Feel the Excitement: Jays @ Astros (Today - Some Other Time)

[kwamebargnani]

how do u blame AA really

I don't blame AA for players' decline. I just want a GM that actually has the ability to evaluate players. AA can't.

[flatjacket1]

How does that prove this team doesn't have any talent issue? We have two major league starting pitchers heading into next season, and we have JPA, Izturis, Melky and Lind in the lineup when healthy. Those are some amazing talent.

I didn't know Dickey didn't qualify as a MLB SP. All he did was you know, win a Cy young last year.
I didn't know Buehrle wasn't a MLB SP. All he did was you know, make 4 AS appearances and pitch nearly 3,000 innings.
I didn't know Morrow didn't qualify as a MLB SP. All he did was you know, rank 45th in fWAR between 2010 and 2013 (yes, I included this season) in the league.

I know you chose two of them and called them MLB capable, but if you don't consider all 3 MLB capable you don't know baseball.

Yankees have Nix, Nunez, Cervelli and Ben Francisco in their opening day lineup, with 1 of them hitting 2nd. They have like 200M+ and that's what they came up with. I'd take the 4 guys you just listed over those Yankees.

[flatjacket1]

how do u blame AA really

I don't blame AA for players' decline. I just want a GM that actually has the ability to evaluate players. AA can't.

He can't? I think about 99% of baseball couldn't have predicted this years season. Vegas employs scouts to come up with their rankings, which favored us. Give me some major scouts that said outright we would be where we are now.

I bet you can't find one.

[spykelee]

That was a nice heads up bunt by Pillar. Well done sir

[kwamebargnani]

He can't? I think about 99% of baseball couldn't have predicted this years season. Vegas employs scouts to come up with their rankings, which favored us. Give me some major scouts that said outright we would be where we are now.

I bet you can't find one.

I said nothing about this season.

[kwamebargnani]

How does that prove this team doesn't have any talent issue? We have two major league starting pitchers heading into next season, and we have JPA, Izturis, Melky and Lind in the lineup when healthy. Those are some amazing talent.

I didn't know Dickey didn't qualify as a MLB SP. All he did was you know, win a Cy young last year.
I didn't know Buehrle wasn't a MLB SP. All he did was you know, make 4 AS appearances and pitch nearly 3,000 innings.
I didn't know Morrow didn't qualify as a MLB SP. All he did was you know, rank 45th in fWAR between 2010 and 2013 (yes, I included this season) in the league.

I know you chose two of them and called them MLB capable, but if you don't consider all 3 MLB capable you don't know baseball.

You're right Three starting pitchers. My point still stands.

[flatjacket1]

He can't? I think about 99% of baseball couldn't have predicted this years season. Vegas employs scouts to come up with their rankings, which favored us. Give me some major scouts that said outright we would be where we are now.

I bet you can't find one.

I said nothing about this season.

Okay then your just flat out crazy. Just checking.

[flatjacket1]

You're right Three starting pitchers. My point still stands.

I consider all 3 front of the rotation starters. We then have Drabek, Hutch, Happ who all proved in some capacity they can pitch 120+ innings.

Then our bullpen is pretty nasty.

Then we have Reyes, Bautista, Edwin, Colby.

Yeah I think we are okay...

[spykelee]

[kwamebargnani]

Yankees have Nix, Nunez, Cervelli and Ben Francisco in their opening day lineup.

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with injuries to Jeter, Granderson and A-rod. It doesn't even matter. I don't even know why we need to compare this team to a financially crippled team.

[flatjacket1]

Yankees have Nix, Nunez, Cervelli and Ben Francisco in their opening day lineup.

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with injuries to Jeter, Granderson and A-rod. It doesn't even matter. I don't even know why we need to compare this team to a financially crippled team.

Oh yeah your right, we don't have injuries.

[kwamebargnani]

You're right Three starting pitchers. My point still stands.

I consider all 3 front of the rotation starters. We then have Drabek, Hutch, Happ who all proved in some capacity they can pitch 120+ innings.

Then our bullpen is pretty nasty.

Then we have Reyes, Bautista, Edwin, Colby.

Yeah I think we are okay...

In what world, are Buerhle and Morrow front of the rotation starters? Morrow has shown signs of brilliance in the past but to say he is a front of the rotation starter right now is very unreasonable. MB and BM are both solid number 3 starters at best. And I find Drabek's name being mentioned hilarious.

[kwamebargnani]

Yankees have Nix, Nunez, Cervelli and Ben Francisco in their opening day lineup.

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with injuries to Jeter, Granderson and A-rod. It doesn't even matter. I don't even know why we need to compare this team to a financially crippled team.

Oh yeah your right, we don't have injuries.

Except JPA, Izturis, Melky and Lind are our actual starters.

[dagger]

Jays now tied for fifth worst record. Tyler Beede, come on down!

[C Court]

how do u blame AA really

I don't blame AA for players' decline. I just want a GM that actually has the ability to evaluate players. AA can't.

Yup.

It sure looks like AA was taken to the cleaners by the Marlins and Mets. No GM trades away top tier talent unless they know that what they have is on the decline. The Marlins couldn't win with these guys and Dickey is pushing 40.

Lets face it. There is no quick fix.

Luckily, I missed the game and saw We're The Millers instead (which was almost as bad as the Jays losing to the Astros).

[Randle McMurphy]

Nov. 13, 2012 (in a thread in which 220 out of 229 votes gave the Marlins deal at least a B):

AA had to swing for the fences if the Jays are to compete next season and this is it!

Give the deal an A. Have a feeling that AA is not done. Another shoe will drop.

Hindsight bias is fun.

[Wo1verine]

The SP is just awful even when guys were healthy they sucked.


Next year:

1 ?
2 ?
3 Morrow
4 Dickey
5 MB

Happ can move to the BP or GTFO and guys like Drabek or Hutch, Nolin, etc shouldn't be depended on if the goal is to win, especially if we can't upgrade the rotation. Need Top end SP.

We have a potential # 1 or 2 in Morrow (if he can ever stay healthy) , but the rest are middling at this point.

[C Court]

Nov. 13, 2012 (in a thread in which 220 out of 229 votes gave the Marlins deal at least a B):

AA had to swing for the fences if the Jays are to compete next season and this is it!

Give the deal an A. Have a feeling that AA is not done. Another shoe will drop.

Hindsight bias is fun.

So what? On paper, AA made some moves that looked good from a 'fan's perspective'. He also made questionable moves like trading for RA and hiring Gibby.

Who f-ing cares that guys on RGM gave a deal an 'A'? Do you think that Alex will go into the Rogers offices at year end for his post mortem and say .... " I know this year has been a disaster, but Mustard Tiger loved my moves!"

Alex is not a fan. He's an MLB general manager who f--ck-d up this year like no other Blue Jay executive ever has. The GM needs to know better than random fans.

2012 was bad. 2013 was worse. And 2014 is not going to be much better.

BTW, its not hindsight. It's reporting reality, just like you did countless times when Colangelo's "good on paper" moves went awry.

[dagger]

The SP is just awful even when guys were healthy they sucked.


Next year:

1 ?
2 ?
3 Morrow
4 Dickey
5 MB

Happ can move to the BP or GTFO and guys like Drabek or Hutch, Nolin, etc shouldn't be depended on if the goal is to win, especially if we can't upgrade the rotation. Need Top end SP.

We have a potential # 1 or 2 in Morrow (if he can ever stay healthy) , but the rest are middling at this point.

They will have to gamble on one of the young guys/rehabbers for one spot, and sign or trade for another starter. I don't hold out much hope that free agency or trade will yield a 1 or 2, highly unlikely, so we are going to have to depend on a committee approach and hope each guy at least keeps us competitive into the sixth and occasionally seventh inning. I oppose trading any more good prospects for a starting pitcher. My alternative is to move away from the three year window concept by trading Bautista for a high end MLB ready or near ready prospect.

[Randle McMurphy]

So what? On paper, AA made some moves that looked good from a 'fan's perspective'. He also made questionable moves like trading for RA and hiring Gibby.

Actually, they looked good from everybody's perspective (including yours, it seems). There's a reason nearly every objective baseball analyst out there was picking the Jays to at least make the postseason (and that reason would be the significant talent upgrade the team made on paper).

Who f-ing cares that guys on RGM gave a deal an 'A'? Do you think that Alex will go into the Rogers offices at year end for his post mortem and say .... " I know this year has been a disaster, but Mustard Tiger loved my moves!"

Alex is not a fan. He's an MLB general manager who f--ck-d up this year like no other Blue Jay executive ever has. The GM needs to know better than random fans.

This argument is a funny one. Your reasoning for why it's fair to criticize a GM in hindsight for making moves that made sense/that you loved at the time is that the fans (including yourself) know nothing and are in no real position to judge any move that a team makes. If that's your position, why would we take your opinion on this team now any more seriously than you did when you were vehemently shouting praises for Anthopoulos and his decisions? What has changed (other than you now shifting into childish whining mode about anything and everything Blue Jays)? If what you say is true here, your opinion now would be just as worthless as it was then.

BTW, its not hindsight. It's reporting reality, just like you did countless times when Colangelo's "good on paper" moves went awry.

Actually, ripping a GM after the fact for moves that you loved at the time while now pretending they were somehow doomed for failure from the beginning is pretty much the definition of hindsight bias.

As for Colangelo, I would have loved it if he had actually made countless good moves on paper. The organization might not be in such dire straits currently if he had done that. His problem were that those moves were quite countable indeed (and very infrequent compared to the ones that made no sense at all unless you thought mediocrity was a goal to be aspired to).