Where do you rank Tim Duncan all-time? (poll)

[aal04]

I have him in the top 5.

1. Won first title for a small city organisation.
2. Team went from no where to contenders from day 1.
3. Won title in second year in NBA (and was argueably MVP)
4. Didnt switch teams for more talent to win ring (Shaq, LBJ)
5. Won with 3 different casts (Twin Towers, Solo 2003, Big 3 afterwards, whilst still being leader).
6. Constant DPOY candidate throughout his career
7. Constant All-NBA baller.
8. Leads most successful team in pro US sport teams since rookie year.
9. Acts as a father figure to the team and mentors players (TP, Kawhi, Hibbert etc)

[ThaRegul8r]

He be benefits greatly from not having any haters who try to tear down his legacy and playing in a small market.

Evidently you don't get around much.

I frequent more boards than RealGM, and I can assure you this isn't the case.

No player of significance is "hater free," as there are always players to whom any given player of significance will pose a contemporary or historical threat. Thus there will always exist people who will tear him down, as their agenda will require it.

[rrravenred]

I have him in the top 5.

2. Team went from no where to contenders from day 1.

Bit harsh. SA weren't exactly league lightweights prior to Duncan.

[Shot Clock]

He be benefits greatly from not having any haters who try to tear down his legacy and playing in a small market.

Evidently you don't get around much.

I frequent more boards than RealGM, and I can assure you this isn't the case.

No player of significance is "hater free," as there are always players to whom any given player of significance will pose a contemporary or historical threat. Thus there will always exist people who will tear him down, as their agenda will require it.

Any player vying for a spot in the Top 10 will come under scrutiny. They all get questioned. It's a PC board, people aren't going to ignore the deficiencies a player has.

[ThaRegul8r]

He be benefits greatly from not having any haters who try to tear down his legacy and playing in a small market.

Evidently you don't get around much.

I frequent more boards than RealGM, and I can assure you this isn't the case.

No player of significance is "hater free," as there are always players to whom any given player of significance will pose a contemporary or historical threat. Thus there will always exist people who will tear him down, as their agenda will require it.

Any player vying for a spot in the Top 10 will come under scrutiny. They all get questioned. It's a PC board, people aren't going to ignore the deficiencies a player has.

That depends on the agenda. I've seen it too many times, and exposed too many people conducting smear campaigns against rivals of their favorites and posting flat out falsifications. Some people simply have tunnel vision and ignore anything that isn't favorable towards their favorites. For some people it isn't even deliberate, so I give them the benefit of a doubt, but conscious or unconscious, the result is the same.

There are thousands of people on message boards. Few of them are even handed when it comes to players. There's usually always a pro- and anti-player(s) bias. (I will give credit where it's due, as I have seen posters be fair and objective about their favorites, so I can't say it's true of everyone. However, it is true of the majority. And some posters are more obvious about it than others.)

[bastillon]

from what I remember Duncan only defended Shaq for short stretches, like a couple mins in the 4th, mismatches etc, no more than he did in 01, 03 or 04. furthermore Robinson didn't miss entire series and when he didn't play, Mark Bryant and Malik Rose were primary defenders on Shaq. so if you're saying that defending injured Shaq part time was more impressive than what Hakeem did in 95 finals (defended him full time visibly limiting his scoring per minute and forcing the most turnovers in his career), then you're just way off.

first, Duncan never had stamina to defend Shaq full time and still perform on the other end. second, Duncan couldn't play full game without fouling out. that's why, even in Robinson's absence, Spurs never played small ball with Duncan. he was always alongside another big to protect him from being banged up. Robinson, Rose and Bryant combined for 245 mins throughout that series. they rarely played with each other. they were defending Shaq for like 40+ mins and Duncan only had a couple mins here and there.

Pop was consistently hiding him behind other guys despite the fact that Spurs lost a lot offensively for that reason. a guy like Mark Bryant aint playing with Hakeem on the floor. you'd be playing a stretch 4 to improve your offense because Hakeem can defend Shaq full time. that's my whole problem with Duncan's defense. if it was so great then why do you have to hide him behind other guys? your entire example is completely wrong because Duncan was not defending Shaq in this series for more than stretches. Duncan didn't even defend Shaq in 03 or 04 when Shaq was clearly past his prime. if he was effective at doing it full time, Pop would've been using him more. as I said, foul trouble and stamina are the reasons why that didn't happen.

as for Amare struggling in the post against Duncan... Amare has no post game to speak of. I remember Pop using Michael Finley against Amare in 09 playoffs and he couldn't take advantage either. Amare sucks as a post player. the reason why Amare is so dangerous offensively is his off ball movement, particularly effective in the pick and rolls. he has great hands, shooting touch and finishing ability. doesn't have and never had a post game though. limiting Amare in the post is a laughable accomplishment. that being said, Amare almost scored 40 ppg in that series so to hear you saying that he struggled against Duncan is really surprising in the first place. it's Duncan who was struggling defending pick and rolls. he was never very good at it, more like average.

as for Suns... it seems they put up 110 ORtg those 2 years combined against the Spurs so they pretty much torched them. I don't know why you're taking Suns avg ORtg from the RS without taking Spurs DRtg from the RS. compared to what Spurs were doing in the RS, their defense was performing a lot worse than expected. Spurs always beat the Suns on the offensive glass and in the paint, not with their defense.

as for Duncan anchoring good playoff offenses as #1 option... they were playing terrible offense against the Pistons when the ball went through Duncan. they were mediocre offensively which is why games ended at 80 points not 110. but they were far worse when Duncan was "anchoring" that offense. the reason why they looked somewhat respectable is Manu Ginobili playing out of his mind offensively. Duncan was struggling all series long against Sheed. announcers were talking about it all the time. Sheed was able to contain him 1 on 1. that's one of the reason I don't really respect Duncan as offensive anchor. throughout Duncan's career he was often left 1 on 1 in the post. you would have to be insane to leave Barkley/Kareem like that and not double. not to mention Hakeem/Shaq. it shows how much opponents were afraid of Duncan anchoring the offense. he was no scrub but compared to all-time great big men he was lacking like a lot.

[Shot Clock]

O'Neal sustained two injuries that required stitches Sunday before leading the Lakers to an 86-80 victory over the San Antonio Spurs in the opener of their Western Conference semifinal series.


So...no

Even if you watch the series you will hear lots of talk about Shaq's state. I'm sure the cuts and sprain were improving by the next round. His toe required surgery in the off season.

The last article says that O'Neal himself stated that he sprained his ankle in game 2. Yes, he got some cuts before and during game 1, but they didn't seem to bother him, as he played better when he came back into the game after getting stitched up. It seemed to be the ankle and the toe that really bothered him, one injury which he had dealt with for the previous couple of months and bothered him throughout the playoffs anyway, and an ankle sprain that most likely bothered him well beyond the series with SA. I mean, if these injuries were serious enough to force him into a terrible offensive series, I don't think they'd magically heal to the point where he goes from struggling offensively to dominant offensively in a matter of days.

Yes, he got injured during the series against SA, but his injuries seemed to be lingering injuries that should have bothered him throughout the playoffs moving forward...but it was only against SA that he seriously struggled. Seems really weird to not give credit to Duncan for that, who along with Malik Rose, was the main guy defending him in Robinson's absence.

Ok I give up I've given you 3 articles (just the first 3 I found) that have Fisher, Kobe and PJ talking about how Shaq was hurting yet you dismiss it because he played better in the following series when 3 of his 4 injuries should have improved anyways.

Yet you think arguments like

During his prime, the Mavericks only lit up the Spurs once, in 06, when Duncan was suffering from plantar fascitis...and he more than made up for his defense with a monster offensive series -

are perfectly valid. Nothing is going to sway your opinion.

[therealbig3]

Dude, I've refuted pretty much all of those points already...you're literally just ignoring them and repeating the same arbitrary complaints.

A lot of it is just factually incorrect, like Duncan only defending Shaq for a couple of minutes...the games are on Youtube, and I just rewatched game 1...Malik Rose actually barely guarded Shaq, defended him for maybe 2 possessions...Mark Bryant and Tim Duncan shared the bulk of the responsibility on Shaq in game 1. Of Shaq's 35 minutes, Duncan defended him for about 21 minutes. When defended by Duncan, Shaq went 3-9 for 9 points and a TO (3-4 from the line). Duncan committed 2 fouls.

Or Duncan only facing 1 on 1 coverage in the 05 Finals, and it wasn't like he was the main reason why Manu was able to take advantage of the defense by drawing a ton of defensive attention. And in rewatching game 1 against the Lakers, the Lakers doubled him pretty much every time he touched the ball.

Let's also pretend like the 05 Finals is the only time the Spurs had a successful offense with Duncan as the #1 option against a good defense. Let's also forget about the times Duncan absolutely destroyed elite defenders like Dampier/Diop and Martin/Collins/Williams/Mutombo.

I already talked about the Spurs defense with regards to the Suns, you can look at it from two perspectives, from the defense's and from the offense's. Yes, the Suns played fantastic, especially when you look at the Spurs defense...but the Spurs also held them below what they typically scored at. The 05 Suns is really the only example that's been provided of Duncan's defense getting "exposed", a series in which the Suns weren't as successful as normal offensively anyway. LOL at Duncan being an average PnR defender, he's one of the best of all time at defending the PnR. If he was average, even compared to other ATG defensive anchors, it wouldn't have taken the GOAT offense to "expose" him. Considering how much the PnR is used in NBA offenses, it would seem that the Spurs would have been lit up a lot more than they were. What about against the PnR-heavy Jazz in 07, who they held to a 105.9 ORating (-4.2)? Or against the 98 Jazz, who they held to a 101.4 ORating (-11.3)?

Look, the bottom line is that Duncan is one of the highest impact players of all time, with most of that impact coming on the defensive end. Your complaints are pretty arbitrary and pretty easily refuted, as impact and portability are really all that matter at the end of the day, and Duncan is ATG with regards to both. Complaining that he didn't spend his time playing man defense against Shaq or Nowitzki when his overall defense still had GOAT-caliber impact seems to be reaching. He was used in the role that best suited him. Who's to say that Hakeem was having that great of an impact defensively when he spent so much time guarding Shaq and not spending more time as a help defender? After all, the Magic in that series had a 110 ORating. And btw, Bowen guarding Nowitzki was actually part of Dirk's scouting report at the time...he could be bothered by SFs with length. It's partly why T-Mac owned him in 05 as well. And it's not like KG had success defending Nowitzki, so that seems to be an irrelevant point anyway.

[therealbig3]

Ok I give up I've given you 3 articles (just the first 3 I found) that have Fisher, Kobe and PJ talking about how Shaq was hurting yet you dismiss it because he played better in the following series when 3 of his 4 injuries should have improved anyways.

I never dismissed Shaq hurting...I'm dismissing that his injuries were only bothering him in the SA series to such an extent that he played so poorly offensively, but then they healed so much in a matter of days that he was able to play as well as he ever did in the following 2 series. Doesn't make sense. Clearly, something else played a factor, and that factor was Tim Duncan.

[Texas Chuck]

Bastillion talks about Duncan like he's a complete scrub. Its mind=boggling. He's been the central figure of the most successful franchise from the day he walked into the league until last year when his team came oh so close to being champions with Manu playing brutally and Parker hurting.

Im not sure what else Tim Duncan has to do to impress people. A deserved all-NBA 1st team his rookie year and again this year 15 seasons later. MAde all-D teams both years too.

Offensively-- he has finished top 10 in PER all but 2 years of his career. Hardly a scrub
Defenisvely-- his dtrg goes like this:2,3,3,4,3,2,2,1,1,1,2,6,7 and then 2 years later back to 1 again.

I could pull pretty much any stat you want and Duncan looks terrific in it. Anyone claiming he's not one of the best players of all-time simply isnt being honest with themselves.

[lorak]

as for Suns... it seems they put up 110 ORtg those 2 years combined against the Spurs so they pretty much torched them. I don't know why you're taking Suns avg ORtg from the RS without taking Spurs DRtg from the RS. compared to what Spurs were doing in the RS, their defense was performing a lot worse than expected.

True. We can easily see that by looking at performance above/below expected ortg ([Spurs regular season drtg + Suns regular season ortg]/2 = Suns expected ortg in playoffs vs Spurs).

Code: Select all

+7,3   2005
+0,9   2007
-3,5   2008
+6,0   2010


So 4 series and only once Spurs defense limited Suns offense (2008). Especially impressive is what Phoenix did in 2005, when they outperformed one of the best defenses of all time by +7.3 ortg!

[therealbig3]

For reference's sake, here's how the Spurs have done defensively in the playoffs with Duncan:

98 vs Phoenix: -5.1
98 vs Utah: -11.3

99 vs Minnesota: -6.7
99 vs LAL: -10.2
99 vs Portland: -9.5
99 vs NY: -5.5

01 vs Minnesota: -10.9
01 vs Dallas: -6.7
01 vs LAL: +6.5

02 vs Seattle: -6.5
02 vs LAL: -4.9

03 vs Phoenix: -11.5
03 vs LAL: -3.5
03 vs Dallas (first 3 games): -6.2
03 vs NJ: -10.4

04 vs Memphis: -6.9
04 vs LAL: -4.4

05 vs Denver: -8.3
05 vs Seattle: -5.5
05 vs Phoenix: -0.6
05 vs Detroit: -0.1

06 vs Sacramento: +2.5
06 vs Dallas: +2.6

07 vs Denver: -5.9
07 vs Phoenix (not including suspension game): -3.8
07 vs Utah: -4.2
07 vs Cleveland: -8.5

The track record speaks for itself. The Spurs really only failed three times to stop opposing offenses (aka, prevent them from scoring at their usual rate): 01 against the Lakers (possibly the GOAT team), and 06 against both the Kings and the Mavs (Duncan injured with plantar fascitis which really limited his mobility...lo and behold, when healthy the next season, the Spurs defense was dominant again).

[sp6r=underrated]

For reference's sake, here's how the Spurs have done defensively in the playoffs with Duncan:

98 vs Phoenix: -5.1
98 vs Utah: -11.3

99 vs Minnesota: -6.7
99 vs LAL: -10.2
99 vs Portland: -9.5
99 vs NY: -5.5

01 vs Minnesota: -10.9
01 vs Dallas: -6.7
01 vs LAL: +6.5

02 vs Seattle: -6.5
02 vs LAL: -4.9

03 vs Phoenix: -11.5
03 vs LAL: -3.5
03 vs Dallas (first 3 games): -6.2
03 vs NJ: -10.4

04 vs Memphis: -6.9
04 vs LAL: -4.4

05 vs Denver: -8.3
05 vs Seattle: -5.5
05 vs Phoenix: -0.6
05 vs Detroit: -0.1

06 vs Sacramento: +2.5
06 vs Dallas: +2.6

07 vs Denver: -5.9
07 vs Phoenix (not including suspension game): -3.8
07 vs Utah: -4.2
07 vs Cleveland: -8.5

The track record speaks for itself. The Spurs really only failed three times to stop opposing offenses (aka, prevent them from scoring at their usual rate): 01 against the Lakers (possibly the GOAT team), and 06 against both the Kings and the Mavs (Duncan injured with plantar fascitis which really limited his mobility...lo and behold, when healthy the next season, the Spurs defense was dominant again).

As a summary the Spurs from 98 to 07 held teams in the RS 6.18 below their normal efficiency in the RS but only 5.14 in the PS. There is a drop off but it isn't huge by any means.

[therealbig3]

A dropoff is also to be expected, because you're playing better offenses and better teams in general. And the Spurs faced some seriously great offenses: obviously the Nash Suns, but you have the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Nowitzki's Mavs, and even Ray Allen's Sonics in 05 were a dominant offensive team. They also went up against D-Will's Jazz and Melo's Nuggets a few times. In general, the Western Conference was full of the best offensive teams during Duncan's prime.

That makes the defensive results all that more impressive imo.

[sp6r=underrated]

A dropoff is also to be expected, because you're playing better offenses and better teams in general. And the Spurs faced some seriously great offenses: obviously the Nash Suns, but you have the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Nowitzki's Mavs, and even Ray Allen's Sonics in 05 were a dominant offensive team. They also went up against D-Will's Jazz and Melo's Nuggets a few times. In general, the Western Conference was full of the best offensive teams during Duncan's prime.

That makes the defensive results all that more impressive imo.

duh, obvious but important point and I feel like a dumbass for missing it. Once you factor in offensive quality there really wasn't any drop off in performance.

Once funny is the knock on Duncan here was that his offensive game didn't translate as well when the evidence is pretty clear he was able to maintain a high impact on offense in the PS while his teammate crapped the bed reguarly from 04-07. I speak of course of Tony Parker.

[lorak]

For reference's sake, here's how the Spurs have done defensively in the playoffs with Duncan:

98 vs Phoenix: -5.1
98 vs Utah: -11.3

99 vs Minnesota: -6.7
99 vs LAL: -10.2
99 vs Portland: -9.5
99 vs NY: -5.5

01 vs Minnesota: -10.9
01 vs Dallas: -6.7
01 vs LAL: +6.5

02 vs Seattle: -6.5
02 vs LAL: -4.9

03 vs Phoenix: -11.5
03 vs LAL: -3.5
03 vs Dallas (first 3 games): -6.2
03 vs NJ: -10.4

04 vs Memphis: -6.9
04 vs LAL: -4.4

05 vs Denver: -8.3
05 vs Seattle: -5.5
05 vs Phoenix: -0.6
05 vs Detroit: -0.1

06 vs Sacramento: +2.5
06 vs Dallas: +2.6

07 vs Denver: -5.9
07 vs Phoenix (not including suspension game): -3.8
07 vs Utah: -4.2
07 vs Cleveland: -8.5

The track record speaks for itself.

That's not the best way to look at quality of defense in playoffs. DRTG below expected value is way better.

[sp6r=underrated]

What do you mean by DRTG below expected value?

[therealbig3]

Expected value would penalize them unfairly...for example, the Spurs were typically around a 99 DRating, the Nash Suns around a 114 ORating. Expected DRating would be like 106.5...meaning the Spurs should have been expected to have held the GOAT offense over 7 points under their usual scoring rate. -7.5 against a league-average offense is considered historically good defense...they should be expected to do that against the GOAT offense?

I'm much more interested in whether or not they limit the opposing team at all, and by how much, rather than what they should be "expected" to do, especially when you compare their defense to other great defensive teams.

[therealbig3]

What do you mean by DRTG below expected value?

(Spurs DRating + opposing team's ORating)/2 = EV

Basically the midway point between the Spurs defense and say the Suns offense, that's what the Spurs SHOULD have held the Suns to.

[lorak]

Expected value would penalize them unfairly...for example, the Spurs were typically around a 99 DRating, the Nash Suns around a 114 ORating. Expected DRating would be like 106.5...meaning the Spurs should have been expected to have held the GOAT offense over 7 points under their usual scoring rate. -7.5 against a league-average offense is considered historically good defense...they should be expected to do that against the GOAT offense?

Yes, especially If they were GOAT defense (and often they were...)

You can also look at that from the other side - if Suns were able to outperform GOAT Spurs defense by 7 ortg pts...

I'm much more interested in whether or not they limit the opposing team at all, and by how much,

But you can't do it without looking at Spurs defense AND their opponents offense!