Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV

[penbeast0]

mmm . . . . I thought this was the trade thread . . . .

[hands11]

Who's complaining? I'm telling you how I like to see an NBA franchise run -- owner sets financial parameters, GM does the rest. GM succeeds, he gets the credit; GM fails, he gets the boot. Tell me, please, who owned the Celtics when Red Auerbach made them a perpetual winner? You don't know, do you?

In fact, that's how anyone who's ever run a business knows is the best way. HIre great people and make them responsible.

As to Ted, I've been familiar with him, who he is, what he's done, his career in business, etc. since the early 1990s -- lots longer than you I'm going to guess. And I was delighted when he took over the Wizards. But, no, I don't think competing to make the playoffs in the 4th season after you start rebuilding is a good result. In fact, go compare our results to, for example, the turnaround of Seattle/OKC and the most recent Celtics turnaround, and the Clippers turnaround, and Houston, and... do I really need to add more to the list?

All that said, I think we should be a pretty good team this year. I haven't put in my prediction yet (still cogitating), but I think I'll probably come in more optimistic than you. Just as I did last year.

So... don't put me in a box I'm not in. Not down in the dumps here, just analytical.

How many Red Auerbach are there in the last 20 years ? Do you know ? Do you ?

PIF, come on now. That is pretty weak debating logic you are doing there. Not sure who that stuff works on but it isn't flying here. Analytical ?

Using the exception as the standard is not a very sound way to evaluate things. You may be Analyzing but you data is wrong and so is your framework.

And you can want it however you want it. That's not the way it is. I'm trying to show you have it is. When you except that, then you can evaluate properly. EG is not Red Auerbach and this is not the old Red Auerbach Celtics or the old NBA or CBA.

If only we could get Red Auerbach to join the Washington franchise.

Beside, this is today.

And what does any of that have to do with your insistence in thinking this is the Ernie Era when it isn't. It's the Ted Era. And you will get to see wins. And yes I have been aware of Ted for a long time. Not his buddy or anything though. Beside, what do that matter.

So you projected higher then me last year did you. Well that would make you more wrong then I was. LOL. Not sure what point you were trying to make there.

As for it taking to long. I addressed that. Boston is totally a different situation. You are just thinking about when they cashed it. They actually sucked for a few years before that trade all lined up.

1992 they won 48 games. That was the year after Bird retired. You know what they did from there.

32, 35, 33, 15, 36, 19, 35, 36, 49, 44, 36, 45 ,33, 24 - That's 8 years of rebuilding. They got better for a 4 years under PP and Antwan Walker. Yes, they made the playoff at 36 wins. The last two appearances they went 0-4 and 0-4 in the playoffs and broke them up. Sucked for 2 more year, then cashed in for KG and RA. I don't remember any guns involved. I may be wrong.

Seattle ? They were a 52 win team in 2004. then they went.

35, 31, 20, 23
before they broke out back out at 50

When did Ted take over and Wall get drafted ? When was the reboot? It was 2010. Its now 2013. And Ted had Gil's franchise killing contract hanging on his neck. He send EG to find a sucker, I mean a taker, and he found one. Orlando. That move was a franchising changing move. Remember, there was no amnesty at the time. That contract could have killed this franchise for years.

They went
26, 23, 20 - strike year, 29
And they would have don't better as soon as last year without the crazy injuries. This year, they will likely be 45 or better. It hasn't taken to long. It just feels like it has because Abe owned the team so long and if you have been a fan that long, you are psychologically damaged from that.

[hands11]

mmm . . . . I thought this was the trade thread . . . .

How many trades have they made since Ted took over.

Gil for Lewis
McGee, Nick and Ronny Turiaf for Nene, Brian Cook and 2nd round pick.
Lewis and 46th pick for Okafor and Trevor A
Crawford for Leandro expiring

Is that pretty much it ?

[payitforward]

Nobody interested in my idea that Morey might trade Asik for our junk pieces (e.g. Singleton, Vesely) because he could renounce them? And he'd have Asik's $15m salary next year off his books.

We might still slide in just under the cap depending on other moves. Asik's an awfully good player, still reasonably young. Seems like it'd be a big plus for us....

Is it even legal, however?

[payitforward]

mmm . . . . I thought this was the trade thread . . . .

How many trades have they made since Ted took over.

Gil for Lewis
McGee, Nick and Ronny Turiaf for Nene, Brian Cook and 2nd round pick.
Lewis and 46th pick for Okafor and Trevor A
Crawford for Leandro expiring

Is that pretty much it ?

Many more than that:
Acquire Yi for... whatshisname? (defensive SG/SF now out of league)
Trade 2010 #30 and #36 for #23 (to acquire Booker) and #51 (acquired Hamady N'Diaye)
Acquire Heinrich and 2010 #17 for rights to Vereemenko (possibly best trade in history of the NBA!)
Trade Heinrich and Hilton Armstrong to Hawks for their 2011 #18, Crawford, and another player (name lost in mush between my ears).
Trade 2013 #38 and #54 for #35.

I thought Ernie's work in 2010-11 was absolutely brilliant. I was sure he'd finally gotten it. Then came the colossal mess of the 2011 draft, failure to trade Crawford when he might have been worth something, etc.

[popper]

Nobody interested in my idea that Morey might trade Asik for our junk pieces (e.g. Singleton, Vesely) because he could renounce them? And he'd have Asik's $15m salary next year off his books.

We might still slide in just under the cap depending on other moves. Asik's an awfully good player, still reasonably young. Seems like it'd be a big plus for us....

Is it even legal, however?

I think it's a great idea. I would love to get Asik, even if we have to throw in some future seconds. It does save them a ton of money because, as you mentioned, they would decline the options.

[hands11]

mmm . . . . I thought this was the trade thread . . . .

How many trades have they made since Ted took over.

Gil for Lewis
McGee, Nick and Ronny Turiaf for Nene, Brian Cook and 2nd round pick.
Lewis and 46th pick for Okafor and Trevor A
Crawford for Leandro expiring

Is that pretty much it ?

Many more than that:
Acquire Yi for... whatshisname? (defensive SG/SF now out of league)
Trade 2010 #30 and #36 for #23 (to acquire Booker) and #51 (acquired Hamady N'Diaye)
Acquire Heinrich and 2010 #17 for rights to Vereemenko (possibly best trade in history of the NBA!)
Trade Heinrich and Hilton Armstrong to Hawks for their 2011 #18, Crawford, and another player (name lost in mush between my ears).
Trade 2013 #38 and #54 for #35.

I thought Ernie's work in 2010-11 was absolutely brilliant. I was sure he'd finally gotten it. Then came the colossal mess of the 2011 draft, failure to trade Crawford when he might have been worth something, etc.

So Vereemenko and cap space to pick up Kirk and the #17 that turned into Kevin S
Then trade Kirk, a legit NBA baller for Crawford an interesting prospect and the 18th.
And that 18th become Chris Singleton Not Tobias or Faried. Ouch. That stings.

So basically they got Kevin S for nothing but open cap space. So they were in position for this to be a home run if they landed something good for that 18th. Instead, its a incomplete until we know what we got in Kevin. Nice maneuvering. Get an A for that part. Kevin was a good pick for the 17th that year. Two picks higher could have gotten you Larry Saunders. I didn't know who Kevin was. I would have had them taking Eric Bledsoe. I liked him at KU. But it was messy. Gil was still here.

But Singleton ? I didn't like the pick then and its looking like its an ouch years later. Could have been Tobias or Faried.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... ias-harris

Ted approved sale Mar 25, 2010
Formal control Jun 11, 2010
Draft June 24, 2010

Yi was June 29, 2010, so that was under Ted.
Yi Jianlian and cash considerations for Quinton Ross.

I didn't list pick trades. I was listing player trades. And I didn't think Ted was already owner when some of this happened. Maybe I mis remembered.

[dckingsfan]

Nobody interested in my idea that Morey might trade Asik for our junk pieces (e.g. Singleton, Vesely) because he could renounce them? And he'd have Asik's $15m salary next year off his books.

We might still slide in just under the cap depending on other moves. Asik's an awfully good player, still reasonably young. Seems like it'd be a big plus for us....

Is it even legal, however?

Yep, it would be cool and yes it could be done... I would love to have Asik here. Asik/Nene/Okafor would be terrific - I think others have their heart set on a stretch 4 but I don't think that is the makeup of this team.

[payitforward]

So basically they got Kevin S for nothing but open cap space. So they were in position for this to be a home run if they landed something good for that 18th. Instead, its a incomplete until we know what we got in Kevin. Nice maneuvering. Get an A for that part. Kevin was a good pick for the 17th that year. Two picks higher could have gotten you Larry Saunders. I didn't know who Kevin was. I would have had them taking Eric Bledsoe. I liked him at KU. But it was messy. Gil was still here.

But Singleton ? I didn't like the pick then and its looking like its an ouch years later. Could have been Tobias or Faried.

Better than you describe it -- they got Seraphin, Crawford, Mo Evans & the #18 2011 pick for the rights to Veeremenko and some cap space. I.e. they got that all for nothing. And I thought Seraphin was an excellent pick. He hasn't worked out, but not every mid-round 1 pick does. As to Bledsoe -- I couldn't have imagined that we'd pick Wall #1 and take Bledsoe too.

Ernie took advantage of the FA hysteria that Spring/Summer; the Bulls were trying to position themselves to sign Wade and maybe LeBron. I thought, and still think, that was brilliant work. And he built on it in the '10-11 season by trading Gil for Rashard -- thereby moving cap space forward by 2 seasons (Orlando will be paying Gilbert $22m and change this coming year!), as I assumed we'd buy out Rashard's final year for @ 1/2 what he was owed. As I also was sure we'd amnesty Dray, I thought he had done a brilliant job of completely repositioning the team in @ 1 year. Incredible work.

Then came the sequence of blunders in the 2011 draft, the risky trade for Nene (great guy and terrific player but physically a big risk), the bad player decisions at the back of the roster (don't bring back James Singleton but do sign Cartier Martin), the decision to throw away the cap advantage we'd gotten from trading Gil (we'll be paying Okariza $22m this year), chucking the #46 pick in the deepest draft of the last 10 (Kyle O'Quinn shd be on our roster, not Orlando's), making a total yawn pick at #32 in the same year, not bringing any undrafteds into camp that year (I wanted Greg Smith: he should be on our roster not Houston's -- take a look at the pre-draft work-out video of him at draftexpress, and you'll understand why), the series of uninspired veteran signings, waiting to trade Crawford until we had done everything possible to drive down his value.

As brilliant as the first set of moves was, the above was mind-blowingly inept. Thank God we picked Beal and that we've benefited from two lucky lottery pulls. Imagine where we'd be w/o those un-earned advantages!

[nate33]

Nobody interested in my idea that Morey might trade Asik for our junk pieces (e.g. Singleton, Vesely) because he could renounce them? And he'd have Asik's $15m salary next year off his books.

We might still slide in just under the cap depending on other moves. Asik's an awfully good player, still reasonably young. Seems like it'd be a big plus for us....

Is it even legal, however?

Ernie's Kids are effectively expiring contracts. There's nothing about their contracts that make them any more desirable as trade filler than any other expiring contract. I'm sure Houston can find a better offer for Asik than what we can offer.

[jivelikenice]

^yessir. Only way to get Asik is to give them value aside for the expirings such as a pick. Even then Houston would want to ensure they have sufficient front court depth behind Dwight so maybe something like Emeka, a first rounder, and their choice of Ernie's kids???

[hands11]

^yessir. Only way to get Asik is to give them value aside for the expirings such as a pick. Even then Houston would want to ensure they have sufficient front court depth behind Dwight so maybe something like Emeka, a first rounder, and their choice of Ernie's kids???

I don't think anything like that is happening before the season starts. I think Houston wants to try to see if they can make it work first.

[Ruzious]

Asik is basically Brendan Haywood - an excellent defensive center who understands his considerable limitations on offense. But consider that Chicago let him go and didn't miss a beat, and now Houston is likely looking to get rid of him. And he's strictly a center - who may be problematic against good small ball teams. His shot-blocking also went down dramatically last season - which may not be a bad thing but does beg the question why that happened.

I think best hope is Atlanta bombs this season and decides to rebuild - with Horford becoming available at the trade deadline or next offseason. They kept Teague only after saying they wanted someone else and after he said he wanted to be elsewhere, They're likely starting Korver and Lou Williams. Korver coming off a career year at 32 - I could see a big falloff there - and Williams is injury-prone and under-sized as a 2. And their depth is either really bad or not ready (Muscala and Schroeder). Porter would be the prime bait and would have to have an excellent rookie year, and hopefully one of EG's kids does well enough to develop some trade value. Add 2 1sts and enough EGK's to make it work, and you could have a worthy package. And going that trade route would allow them to re-sign Okariza. Effectively, they'd end up with last season's team plus Horford. Wall, Beal, Webstariza, Horford/Nene/Okafor.

[payitforward]

Nobody interested in my idea that Morey might trade Asik for our junk pieces (e.g. Singleton, Vesely) because he could renounce them? And he'd have Asik's $15m salary next year off his books.

We might still slide in just under the cap depending on other moves. Asik's an awfully good player, still reasonably young. Seems like it'd be a big plus for us....

Is it even legal, however?

Ernie's Kids are effectively expiring contracts. There's nothing about their contracts that make them any more desirable as trade filler than any other expiring contract. I'm sure Houston can find a better offer for Asik than what we can offer.

Aahh, I see -- I had a little brain ellipsis, thinking that if they were renounced by 10/31 their salaries went away for this year. That's way wrong obviously.

Oh well....

[Dat2U]

Asik is basically Brendan Haywood - an excellent defensive center who understands his considerable limitations on offense. But consider that Chicago let him go and didn't miss a beat, and now Houston is likely looking to get rid of him. And he's strictly a center - who may be problematic against good small ball teams. His shot-blocking also went down dramatically last season - which may not be a bad thing but does beg the question why that happened.

I think best hope is Atlanta bombs this season and decides to rebuild - with Horford becoming available at the trade deadline or next offseason. They kept Teague only after saying they wanted someone else and after he said he wanted to be elsewhere, They're likely starting Korver and Lou Williams. Korver coming off a career year at 32 - I could see a big falloff there - and Williams is injury-prone and under-sized as a 2. And their depth is either really bad or not ready (Muscala and Schroeder). Porter would be the prime bait and would have to have an excellent rookie year, and hopefully one of EG's kids does well enough to develop some trade value. Add 2 1sts and enough EGK's to make it work, and you could have a worthy package. And going that trade route would allow them to re-sign Okariza. Effectively, they'd end up with last season's team plus Horford. Wall, Beal, Webstariza, Horford/Nene/Okafor.

I don't really see Atlanta bombing though. I think swapping out Smith for Millsap makes them a tad better and less likely to implode with Smith's ego & attitude out of the locker room. I think they are significantly better offensively and a notch or two down defensively in Smith's absense. Kyle Korver is their Martell Webster, but with a better track record. Teague is an up-and-comer. Lou Williams missed most of last year for them, if he's back, he'll help out because he's a real solid scorer. They've added guys like Elton Brand, DeMarre Carroll & Gustavo Ayon to shore up their bench. Carroll had a real solid year in Utah and is an upgrade over DeShawn Stevenson who they had playing significant minutes at SF last year. I think Schroeder is a potential steal who will be their backup PG. Their weak spot is SG. Someone b/w Williams, John Jenkins & Jared Cunningham will need to step up and play well if they don't decide to add anyone else.

[nate33]

Asik is basically Brendan Haywood - an excellent defensive center who understands his considerable limitations on offense. But consider that Chicago let him go and didn't miss a beat, and now Houston is likely looking to get rid of him. And he's strictly a center - who may be problematic against good small ball teams. His shot-blocking also went down dramatically last season - which may not be a bad thing but does beg the question why that happened.

I think best hope is Atlanta bombs this season and decides to rebuild - with Horford becoming available at the trade deadline or next offseason. They kept Teague only after saying they wanted someone else and after he said he wanted to be elsewhere, They're likely starting Korver and Lou Williams. Korver coming off a career year at 32 - I could see a big falloff there - and Williams is injury-prone and under-sized as a 2. And their depth is either really bad or not ready (Muscala and Schroeder). Porter would be the prime bait and would have to have an excellent rookie year, and hopefully one of EG's kids does well enough to develop some trade value. Add 2 1sts and enough EGK's to make it work, and you could have a worthy package. And going that trade route would allow them to re-sign Okariza. Effectively, they'd end up with last season's team plus Horford. Wall, Beal, Webstariza, Horford/Nene/Okafor.

One difference between Asik and Haywood is that Asik is a much more dominant defensive rebounder. Asik allows a team to play small ball with a glorified SF playing the power forward position because Asik by himself can do most of the board work.

Haywood was an excellent defensive anchor, but he still needed help on the defensive glass. Houston would have trouble playing Chandler Parsons or Carlos Delfino at PF if Haywood was their center.

[Ruzious]

Asik is basically Brendan Haywood - an excellent defensive center who understands his considerable limitations on offense. But consider that Chicago let him go and didn't miss a beat, and now Houston is likely looking to get rid of him. And he's strictly a center - who may be problematic against good small ball teams. His shot-blocking also went down dramatically last season - which may not be a bad thing but does beg the question why that happened.

I think best hope is Atlanta bombs this season and decides to rebuild - with Horford becoming available at the trade deadline or next offseason. They kept Teague only after saying they wanted someone else and after he said he wanted to be elsewhere, They're likely starting Korver and Lou Williams. Korver coming off a career year at 32 - I could see a big falloff there - and Williams is injury-prone and under-sized as a 2. And their depth is either really bad or not ready (Muscala and Schroeder). Porter would be the prime bait and would have to have an excellent rookie year, and hopefully one of EG's kids does well enough to develop some trade value. Add 2 1sts and enough EGK's to make it work, and you could have a worthy package. And going that trade route would allow them to re-sign Okariza. Effectively, they'd end up with last season's team plus Horford. Wall, Beal, Webstariza, Horford/Nene/Okafor.

I don't really see Atlanta bombing though. I think swapping out Smith for Millsap makes them a tad better and less likely to implode with Smith's ego & attitude out of the locker room. I think they are significantly better offensively and a notch or two down defensively in Smith's absense. Kyle Korver is their Martell Webster, but with a better track record. Teague is an up-and-comer. Lou Williams missed most of last year for them, if he's back, he'll help out because he's a real solid scorer. They've added guys like Elton Brand, DeMarre Carroll & Gustavo Ayon to shore up their bench. Carroll had a real solid year in Utah and is an upgrade over DeShawn Stevenson who they had playing significant minutes at SF last year. I think Schroeder is a potential steal who will be their backup PG. Their weak spot is SG. Someone b/w Williams, John Jenkins & Jared Cunningham will need to step up and play well if they don't decide to add anyone else.

Ayon's awful - the Bucks turned down his option. His defensive instincts are as bad as it gets. Korver's at that age that he can lose it just like that - and Brand has started that process. Carroll has zero offensive game. That's a horrrrrrrible bench - and the wing players are not durable - I think that's clearly a recipe for disaster - we'll have to revisit this. Millsap's a good player, but he's not outstanding in anything - and certainly not the defensive player that Smith was.

[fugop]

But Singleton ? I didn't like the pick then and its looking like its an ouch years later. Could have been Tobias or Faried.

Been posting about him in other threads. May as well add it here.

The kid has an NBA ready body, mind and attitude. I like his personality. Seems like a mature kid. He isn't only going to play D, he is going to take his shot when open. I think he can help from day one.

I could easy see him getting his first start after 10-20 games. The focus is still on building. If they can get pts from Wall, Nick/Crawford, and Dray, then they can start him.

If you want to start with your strongest D line up and disrupt the other teams starting offense to start the game, Singleton would help with that. Personally, I like this approach. D first. Set the tone that it is going to be a dog fight. That is playoff style basketball.

Chris Singleton thread

The Singleton pick thread was very positive. Many projected him as a starter by the end of his first season. The only concerns were about his jump shot.

[payitforward]

Hands writes

But Singleton ? I didn't like the pick then and its looking like its an ouch years later. Could have been Tobias or Faried.

But the truth is that back then he wrote:

The kid has an NBA ready body, mind and attitude. I like his personality. Seems like a mature kid. He isn't only going to play D, he is going to take his shot when open. I think he can help from day one.

I could easy see him getting his first start after 10-20 games. The focus is still on building. If they can get pts from Wall, Nick/Crawford, and Dray, then they can start him.

If you want to start with your strongest D line up and disrupt the other teams starting offense to start the game, Singleton would help with that. Personally, I like this approach. D first. Set the tone that it is going to be a dog fight. That is playoff style basketball.

I appreciate this being revealed not because of Hands -- he's no different from anyone. Everyone remembers every case when they were right, and none of the cases when they were wrong -- and when guys turn out bad, they tend to remember not liking the pick.

(Of course, I'm the exception. I'm always right, and the very few times I'm wrong it's someone else's fault -- you know that, right?)

[doclinkin]

Neh, I think folks on this board are better than most in revealing their misses and biases. Some have selective memory but the rest of us rarely lead paragraphs with the "I've been saying for a long time blablabla..." construction.

Google is a scalpel wielded deftly, no point lying to yourself, much less others.