy butler vs paul george, i was merely noting that butler was not a significant factor 'till late in the year, whereas paul george had a terrific year last year. butler will almost certainly contribute more over the course of an entire season than he did last year. not necessarily so for paul george

I can see what you're trying to say but there was a Bulls fan in this very thread that was trying to use this very point that you're making against Hibbert and the Pacers.

i don't speak for other bulls fans and they don't speak for me. i fully expect hibbert to have a better regular season than he did last year. but if he doesn't, and paul george doesn't, and the returning pacers are essentially as good as they were last year, don't expect granger and the new bench to push the team into the upper 50s in wins

[Trader_Joe]

1) you can't state the obvious that i'm giving my opinion and then counter with...an opinion of your own. but you can't deny that scola's numbers are in steady decline

Stating that Scola is a significant upgrade over Hansbrough isn't an opinion. It's the truth. Yes, Scola's numbers are in decline (mostly due to playing less minutes in a team that was aiming to lose games instead of winning them) but Tyler's numbers were never good to begin with.

2) i said watson was an upgrade. he's just not a big one. 'cause he ain't very good

Having a back-up PG that is not a defensive liability is going to be a very nice upgrade in itself. Defense at the back-up PG spot is important because the league is overflowing with talented PGs.

as for jimmy butler vs paul george, i was merely noting that butler was not a significant factor 'till late in the year, whereas paul george had a terrific year last year. butler will almost certainly contribute more over the course of an entire season than he did last year. not necessarily so for paul george

I can see what you're trying to say but there was a Bulls fan in this very thread that was trying to use this very point that you're making against Hibbert and the Pacers.

I will say, just based upon last year as I never paid attention to him prior, Watson was a bit of a defensive liability for Brooklyn. Still an upgrade over Augustin as he can shoot and doesn't turn the ball over, but I thought he was easily exploited on D.

[dice]

the spurs are older, for one thing. and there is no evidence to suggest that playing a professional athlete a few more minutes a night a couple times a week has any impact on his performance months down the road. and certainly not after a summer off

we're not even talking about the postseason here anyway

oh, and thibs doesn't play his guys big minutes aside from deng. i've already mentioned that to you

Ok, dice... then how do you explain the injuries that seem to occur year after year, especially towards the end of the season?
Is it because of the uniforms they put on?

it's certainly not because of big minutes. deng has actually missed fewer games due to injury since he started playing big minutes under thibs. and given that he's the only guy that's gotten big minutes as a matter of policy under thibs, it actually runs counter to your theory

hopefully with an established vet being brought in to back him up this year (dunleavy) deng won't even be playing those big minutes this year

and derrick rose? zero minutes last year. certainly can't use the "years of abuse" argument with him

[Nuntius]

I will say, just based upon last year as I never paid attention to him prior, Watson was a bit of a defensive liability for Brooklyn. Still an upgrade over Augustin as he can shoot and doesn't turn the ball over, but I thought he was easily exploited on D.

I don't think that people really fathom how bad Augustin is defensively. Here is the RAPM measurements of the Pacers -> http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/IND.html

DJ Augustin managed to have a -3.82 Defensive RAPM in the best defensive team in the league. He is that bad defensively.

A more important thing is that CJ Watson fits our defensive identity due to his size and wingspan while DJ Augustin didn't fit it as he was small and wasn't that quick either.

Honestly, even if Watson is a bit of a liablity he still is a big defensive upgrade over Augustin. In the Nets, CJ Watson posted a -1.75 Defensive RAPM. That's bad but it's still a +2.07 upgrade for us which is significant.

[Nuntius]

you can't possibly be serious

Find me one objective person that will disagree with the following statement:

Luis Scola is a better basketball player than Tyler Hansbrough.

By objective person I mean someone who is not a fan of the Pacers or the Bulls (since Bulls fans seem to like Hansbrough a lot) and probably the Raptors as well (since Hans signed there and they may want to defend them).

You may find a couple of people that will agree with you but the overwhelming majority is going to state the obvious. Scola is better.

good luck with cj watson then

I'll reference you to my reply to Trader_Joe. You don't understand how bad Augustin was defensively.

i don't speak for other bulls fans and they don't speak for me. i fully expect hibbert to have a better regular season than he did last year. but if he doesn't, and paul george doesn't, and the returning pacers are essentially as good as they were last year, don't expect granger and the new bench to push the team into the upper 50s in wins

Well, if no one improves then I'm not expecting us to improve as a team a lot either. But isn't this a worst case scenario? 22 and 23 year olds tend to improve.

[Blount]

Scola is washed up as is Pierce, Garnett and Terry. The only challenge to the Bulls in the east is Miami.

[bullsnewdynasty]

For all I care Indy can have the better regular season record. Just give me a healthy Bulls roster at the start of the playoffs.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

All these Bulls fans are adorable.

I am a Pacers fan that recognizes the Bulls as a legit threat. I wish the Bulls franchise looked at the Pacers the same way their fans do, because if they looked past us, we would smack them. That being said, the Bulls are a very well organization and I promise you they see the Pacers as a threat, even if their fans do not.