Where do you rank Kobe all-time? (poll)

[Durins Baynes]

You described the Cavs decision to keep Lebron's core together as a decision to rebuild the team, so backpedalling now with "they were mediocre" isn't going to fly. They sucked. This "they were bad, but they really 'fit his needs' well" is a familiar and unconvincing excuse some fans use, to hate on players they don't like. When I think of players who would fit next to Lebron, I don't come up with bums like Mo Williams, JJ Hickson, Delonte West, last legs Jamison, etc, etc. The only particularly good role player on those teams was Varejao. Lebron would have benefited from more talent, not "more fit", as he proved in Miami where the talent didn't fit, but won titles anyway. Lebron taking these guys to 60+ wins is an example of Lebron being a god in the NBA, with whom very few players peaks can compare. Not Kobe certainly.

And in 07 he still had to get his weak team to the finals, and he did it. Full points. In contrast the number of times Kobe's team underachieved is telling.

[aol4532]

The Lakers were 33 and 9 with Malone, 23 and 17 without. I take back my statement about Sprewell and Malone being equal, Malone is the superior player

[emotional]

No I said they were going into rebuild mode aka tanking and transitioning to a new era

Lebron has almost equaled Kobe in underachieving and in a shorter span. Give it another 8 years.

Funny thing is, Lebron required MORE talent than Kobe ever required to win as THE man on his team.

[The Infamous1]

No I said they were going into rebuild mode aka tanking and transitioning to a new era

Lebron has almost equaled Kobe in underachieving and in a shorter span. Give it another 8 years.

Funny thing is, Lebron required MORE talent than Kobe ever required to win as THE man on his team.

Lebron had 2 all stars(wade/Bosh)Kobe only had one(Gasol)

Matter of fact as a starter, Kobe has never played with 2 all stars at once. His entire prime(01-10) he played with 2(Shaq and Gasol) and never at the same time.

With The way People talk about Kobe's "talented teams" you would think he was playing with multiple all stars yearly like Lebron the last 3 years or bird/magic in the 80's

[richboy]

"Your ability to mesh with other stars is huge in evaluating players."

And literally the only way to evaluate that is by winning. Also, mesh and getting along are two different things. Kobe is very portable and yeah people may not like him, but the results on the court make it extraneous.

He doesn't have 1 title that he has won leading his team in WS. He has a total of 1 title that he barely led his team in PER.

That literally means nothing.

You ignore what I said. When Phil Jackson not around Kobe has shown zero ability to mesh with his teammates. It to the point that players only will play with him if Phil Jackson is the coach.

Lets be real. They meshed because Gasol has no ego and let Kobe bully him at times in the media. Gasol is one of the few superstars that Kobe can do that too without consequence. Gasol was more efficient than Kobe. Was more productive in his touches than Kobe. Had a higher WS than Kobe. Yet he had to fight for touches.

There is always a recipe for success. Phil Jackson allowed a recipe that could turn out good enough to exist. No matter what you cook Kobe is determined to be the main dish. That is the reality of his game. He is going to do what he does. Everybody else just figure it out where they fit in. When Phil isn't around. When the triangle isn't there to keep the ball moving. Its the Kobe show. Pretty much all the other players are left complaining in the media. Pretty much every star that has played with the Lakers has complained about touches except for Kobe.

It means prove to me that he was the best player even on the Lakers for those 2 titles? He has the biggest name and takes the most FGAs. Your game is what counts and as of now Kobe has zero titles as the best offensive player on a team. Pau Gasol has a stretch where his PER is bigger than his actual usage number. He is every bit as good as any big in the league for these runs. He gets credited like an after thought.

This is the thing though. Makes this really simple. What has happened to the Lakers since they stop going to Gasol. Phil Jackson was asked by HBO what happened to the Lakers a couple of years ago. He said he didn't agree with them going away from Pau Gasol. Kobe Bryant was playing some of his best basketball in years. Dwight Howard is winning 59 games all by himself in Orlando. Why all of a sudden the Lakers can't win. Because somehow the Lakers thought they were winning because of Kobe. When in fact Pau was every bit as good if not even better than Kobe.

[emotional]

Man you just posted a mini-narrative of which you expect me to agree with your opinion because its your opinion, right? lol

You believe what you believe. I think you're wrong. Stop beating a dead horse. Lets move on.

[Durins Baynes]

Trust me, Lebron would take prime Shaq over the 2012-13 versions of Bosh and Wade without blinking. This idea Kobe didn't have enough help is silly, and to characterise the strength of teams based only on the "number of people who made the all-star team that year" is absurd. We have enough info to guage his value, and when we look at how he did without elite teams (from 05-07) it's confirms what people thought they were seeing before and after that too (like in the Lakers record minus Shaq, but with Kobe, compared to the record with Shaq, but minus Kobe, where there is a huge disparity). For the record, from 99-04 the Lakers were 30-10 with Shaq, but without Kobe. During the same period they were 23-26 without Shaq, but with Kobe. That is just another piece of evidence that confirms what we were seeing in 05-07. Kobe's impact is just not comparable to guys he's being compared to in the top 10, who all proved they could carry teams in a way Kobe just could not.

[emotional]

You're literally replying with arguments I never made lol. It's gotten that bad?

[richboy]

Also just to say. If not for Garnett injury. Kobe probably never wins a title without Shaq. I don't see them beating those Celtics either year. Garnett playing on 1 leg pretty much stop the Celtics from what would have been the dynasty.

[emotional]

lol ok and if Bynum isn't persistently injured in 08-10 they Threepeat

If Danny Granger, Derrick Rose, Rondo, and KG arent injured, the Heat don't win a title either,

[Durins Baynes]

I'm not one to play the "what if game", I just judge people's achievements in the context they happened. The context of Kobe's makes it clear he was not close to as impactful on a basketball court as the guys in the top 10.

[richboy]

lol ok and if Bynum isn't persistently injured in 08-10 they Threepeat

If Danny Granger, Derrick Rose, Rondo, and KG arent injured, the Heat don't win a title either,

Lakers have not shown they played better with Bynum. That Odom and Gasol was there best 4 and 5. That Gasol at PF didn't work consistently defensively. Phil Jackson didn't even buy in that they were better with Bynum.

Plus the argument is actually regarding KG vs Kobe. KG look well on his way to a potential repeat when he was out for the year. Then played the Lakers again on 1 leg. Not to mention lost Perkins for game 7. It is funny how a couple of injuries happen and suddenly Kobe suppose to be so much better than KG.

[microfib4thewin]

A great coach is a great coach no matter what junction of their career they were at. We weren't talking about coaching legacy, more so ABILITY.

So 2nd year Pop and 2nd year Phil has the same ability as 10th year Phil? As great as Pop and Phil are they both have to learn along the way. Phil when he came to the Lakers was a lot better than Phil when he got promoted to HC and when Pop stepped down from the front office and started coaching. The fact that Phil and Pop won so quickly after they became head coach is a testament to how great MJ and Duncan were.

[LakerLegend]

Uh...Pop has a LONG coaching/GM career that predates when he took over the Spurs. Do your research, almost as silly as when you said Odom and Kwame were on par with Wade and Bosh.

[Asianiac_24]

No they played better in the triangle and Phil Jackson. Just to note Gasol over the years has better offensive numbers when Kobe is out. Plus Gasol career high PER was in Memphis. He was very efficient there was well. The only thing Gasol did for Kobe was be sure he wasn't good enough to take too much credit. Gasol should have been one of the most utilized big men in the league with his numbers and instead he had to fight for touches. The triangle and Phil Jackson saved Kobe Bryant from a career of just being a stat padder freezing out his teammates. Anytime Phil Jackson isn't around its a disaster for the rest of the roster. Dwight Howard was willing to play with Kobe if Phil was there. He knows the deal. He read Phil's book. Mike D, Mike Brown, Rudy T pretty much let Kobe do whatever he wanted.

Honestly though your searching. Kobe has played with great players that hated playing with him. So your stuck saying well Smush Parker did well playing with Kobe. Kobe has played with maybe a hundred different teammates. I'm sure there a few players that have done well with him. Especially if you don't want plays run for you. Just like to spot up for jumpers. Derek Fisher perfect player next to Kobe. Odom. He doesn't even like to score. Perfect next to Kobe.

To win titles you need superstar players and Kobe is hell to play with for other high usage players. Kobe himself has said this. It doesn't matter who Kobe plays with. If you play with him you have to change your usage and your style. Kobe has no ability to play a different style. He gets all his self worth in aggressive scoring. If David Stern had not blocked the Gasol/Paul trade right now we be having is Kobe the most difficult player in league history to play with threads. As we watch Kobe rack up 30 plus usage playing with Howard and Paul. Suddenly Steve Nash sucked offensively with the Lakers and everything had to be run with Kobe. People tossed it to the side because of Nash's age. Every year I keep thinking Kobe not going to need to shoot so much this year. Every year he jacking them up at the top of the league.

Your ability to mesh with other stars is huge in evaluating players. This isn't a game of one on one. This is a team game and to win you need great teammates. Pretty much any great player I put next to Kobe I know expect them to see less touches and get less production. Of course I'm sure Smush Parker will make up for it.

Pau and Bynum's FG% actually dropped dramatically when Kobe went out. Their volume might go up, but their FG% dropped a ton (especially Bynum). Who exactly played worse with Kobe? Can you name anyone that was worse with Kobe?

Blaming Nash's problems last year on Kobe is just laughable because a) Nash is old and injured and b) when Kobe was letting Nash do his thing and dropping 30 ppg on 60+ TS%, the Lakers were losing like crazy. The Lakers just don't have the shooters for Nash's playstyle, and the fact that Dwight just straight up REFUSES to run pick and rolls with Nash didn't help either.

"Ability to mesh with other stars is huge in evaluating players". Now tell me which star sucked playing with Kobe. Shaq had his prime years with Kobe. Gasol had his best years with Kobe. It's funny you keep spewing out your same agenda over and over again, yet does not recognize the simple fact that stars when teamed up together almost always have decreased touches and volume production. Dwyane Wade went from 30 ppg player and a potential MVP to a 20 PPG player and a role player with LeBron. Chris Bosh went from being one of the best PFs in this league to a mid range jump shooter. If there is anyone that has problems meshing, its LeBron and not Kobe.

[Asianiac_24]

lol ok and if Bynum isn't persistently injured in 08-10 they Threepeat

If Danny Granger, Derrick Rose, Rondo, and KG arent injured, the Heat don't win a title either,

Lakers have not shown they played better with Bynum. That Odom and Gasol was there best 4 and 5. That Gasol at PF didn't work consistently defensively. Phil Jackson didn't even buy in that they were better with Bynum.

Plus the argument is actually regarding KG vs Kobe. KG look well on his way to a potential repeat when he was out for the year. Then played the Lakers again on 1 leg. Not to mention lost Perkins for game 7. It is funny how a couple of injuries happen and suddenly Kobe suppose to be so much better than KG.

Bynum was essential to the Lakers success in 09-10. Sure the best lineup was Odom/Gasol, but one of the reasons why the Lakers were successful was because of the fact that they could always put out 2 of Odom/Gasol/Bynum on the floor .

Last time I checked the Lakers owned the Celtics in the 09 RS games, ending their 19 game win streak. I'm not saying that the Lakers would easily best the Celtics that year, but it wouldn't be easy for either team. Losing Perkins in game 7 was actually a positive for them, seeing how Rasheed vastly outperformed Perkins' average game.

If you really want to play this game, if Ariza AND Bynum was healthy for all 3 years, the Lakers would of 3-peated. Kobe was also easily the better player all 3 years.

[D Nice]

So many awesome luls in this thread, realgm's primary poster base is now officially too young to have any handle on what was happening in the NBA even ten years ago. Either that or I'm too old.

Anything less than 11 is laughable, and 11 is ranking him behind the rest of the top 10 as well as Lebron, who to date has less rings than anyone else in the top 11 save Wilt & Hakeem, who also have 2.

Personally him, Duncan, Hakeem, and Bird oscillate between 6-9 for me. Top 5 are Jordan/Kareem/Magic/Shaq/Russell with the next tier being those 4, then Wilt or Lebron for that 10th spot. Although I feel Kobe has more contemporary NBA value than Russell his resume makes him a top-5 lock. Kinda sticky as his era makes his accomplishments highly difficult to account for in regards to modern play but at the same time it's hard to punish a man for when he was born.

Gun to my head I say 8. Duncan at 6, Hakeem at 7, Kobe 8, Bird at 9 (unpopular but of the top 10 I think he clearly has the least all-time value with the shortest prime/career and a peak not much or any better than the other guys in his bracket) with Wilt/Lebron at 10/11 (for now).

[RayBan-Sematra]

I got bored so I did a quick comparison.

Peak = best 4 years
Prime = best 10 years

Jordan
(30 PER) Peak : 34 / 7 / 7 on 58%TS .....271-WSP48
(29 PER) Prime : 34 / 6 / 6 on 58%TS .....258-WSP48
____________________________________________
Shaq
(29.5 PER) Peak : 29 / 15 / 3apg / 3bpg on 57%TS .....238-WSP48
(28.7 PER) Prime : 28 / 13 / 3apg / 2.3bpg on 57%TS .....212-WSP48
____________________________________________
Duncan
(27.4 PER) Peak : 25 / 14 / 4apg / 3bpg on 56%TS .....241-WSP48
(26.4 PER) Prime : 23 / 13 / 4apg / 3bpg on 55%TS .....214-WSP48
_________________________________________________________
Kobe
(25 PER) Peak : 30 / 6 / 5apg on 57%TS .....185-WSP48
(23 PER) Prime : 28 / 5 / 5apg on .55%TS .....171-WSP48
__________________________________________________________

Plus just for fun I will put Lebrons Prime.
It isn't 10 years like the others though because he has only made the playoffs 8 times in his career.

Lebron
(27.3 PER) Prime : 28 / 9 / 7apg on 57%TS .....238-WSP48

[emotional]

PER? GTFOH

[rrravenred]

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