Central division - Bulls or Pacers?

[Pacerlive]

Here are a couple more things to think about in terms of improvement.

The Bulls with Rose in 2012: 18th in the league in scoring, 5th in the league in assists, .452% FG, a .758% winning percentage and number one overall seed.

The Bulls without Rose in 2013: 30th (dead last) in the league in scoring, 8th in the league in assists, .437% FG, a .549% winning percentage and 11th overall seed.

I'm not saying Rose accounted for every single stat, or he is coming back at 100% (he could be better, he could be worse), but I don't see where the Pacers have improved that much in any of those areas. The Bulls will obviously get a pretty big bump in those categories once Rose returns, even if he is not 100%... I mean you can't do worse than 30th in the league in scoring.

I can show you areas where they have improved.

Our starters ranked 7th in the league in points last year without Granger with a fg% of .451. IN 2011-12 we ranked 9th in points with a fg pct of .451 while the Bulls ranked 11th with a fg pct of .452.

Our bench last year ranked 29th in points with a fg% of .393 and the bulls ranked 27th in points with a fg% of .425. In 2011-12 the Pacers bench ranked 20th in points with a fg% of .405 and the Bulls ranked 23rd with a fg% of .442.

Our bench went from bad to worse from 2011 to 2013 and not just bad but one of the worse in the league.

The addition of Scola and Lance Stephenson to the bench will take our bench from the worse fg% in the league to a top 10 bench overall that can be relied on to score and most importantly hold a lead that our starters built.

I can get into other things like 3 point shooting and being a top 2 defensive team and being one of the best rebounding teams as well but I have a feeling that won't matter to you.

The additon of Rose will trump anything I type so I won't bother but I should remind you this Pacer team has gotten better defensively, rebounding and scoring since 2011-2012. Our bench has been a large reason why we haven't won more games and we all believe Scola, Watson, Copeland, Lance or Granger depending on health will all help us be a better team.

[Wizop]

Hansbrough who is now gone was on the all elbows team but Noah, and Boozer are there too. Pacers and Bulls both play physical defense which tends to get under people's skin and the refs often only see the retaliation.

[Durins Baynes]

I haven't considered Granger the Pacers best player for several years, and he was always a faux all-star. Next season? I'm not even sure he can still play off the bench. Anyone who thought Granger was the best player on the Pacers coming into last season was crazy- Hibbert had just made an All-Star team (a real one) and was clearly anchoring the Pacers in 2012, and David West was a 2 time all-star PF (an all-star out West, not in the terrible East the year Granger and a horde of other pretend all-stars got in). There was no argument for Granger to be the best player, irrespective of what you thought about George. Granger has always been extremely overrated anyway.

[Scoot McGroot]

I haven't considered Granger the Pacers best player for several years, and he was always a faux all-star. Next season? I'm not even sure he can still play off the bench. Anyone who thought Granger was the best player on the Pacers coming into last season was crazy- Hibbert had just made an All-Star team (a real one) and was clearly anchoring the Pacers in 2012, and David West was a 2 time all-star PF (an all-star out West, not in the terrible East the year Granger and a horde of other pretend all-stars got in). There was no argument for Granger to be the best player, irrespective of what you thought about George. Granger has always been extremely overrated anyway.

I'm curious. Where do you live, and do you follow any NBA media? And if so, when did you start following the NBA?

It could explain why you have such interesting "recollections".

[Durins Baynes]

It's not relevant. I follow the NBA, and moderators of all people shouldn't start with the assumption that people commenting don't. If I google search your board to 1 year ago, am I likely to find people who think Granger is your best player, or Hibbert/George? I don't think there's much doubt non-Pacers fans thought West was better prior to 2013 either.

[Scoot McGroot]

It's not relevant. I follow the NBA, and moderators of all people shouldn't start with the assumption that people commenting don't. If I google search your board to 1 year ago, am I likely to find people who think Granger is your best player, or Hibbert/George? I don't think there's much doubt non-Pacers fans thought West was better prior to 2013 either.

Before the season and before we knew about the injury? Granger. We had questions if George could grow to be a very good to great player. We had hopes, but it was up in the air. Hibbert, we felt good about, but not necessarily sure. In fact, many here weren't sure about his new contract. We also liked West, but were a little worried as he was still healing from the knee injury. West was the heart of the team, and helped change their competitive attitude, but Granger was the best player.

And I only ask in that it would make sense if you weren't reading local Indy news sources, or Central Division news sources and reports over the past 5-10 years. That would explain your views on the Pistons championship team, as well as your views on the Pacers of the past 3-5 years. Not at all meant to minimize your opinions or call you less of a fan. It would just explain an awful lot in this discussion. You know, you don't always have to be paranoid. Sometimes, a question is asked to try and find the middle ground and understand the chasm in the discussion.

[Wizop]

Anyone who thought Granger was the best player on the Pacers coming into last season was crazy-

crazy or a Pacer fan. Scoot is right. you just don't have a feel for what things felt like here in Indianapolis. your view may be objectively correct and hindsight certainly makes it look good, but that was just not the mood here. Granger had been our best player for a long time. he was in training camp and there was no expectation that his injury was as severe as it turned out to be. he had been our best player in the 2012 playoffs and we fell apart after he twisted his knee against Miami in that series.

we had hopes for Paul George but the light hadn't really come on for him yet and didn't until in about the middle of last season when he got shut out in a game on the west coast. West had shown real leadership and grit but was not the player in his first year after knee trouble that he was to be in his second year here. Hibbert had gotten a max offer and we chose to match it but many wondered if he was going to earn that money of if that was just the price for players of his size who weren't stiffs.

so crazy or not we went into last season thinking Granger was still our best player. at the all star break we were (and this includes our players) saying that we'd made the best trading deadline acquisition in the league because Granger was coming back. he played only five games and couldn't hit the ocean.

crazy or not we now have hopes he'll step up to Vogel's challenge to be our best player again. don't forget it is still August. even IU football fans expect a winning season in August.

[Scoot McGroot]

even IU football fans expect a winning season in August.

HEY!!! WE HAD AN INSIDE SHOT AT THE ROSE BOWL LAST YEAR!!!

Granted, it lasted one week, and depended on bowl bans to OSU and PSU, and everyone else to lose every other game....

[Wizop]

we have an ever better shot at the Rose Bowl right now. everyone is still 0-0.

the Bloomington Paper ran a cute piece on just this the other week. I'd give you a URL but you can't read the story online without being a subscriber. the columnist had us winning about everything except the Ohio State game and then had us going to the Rose Bowl when Ohio State went to the national championship game. at the end he admitted that he must have a case of Indianaisus Augustosis.

[Grang33r]

Going into last season, there was no question who our best player was. It was Danny Granger. How quickly people forget, the Pacers had a 2-1 games lead on the Miami Heat in the playoffs, AND a healthy lead in Game 4 when Granger got hurt late in the first half and the Heat just went on a run to close out the half and then came out gunning in the 3rd. That team was led by Granger. It was pretty common knowledge.

Paul George didn't really "take the torch" until well into this season.

[JeffFosters]

... we had hopes for Paul George but the light hadn't really come on for him yet and didn't until in about the middle of last season when he got shut out in a game on the west coast.

Golden State game by any chance? I was travelling the West Coast late last year, from Australia, and that was the one game that lined-up with my schedule. Somewhat disappointing.

Not a great photo, but here's the walk of shame after the game. In retrospect, this is the turning point:

[Brapman]

Pistons fan.

If you have a healthy team with Granger at or near full strength in the playoffs, you guys have a great chance to knock off Miami and win the East.

[mikepacernation]

Pistons fan.

If you have a healthy team with Granger at or near full strength in the playoffs, you guys have a great chance to knock off Miami and win the East.

Honestly if Granger comes back and gives us 10-12 points a game that's gonna be awesome cause we proved last year we could almost do it without him and with an extra 10-12 points I feel like that could push us over the top

[Indianafan51]

Pistons fan.

If you have a healthy team with Granger at or near full strength in the playoffs, you guys have a great chance to knock off Miami and win the East.

Honestly if Granger comes back and gives us 10-12 points a game that's gonna be awesome cause we proved last year we could almost do it without him and with an extra 10-12 points I feel like that could push us over the top

I would like 15 to 20 to help us win enough games to get home court advantage. Pacers really need to shoot for that.



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[mikepacernation]

Pistons fan.

If you have a healthy team with Granger at or near full strength in the playoffs, you guys have a great chance to knock off Miami and win the East.

Honestly if Granger comes back and gives us 10-12 points a game that's gonna be awesome cause we proved last year we could almost do it without him and with an extra 10-12 points I feel like that could push us over the top

I would like 15 to 20 to help us win enough games to get home court advantage. Pacers really need to shoot for that.



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But if that's the case George or stephensons ppg game could really fall and maybe hurt them in the long run. But maybe I'm wrong and it could help them out we will find out when season starts.

[Wizop]

But if that's the case George or stephensons ppg game could really fall and maybe hurt them in the long run.

hurt who in the long run? the team? the players? people who draft them in fantasy leagues?

I don't think more balanced scoring would hurt the team. I don't think doing what the team needs would hurt a player when it was time to negotiate a new contract. now lack of stats might hurt a players chances of making an all star team but I hope our guys would choose wins over stats. (yes, Scoot, I know whether PG is at least third team all NBA affects his max contract number, but I don't think Granger's scoring will hurt that likelihood.)

[Indianafan51]

We needed more scoring last year. I am just saying Granger needs to shoot well or how is he going to help us go to the next level. A championship. With him shooting well it will help the others IMO. Keep ball movement, more open shots, and sharing the ball as a team. The Pacers have to improve offense to compete with the top five in the East. Granger can help with that. If he is healthy, remember, he was our best offense before he was hurt. I know PG and others may be the future of this team. But Granger can help us this year. You don't get that many chances to be a contender in the NBA when you are a small market team especially. Just think we should use all of our weapons.


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