Detroit Pistons: The Mystery Known as Joe Dumars

[HerSports85]

Good read

http://soodetroit.com/index.php/detroit-pistons-the-mystery-known-as-joe-dumars/

[hoophabit]

Interesting, but it tends to perpetuate certain myths about Dumars and exactly how responsible he was for the Piston's decline. This article from PistonPowered lends some perspective:

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/09/my ... t-pistons/

Yes, they didn't work out well here. However, as the above article notes this wasn't apparent at the time of the signings, and there were indications they might have been helpful players. JD had the cap space and you can't just hold it until you get a chance at someone you want more. In many ways this was similar to this year.

When Dumars traded CB I think he had a full rebuild in mind, but then in March of 2009 Bill Davidson died and his ability to deal was curtailed. Joe has made his mistakes, but I think the reason he's still in place is Gores realizes that JD was in a tough situation during the ownership succession.

[Snakebites]

The fact that they were the best in that free agent class simply shows how badly timed Dumars push for "cap space" was, let alone giving up arguably our best player to obtain that cap space. That this article completely ignores that fact is very, very telling.

I buy absolutely none of it. Gordon was a terrible fit for a team that already had a ton of money invested in Richard Hamilton and was losing defensive talent.

CV had all of the warning signs of being a bad NBA player, including having a team that didn't even want to extend him the qualifying offer because they thought he might actually get LESS than that.

[DetroitDon15]

The fact that they were the best in that free agent class simply shows how badly timed Dumars push for "cap space" was, let alone giving up arguably our best player to obtain that cap space. That this article completely ignores that fact is very, very telling.

I buy absolutely none of it. Gordon was a terrible fit for a team that already had a ton of money invested in Richard Hamilton and was losing defensive talent.

CV had all of the warning signs of being a bad NBA player, including having a team that didn't even want to extend him the qualifying offer because they thought he might actually get LESS than that.

I agree with you on that. I think the big problem with Dumars was that he was chasing the next big FA signing and trying to keep this team relevant. He ignored value and fit while attempting to go big flashy signing. Joe D made the huge mistake of the Billups trade because he didn't stick to his guns as he said about the following FA class which was good. It's pointless arguing now because I'm glad it happened because Joe D had to change his ways which worked best for us.

[ImHeisenberg]

spinning your wheels in mud.

That's what comes to mind when people post more criticism's of Dumars. This guy has been crucified by so many people in the media and fans. There's literally nothing new to read.

[HotelVitale]

Gordon was a terrible fit for a team that already had a ton of money invested in Richard Hamilton and was losing defensive talent. CV had all of the warning signs of being a bad NBA player, including having a team that didn't even want to extend him the qualifying offer because they thought he might actually get LESS than that.

+1. The signings turned out worse than expected, but both were significant overpays caused by Joe thinking he knew something other GMs didn't. Other teams think Gordon is a good-but-not-great scorer who isn't good at anything else and is worth maybe $9m a year? Well we'll pair him with two other score-first shooting guards (Rip and Stuckey) and confuse them with our good-but-not-great wing scoring prowess!

CV has nice per-minute stats but everyone knows he's a chucker with no defensive IQ? Please, I'm Joe D, I personally turned Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups into all-stars (their natural development, professionality, hard work, and coaching had little to do with it). This is Detroit, we turn knuckleheads into super-pros.

And that doesn't even address the question of fit or team identity. CV and BG were above-average jump shooters when they were at their best, which is exactly what Tayshaun and Rip were. CV was an awful defender and a weak rebounder for a PF, and we had no rebounding or interior presence. BG was a small and defensively challenged SG who wasn't good at creating and who didn't shoot well within 18 feet. The plan was really to blow every cent of our money to downgrade our defense and line up four perimeter shooters alongside Maxiell and Stuckey?

[tmorgan]

The plan was really to blow every cent of our money to downgrade our defense and line up four perimeter shooters alongside Maxiell and Stuckey?

This is precisely why all this "Pistons are going to have trouble with spacing" talk can pipe down.

Perimeter based teams don't win squat. You need toughness, defense, rebounding, and passing as well. I'd much rather be weak shooting in our starting lineup (we have plenty on the bench) and play good D, kill people on the glass, have a transition game, and move the ball around. Not only is it more fun to watch, it'll be more effective than a bunch of shooters that do little else. If you have Steph Curry or prime Ray Allen, that might work, but what we have going on here is skilled athletes that, sure, aren't the best distance shooters, but have a lot else going for them.

All this other nonsense is irritating me. I had low expectations, but everyone dumping on the Pistons is making me bunker up and think big. I just need zeeb to stop being a realist and to get on the 50-win bandwagon. It doesn't matter if it's improbable, it's going to happen. I can feel it.

<maybe>

[HotelVitale]

Also cracks me up when people refer to Detroit as a 'small market.' It's not NY or LA, but metro Detroit's got at least twice as many people as the metro areas of a bunch of NBA teams (Sacto, Portland, Utah, OKC, NOLA, Memphis, San Antonio, Charlotte, Orlando, Milwaukee, Indianapolis)

[HotelVitale]

The plan was really to blow every cent of our money to downgrade our defense and line up four perimeter shooters alongside Maxiell and Stuckey?

This is precisely why all this "Pistons are going to have trouble with spacing" talk can pipe down. Perimeter based teams don't win squat. You need toughness, defense, rebounding, and passing as well. I'd much rather be weak shooting in our starting lineup (we have plenty on the bench) and play good D, kill people on the glass, have a transition game, and move the ball around. Not only is it more fun to watch, it'll be more effective than a bunch of shooters that do little else.

Well, being better and more coherent than the terrible, incoherent 2009 Pistons team doesn't mean the current Pistons team will be good. 'Spacing' isn't the issue for this year's Pistons so much as the issues are 'not being able to get decent shots because the defense doesn't have to guard half of our guys outside the paint' and 'only one of our guys is any good at creating shots for himself or others.' Those are pretty legit concerns.

The Jennings' signing helped quell some of these concerns for me, since BJ can create at so-so efficiency all day (which could be enough in a lot of games). But I think it's a false dichotomy to say we have to be either a) a team that can't do anything but jump shoot or b) a team that can't shoot but is okay at everything else. The 2003-8 Pistons teams were jump-shooting teams all the way, they just had great defense and synergy that allowed them to dominate without a more efficient offensive scheme.

[tmorgan]

Bah. I don't wanna hear that.

(of course, it's all true)

[hoophabit]

The plan was really to blow every cent of our money to downgrade our defense and line up four perimeter shooters alongside Maxiell and Stuckey?

This is precisely why all this "Pistons are going to have trouble with spacing" talk can pipe down. Perimeter based teams don't win squat. You need toughness, defense, rebounding, and passing as well. I'd much rather be weak shooting in our starting lineup (we have plenty on the bench) and play good D, kill people on the glass, have a transition game, and move the ball around. Not only is it more fun to watch, it'll be more effective than a bunch of shooters that do little else.

Well, being better and more coherent than the terrible, incoherent 2009 Pistons team doesn't mean the current Pistons team will be good. 'Spacing' isn't the issue for this year's Pistons so much as the issues are 'not being able to get decent shots because the defense doesn't have to guard half of our guys outside the paint' and 'only one of our guys is any good at creating shots for himself or others.' Those are pretty legit concerns.

The Jennings' signing helped quell some of these concerns for me, since BJ can create at so-so efficiency all day (which could be enough in a lot of games). But I think it's a false dichotomy to say we have to be either a) a team that can't do anything but jump shoot or b) a team that can't shoot but is okay at everything else. The 2003-8 Pistons teams were jump-shooting teams all the way, they just had great defense and synergy that allowed them to dominate without a more efficient offensive scheme.

I agree with tmorgans's points, and think I'm following you on the matter of perimeter shooting. Can the Pistons find enough shooting to complement their power in the paint? It would be a false dichotomy indeed, but I can't find where anyone is really arguing that it has to be all one way or the other. The Pistons' big 3 (Monroe, Drummond and Smith) should be about setting picks and dominating the paint. Two of these guys are also really good at taking advantage of the lob opportunity and the put back follow. All 3 are willing and capable passers. There should be a lot of shooting opportunities to be had. Jennings is an upgrade at PG and should help this team to run. The athleticism is much upgraded and they need to take full advantage of that. Dumars is on the line with this team as is Cheeks. Synergy is what we're hoping for, and I guess we'll start finding out if that can happen in about 6 weeks. It's an old Piston formula, a bunch of players with something to prove.

[HotelVitale]

I'm excited about this team in a way that I wasn't about the 2009 team, but I have to admit that revisiting that offseason has made me feel like running after the two biggest names we could sign might have the same clusterf*ck result.

In fact, most of my full-on excitement for this team is because of Drummond and Monroe. I like Smith and BJ but I'm not sold on them as fits; I think Smith won't be at his best with our personnel (not that he'll be bad...just not as good as he can be if the situation is perfect for him), and it's hard to see BJ being truly effective without shooters to kick it to. I think the team is going to be what a lot of bloggers think it will be--a weird collection of skilled players whose games don't complement each other, but that's still fun and interesting to watch. We should be competitive right away, and there will be some nights (or mornings for me, being in South Asia) when I'll be super proud to be a Pistons fan. But I think we'll be limited to 'decent and fun-to-watch' unless Monroe becomes Gasol or Drummond becomes D12 (both of which are possible but will still require some luck).

[Redeemed]

Bad
Drafting Rodney White
Drafting Mateen Cleaves
Drafting Darko
Not Re-signing Mehmet Okur
Re-Signing Rip
Coach Michael Curry
Coach John Kuester
Coach Lawrence Frank instead of Mike Woodson
Trading Billups for AI
Signing T-mac
Signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva
Re-Signing Prince

Good
Losing Grant Hill but gaining Ben Wallace & Chucky Aktins
Signing & Re-Signing Chauncey Billups
Not giving Ben Wallace a huge contract when he was on the decline
Trading Stackhouse for Rip
Trading for Sheed
Having what has appeared to be a successful summer of acquisitions (drafting, trading, signing)

There's stuff to complain about and stuff to be encouraged about. I hoping we can start looking forward to a successful path to another Championship in the future.

[need4detroit]

Bad
Drafting Rodney White
Drafting Mateen Cleaves
Drafting Darko
Not Re-signing Mehmet Okur
Re-Signing Rip
Coach Michael Curry
Coach John Kuester
Coach Lawrence Frank instead of Mike Woodson
Trading Billups for AI
Signing T-mac
Signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva
Re-Signing Prince

Good
Losing Grant Hill but gaining Ben Wallace & Chucky Aktins
Signing & Re-Signing Chauncey Billups
Not giving Ben Wallace a huge contract when he was on the decline
Trading Stackhouse for Rip
Trading for Sheed
Having what has appeared to be a successful summer of acquisitions (drafting, trading, signing)

There's stuff to complain about and stuff to be encouraged about. I hoping we can start looking forward to a successful path to another Championship in the future.

I thought the McGrady signing was a pleasant surprise. He outplayed his contract. But other than that I agree with the list.

[Han Solo]

That article was ****.

Half the people on RealGM could have written a better article.

Not impressed.

[mercury]

Not seeing "A mystery"... he succeeded & failed just like a large majority of GMs... let's take a look at opposing GM track records and talk about available alternatives before we talk about cutting ties with JD.

[Durins Baynes]

Snakebites is on the money. Dumars overall has been a below average GM, and should be fired already. Get rid of him, and maybe bring in someone from the Spurs front office like a lot of the good up and coming franchises are.

[princeofpalace]

Snakebites is on the money. Dumars overall has been a below average GM, and should be fired already. Get rid of him, and maybe bring in someone from the Spurs front office like a lot of the good up and coming franchises are.

[Cowology]

Bad
Drafting Rodney White
Drafting Mateen Cleaves
Drafting Darko
Not Re-signing Mehmet Okur
Re-Signing Rip
Coach Michael Curry
Coach John Kuester
Coach Lawrence Frank instead of Mike Woodson
Trading Billups for AI
Signing T-mac
Signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva
Re-Signing Prince

Good
Losing Grant Hill but gaining Ben Wallace & Chucky Aktins
Signing & Re-Signing Chauncey Billups
Not giving Ben Wallace a huge contract when he was on the decline
Trading Stackhouse for Rip
Trading for Sheed
Having what has appeared to be a successful summer of acquisitions (drafting, trading, signing)

There's stuff to complain about and stuff to be encouraged about. I hoping we can start looking forward to a successful path to another Championship in the future.

mostly agree, but we were actually unable to retain Memo after resigning sheed. The so called Gilbert arenas provision could have just as easily been named for okur.

And I didn't object to the Billips trade, it was what came after that created the problem.

[Snakebites]

^I'd argue that while the Billups move might not have been horrible on general principle, it was poorly timed by its very nature.

The moment we went all in for cap space in the 2009 offseason there was NO realistic scenario that would have put us ahead in that trade, particularly not when it was tied with the absurd extension Hamilton was given.