Preseason Game 2 - at Rams

[wichmae]

Thanks buddy

[eagle13]

It does take a player off the field for a fairly substantial number of plays over the course of a season.

Not sure if this is true. Maybe BF1&2 can comment. I know Im the baseball guy but doesnt teams play almost 70-80 nickel anyways?

We played about 65% Nickel last year but that was mainly because we drew a defensive schedule that made that sort of unavoidable. The Vikings and Niners made up more than 25% of our games and they decided (smartly) to attack us with the power running game so as to make us sub out Hayward with CJ Wilson.

Against teams like the Bears and Lions, Hayward never comes off the field.

Then add the small additional time he is on the field when we're in the in the dime

[askdavescat]

Wait, so is that article insinuating Hayward would be on the bench or that he would start on the outside? If Hyde is looking legit in the slot, I wouldn't mind trying Hayward on the outside since the article does make a good point about Hyde being bigger which could help on blitzes. Hayward needs to be on the field and starting though, not as our dime back.

I don't believe either one of them has the speed to cover outside. Given their hands and instincts, both Hyde and Hayward probably would have been drafted two rounds earlier if they could run.

That's the problem, as corners, they're both 'slot only' guys. Regardless of what GB keeps saying about Hyde, I still believe that eventually ( maybe not this year, but next... ) he'll be moved to safety. He's a tick bigger and more physical than Heyward, which ( so far ) appears to make him the better blitzer between the two. Perhaps he can evolve to be kind of a Leroy Butler - Lite.

That is complete nonsense when it comes to Hayward.

The idea that Hayward is destined to only be a slot CB is one of the dumbest ideas I've read in the last several years as a Packers fan. It is the dumbest thing I've read since the idea that Rodgers was merely a "game manager" back in his first year as a starter, and there are plenty of people on this board who argued that point.

Hayward is special. He's going to play at an extremely high level whether he is matching up on guys in the slot or outside in our base.

What are people even arguing? Let's say Tramon and Shields stick as the outside guys this year. If we cut Tramon next offseason and re-sign Shields, are you actually saying you'd be surprised if Hayward played at an extremely high level as a boundary CB opposite Shields in 2014?

Coming from the guy who told me I was out of my mind last year when I projected that EDS would be our starting center this year, whatever.... Ayt, you seem to be really challenged to offer opinion without insulting folks, you might want to work on that.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ ... html#casey

Given the scouting reports from last year on Heyward, and from what I've seen, I don't think he can really succeed on the outside. If he was a little bigger/stronger, perhaps he could do the Al Harris thing and simply mug recievers at the line of scrimmage, but he's not. That's why GB seems to be projecting Hyde as a better blitzer, Hyde's a little bigger, a little stronger - enough to actually have a chance to get to the QB.

I would happily be wrong about Heyward. I want all GB's cornerbacks to develop into the next Deion Sanders, but given what I've seen, and what I've read, I don't see it. I think Heyward will be a very successful slot corner, but he will struggle if he has to play a lot outside.

I'm not on the Packers coaching staff, and I'm not a scout, so I'm not claiming these are facts - just my opinion. Try not to burst into flames.

[Bucksfans1and2]

I don't believe either one of them has the speed to cover outside. Given their hands and instincts, both Hyde and Hayward probably would have been drafted two rounds earlier if they could run.

That's the problem, as corners, they're both 'slot only' guys. Regardless of what GB keeps saying about Hyde, I still believe that eventually ( maybe not this year, but next... ) he'll be moved to safety. He's a tick bigger and more physical than Heyward, which ( so far ) appears to make him the better blitzer between the two. Perhaps he can evolve to be kind of a Leroy Butler - Lite.

That is complete nonsense when it comes to Hayward.

The idea that Hayward is destined to only be a slot CB is one of the dumbest ideas I've read in the last several years as a Packers fan. It is the dumbest thing I've read since the idea that Rodgers was merely a "game manager" back in his first year as a starter, and there are plenty of people on this board who argued that point.

Hayward is special. He's going to play at an extremely high level whether he is matching up on guys in the slot or outside in our base.

What are people even arguing? Let's say Tramon and Shields stick as the outside guys this year. If we cut Tramon next offseason and re-sign Shields, are you actually saying you'd be surprised if Hayward played at an extremely high level as a boundary CB opposite Shields in 2014?

Coming from the guy who told me I was out of my mind last year when I projected that EDS would be our starting center this year, whatever.... Ayt, you seem to be really challenged to offer opinion without insulting folks, you might want to work on that.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ ... html#casey

Given the scouting reports from last year on Heyward, and from what I've seen, I don't think he can really succeed on the outside. If he was a little bigger/stronger, perhaps he could do the Al Harris thing and simply mug recievers at the line of scrimmage, but he's not. That's why GB seems to be projecting Hyde as a better blitzer, Hyde's a little bigger, a little stronger - enough to actually have a chance to get to the QB.

I would happily be wrong about Heyward. I want all GB's cornerbacks to develop into the next Deion Sanders, but given what I've seen, and what I've read, I don't see it. I think Heyward will be a very successful slot corner, but he will struggle if he has to play a lot outside.

I'm not on the Packers coaching staff, and I'm not a scout, so I'm not claiming these are facts - just my opinion. Try not to burst into flames.

I think you're going to far with the 'slot-only' idea.

His short area quickness, loose hips, good feet, good instincts and ball skills aren't going to go away just because he's playing on the outside. I think he could be an above average boundary corner given a year to get his feet wet. What he lacks at the moment is the strength to misdirect a receiver, experience getting vertical out of a back pedal, and the make-up speed to chase down his mistakes. He's never going to have Shields' ability to cover up getting beat at the line, and everybody gets beat at the line occasionally, but I don't see a reason why he couldn't figure out the back pedal issue (hell, he may already have, we haven't seen it to know one way or another). There have been plenty of good corners without 4.3 speed or Al Harris jamming ability.

On the boundary, all three of his short comings are important. In the slot, it's not such a big deal because there's almost always a Safety over your head and you're playing forward breaking on short passes. At the moment, Hayward is a star in the slot and could handle it on the outside. I just can't think of a reason that I would take him out of the slot when it's such a perfect fit for his skill set and the position is so important for our defense.

I'm higher on Davon House than most people. I'm willing to overlook that Arizona game and write it off as a guy coming back from a whole mess of issues and needing to get acclimatized. House in the Rams game did extremely well. He's not particularly smooth, but he's got violent hands at the line and he can stick in a receiver's pocket.

[askdavescat]

That is complete nonsense when it comes to Hayward.

The idea that Hayward is destined to only be a slot CB is one of the dumbest ideas I've read in the last several years as a Packers fan. It is the dumbest thing I've read since the idea that Rodgers was merely a "game manager" back in his first year as a starter, and there are plenty of people on this board who argued that point.

Hayward is special. He's going to play at an extremely high level whether he is matching up on guys in the slot or outside in our base.

What are people even arguing? Let's say Tramon and Shields stick as the outside guys this year. If we cut Tramon next offseason and re-sign Shields, are you actually saying you'd be surprised if Hayward played at an extremely high level as a boundary CB opposite Shields in 2014?

Coming from the guy who told me I was out of my mind last year when I projected that EDS would be our starting center this year, whatever.... Ayt, you seem to be really challenged to offer opinion without insulting folks, you might want to work on that.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ ... html#casey

Given the scouting reports from last year on Heyward, and from what I've seen, I don't think he can really succeed on the outside. If he was a little bigger/stronger, perhaps he could do the Al Harris thing and simply mug recievers at the line of scrimmage, but he's not. That's why GB seems to be projecting Hyde as a better blitzer, Hyde's a little bigger, a little stronger - enough to actually have a chance to get to the QB.

I would happily be wrong about Heyward. I want all GB's cornerbacks to develop into the next Deion Sanders, but given what I've seen, and what I've read, I don't see it. I think Heyward will be a very successful slot corner, but he will struggle if he has to play a lot outside.

I'm not on the Packers coaching staff, and I'm not a scout, so I'm not claiming these are facts - just my opinion. Try not to burst into flames.

I think you're going to far with the 'slot-only' idea.

His short area quickness, loose hips, good feet, good instincts and ball skills aren't going to go away just because he's playing on the outside. I think he could be an above average boundary corner given a year to get his feet wet. What he lacks at the moment is the strength to misdirect a receiver, experience getting vertical out of a back pedal, and the make-up speed to chase down his mistakes. He's never going to have Shields' ability to cover up getting beat at the line, and everybody gets beat at the line occasionally, but I don't see a reason why he couldn't figure out the back pedal issue (hell, he may already have, we haven't seen it to know one way or another). There have been plenty of good corners without 4.3 speed or Al Harris jamming ability.

On the boundary, all three of his short comings are important. In the slot, it's not such a big deal because there's almost always a Safety over your head and you're playing forward breaking on short passes. At the moment, Hayward is a star in the slot and could handle it on the outside. I just can't think of a reason that I would take him out of the slot when it's such a perfect fit for his skill set and the position is so important for our defense.

I'm higher on Davon House than most people. I'm willing to overlook that Arizona game and write it off as a guy coming back from a whole mess of issues and needing to get acclimatized. House in the Rams game did extremely well. He's not particularly smooth, but he's got violent hands at the line and he can stick in a receiver's pocket.

Appreciate the input - and even the scout's from the link I referenced said he ran a little faster at the combine than they thought he would, so perhaps I am under-selling him. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.

As you said though, why move him out of the slot, when he's demonstrated he can be very good there.

I also agree with you about House. The Arizona game was unfortunate, but I think he has the speed and length to be pretty good, as well as some toughness/physicality; traits that I think GB's DB's seem to be lacking since Collins went down.

In my mind, ideally, next year the two outside guys would be House and Shields, with Heyward as the slot guy, and T. Williams moved on to new opportunities. Draft a safety ( I have no idea who that might be now ) in the first couple rounds to match up with Burnett, and GB's DB's would be a very good group for the next 2 - 3 years.

For that to happen though, House needs to stay healthy and break through this year; it's put up or shut up time for him.