Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

[sneakerdust]

Eh, I'm interested in re-litigating the Bledsoe thing. If there's evidence out there that we could have had Bledsoe if we'd just taken on Butler, I'd like to see it. I have an open mind. Hit me.

Until then, I will continue to believe the reasonable thing: that the Clippers were compelled to make the move because they got two shooters and good team players that will fit perfectly there, and that otherwise they would have waited for something better.

We got a 2nd owned by the Suns and a 2nd owned by the Clips. Instead we take Butler and Bledsoe let the Suns keep their pick and take the Clippers pick. The Suns now have no Butler contract and two 2nd round picks for Dudley. The Clips have the same as before. So the Clips still do it. Now we're only talking about us sweetening the pot a bit for the Suns.

How is that far fetched? Bledsoe on the open market was worth Dudley+Redick-2nd round pick - Bulter's contract. There plenty of room for conversation there. Everyone is wondering: did we actually have that conversation?

BTW since this is a Caron Butler trade this topic should be merged with the season ticket thread IMO.

Wait a minute. Here's what your re-imagined trade looks like.

From Bucks -- s&T'd Redick
To Bucks -- Butler, Bledsoe

From Clippers -- Butler, Bledsoe, 2nd round pick
To Clips -- Redick, Dudley

So far, everybody's happy. But wait.

From Suns -- Dudley
To Suns -- Clippers 2nd round pick (2015 protected, likely 2016)

Sweetening the pot a bit? You've removed their entire motivation to get involved. We would have to give them a significant asset. Dudley is a good player on a fair contract. Again, we were the only team in this equation that was compelled to act by forces outside our control. If the Suns couldn't get Bledsoe for Dudley, or an asset from us, they could still certainly do better than a distant 2nd round pick and 'sweetener'.

It's far-fetched because we did not have the ammo to land Bledsoe without doing one of the following things:

1) Trade Henson
2) Trade Giannis
3) Trade next year's pick
4) Absorb Deandre Jordan's contract

Some people might be willing to do one of those things. I'm not one of them. You could add a provisional 5 (Trade Ersan), if you can find a team willing to take him and give the Suns some young assets or picks. I didn't include Trade Sanders because it's an obvious non-starter.

I guess the Suns are just smarter than the rest of the league because as already stated Bledsoe netted Redick + Dudley + taking Butlers contract - 2nd round pick. your 1-4 are much more out there - especially #4 because Jordan is on the Clippers not the Suns

The only disadvantage the Bucks has is that they were weak at the SG spot the Clips wanted to pursue so they has to get another team involved cause apparently the Clips wanted more than one shooter. Thus the Suns.

If you dont want to give a lottery protected 2015 pick to the Suns or even a little more because Bledsoe isn't that good fine. But then your thesis also then claims the Suns are much smarter than you too.

Anyway you look at it the asset was available and was eventually sold at a price much lower than any of the scenarios you claim would have had to happen. This basically confirms the fact that everyone, including yourself just takes it for granted the Bucks are so incompetent that they would have to pay so much more to acquire an asset than any other team.

[sneakerdust]

ITT: Overreactions.



While this move is unnecessary, it really doesn't change too much.

Plus it gets rid of that nagging gap in our cap space. Win. Win.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

A few thought:

1. Thank god we traded for an aging SF that is expiring. Considering our past trades, this was an improvement since we gave nothing up.

2. Happy for Caron. I think he genuinely wanted to be here and is a great guy. Glad things worked out?

3. Why would anyone fish when you could pick up salmon on sale for 6 bucks a pound at pick n save? Talk about being inefficient.

4. Woelfel nailed our last 3 major moves. I think people forget that just cause trades don't happen, it doesn't mean that weren't talked about. He's by far the best Bucks guy and its not even his main job.

5. I can see another FTD season. We have a new coach to get a honey moon bump. We also added a lot of team players. Ridnour, Delfino, and butler are great chemistry guys. If we go win now and barely make the playoffs, at least I respect the players on the court.

[sneakerdust]

This also lends to the idea that Ersan probably won't be dealt.

Why? Wouldnt it be the opposite? Less reason to supplement the 3.

Oh wait thats right its the Bucks. Butler is the missing piece - cant break up the juggernaut with Ersan.

Sorry Ernie cant talk about that 2014 pick and Ariza for Ersan - we got Butler now. No picks needed. Champs.

[sneakerdust]

A few thought:


4. Woelfel nailed our last 3 major moves. I think people forget that just cause trades don't happen, it doesn't mean that weren't talked about. He's by far the best Bucks guy and its not even his main job.

You forgot he apparently got Morey to call him back. Pulitzer.

[sneakerdust]

I can't believe that management has blown over $30M in cap space to fill out the roster with aging vet's. I've been trying to be optimistic about this team the last couple of years, but the latest moves just make my head ache.

And the 76'er's are around $12M BELOW the minimum cap, and have only 11 players signed. Guess who's going to rebuilt faster, even with the terrible trade that Philly made for Bynum?

These moves are sickening.

Another fricken Dobber Downer.

Cant you smell training camp just around the corner? What wrong with your kind? Were loaded now.

[TroyD92]

This team is going to be brutal to watch. Lots of chucking from the perimeter.

I've met Caron quite a few times and he really is a good guy. So I'm pretty meh on this whole trade.

[Nebula1]

ITT: Overreactions.

Butler is pretty much an end of the bench guy at this point of his career, he's expring and Giannis really doesn't need much in terms of minutes this year anyways. It's not like he will add wins either, he's a poor mans version of Delfino.

While this move is unnecessary, it really doesn't change too much. Middleton probably gets less minutes, but he could easily outperform Caron and Delfino and force himself to get PT.

Butler is better than Delfino and will provide some scoring punch. I think he adds a win or two versus not having him. Delfino is pretty much a 4-pt shooter only at this point in his career, whereas Butler still has a decent rounded game.

And call him expiring, but the Bucks have loaded up on guys who want to be in Milwaukee and have good attitudes. I'd be surprised in the don't re-sign him.

Also means it's unlikely we'll see an Ersan dump to really go after a better pick.

[TroyD92]

ITT: Overreactions.

Butler is pretty much an end of the bench guy at this point of his career, he's expring and Giannis really doesn't need much in terms of minutes this year anyways. It's not like he will add wins either, he's a poor mans version of Delfino.

While this move is unnecessary, it really doesn't change too much. Middleton probably gets less minutes, but he could easily outperform Caron and Delfino and force himself to get PT.

Butler is better than Delfino and will provide some scoring punch. I think he adds a win or two versus not having him. Delfino is pretty much a 4-pt shooter only at this point in his career, whereas Butler still has a decent rounded game.

And call him expiring, but the Bucks have loaded up on guys who want to be in Milwaukee and have good attitudes. I'd be surprised in the don't re-sign him.

Also means it's unlikely we'll see an Ersan dump to really go after a better pick.

Caron has lost a lot. He's a bad defender at this point in his career, and he relies heavily on the 3. I don't think Butler has more then 2 years left in him.

[H2tObes]

ITT: Overreactions.

Butler is pretty much an end of the bench guy at this point of his career, he's expring and Giannis really doesn't need much in terms of minutes this year anyways. It's not like he will add wins either, he's a poor mans version of Delfino.

While this move is unnecessary, it really doesn't change too much. Middleton probably gets less minutes, but he could easily outperform Caron and Delfino and force himself to get PT.

Butler is better than Delfino and will provide some scoring punch. I think he adds a win or two versus not having him. Delfino is pretty much a 4-pt shooter only at this point in his career, whereas Butler still has a decent rounded game.

And call him expiring, but the Bucks have loaded up on guys who want to be in Milwaukee and have good attitudes. I'd be surprised in the don't re-sign him.

Also means it's unlikely we'll see an Ersan dump to really go after a better pick.

At this point in his career Caron is atrocious on D, he is pretty much a worse shooting Delfino with worse defense as well.

I don't think it matters what players we have on the roster as for what we're going to do at the trade deadline. If Herb wants to trade Ersan, he will, if he doesnt, he won't. Adding Caron doesn't change that.

Im pretty sure we just made this move because we weren't comfortable with rolling with Middleton/Giannis as our SF rotation for however long Delfino may be out.

[driese0824]

No chance Middleton gets 20+ minutes per game unless Delfino's foot is actually cut off and Neal also gets hurt.

if middleton earns it in training camp and preseason followed by at least the start of the reg season season he will get 20 plus minutes,this isn't skiles we are talking bout,now if he doesn't show he got anything then he was overvalued by us buck fans.Middleton has a great opportunity to earn minutes with fino being out lets see him grab the reins and run with it

[Godgers]

Hahahahahahahahahahah

Dumbest team in the NBA ever!

So we skip getting Bledsoe because Bucks don't want to take on Butlers contract than we trade for him months later. Amazing. I will never watch a Bucks game again.

[Nebula1]

Caron has lost a lot. He's a bad defender at this point in his career, and he relies heavily on the 3. I don't think Butler has more then 2 years left in him.

You could have said the exact same for Delfino at the end of last season. With the Bucks rolling with the 3s and D philosophy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Butler return as Giannis works his way into the starting role.

[Captain Erv]

So, no pick included?

[driese0824]

Delfino is not hurt long-term.

I should have clarified that as long as Delfino is hurt Middleton is going to play 20 minutes a game.

and that is the time for middleton to show if he has anything to continue to play those 20 minutes a game,i personally think middleton is way overhyped on this board but I guess we will see when he gets his shot to play

[Nebula1]

I don't think it matters what players we have on the roster as for what we're going to do at the trade deadline. If Herb wants to trade Ersan, he will, if he doesnt, he won't. Adding Caron doesn't change that.

Im pretty sure we just made this move because we weren't comfortable with rolling with Middleton/Giannis as our SF rotation for however long Delfino may be out.

Well I kind of disagree. Caron Butler, while aged, fits what the Bucks are doing in terms of jacking 3s and he'll likely split time with the also aged Delfino. And the Bucks won't be a bad 3pt shooting team and Butler strengthens the philosophy, at least offensively.

Trading Ersan would be a deviation from that philosophy, so I see it as less likely, but also dependent on results.

[LUKE23]

Were loaded now.

I'm hoping this was supposed to be in green and just got missed.

[Bernman]

What a bunch of retards. Balk at taking Butler with Bledsoe because they want to preserve cap space. Then use that cap space on, wait for it, wait for, wait for it.....Caron Butler.

This franchise couldn't be more comical if that was their primary goal.

[Serge28]

Guys, I think a lot of you are being overly dramatic for little reason. Kohl's mandate is simple - rebuild WHILE winning. You all know that. He probably thinks it's the only way to have any chance at securing public funding for building a new arena and keeping the Bucks in Milwaukee. Or he is just insane. Or both. Whatever his reasons are, they don't fit in with what majority of this board wants - rebuilding completely and tanking for a high draft pick in a loaded upcoming draft.

However, you all need to realize that the Bucks are only bringing back 4 players from last year's unwatchable disaster of a team - Sanders, Henson, Ersan, and Udoh. They've had the most turnover in the NBA this summer. That the contracts that Hammond gave out are not long term and not even close to overpaying the way he did with Gooden. Getting bent out of shape because Kohl told Hammond not to go into the season with Middleton/Bo as our starting SF rotation and we got a local guy on an expiring $8 million contract as a result for literally nothing is so god damn stupid. If you all react that emotionally to this move, you all are strung up way too tight and need to take a break and do some yoga or meditation or some ****. Go get a massage. Chill.

The argument that an $8 million expiring contract is worthless to us at the deadline cause Hammond will never utilize is all fine and dandy. But then don't go and in the same breath bitch at him for giving up $6 million in potentially useful cap space. Cause if you don't think he's a good enough GM to turn Butler's expiring deal into an asset at the deadline, he is not a good enough GM to turn $6 million of cap space into an asset or a draft pick either. You can't have it both ways. Be consistent!

[emunney]

We got a 2nd owned by the Suns and a 2nd owned by the Clips. Instead we take Butler and Bledsoe let the Suns keep their pick and take the Clippers pick. The Suns now have no Butler contract and two 2nd round picks for Dudley. The Clips have the same as before. So the Clips still do it. Now we're only talking about us sweetening the pot a bit for the Suns.

How is that far fetched? Bledsoe on the open market was worth Dudley+Redick-2nd round pick - Bulter's contract. There plenty of room for conversation there. Everyone is wondering: did we actually have that conversation?

BTW since this is a Caron Butler trade this topic should be merged with the season ticket thread IMO.

Wait a minute. Here's what your re-imagined trade looks like.

From Bucks -- s&T'd Redick
To Bucks -- Butler, Bledsoe

From Clippers -- Butler, Bledsoe, 2nd round pick
To Clips -- Redick, Dudley

So far, everybody's happy. But wait.

From Suns -- Dudley
To Suns -- Clippers 2nd round pick (2015 protected, likely 2016)

Sweetening the pot a bit? You've removed their entire motivation to get involved. We would have to give them a significant asset. Dudley is a good player on a fair contract. Again, we were the only team in this equation that was compelled to act by forces outside our control. If the Suns couldn't get Bledsoe for Dudley, or an asset from us, they could still certainly do better than a distant 2nd round pick and 'sweetener'.

It's far-fetched because we did not have the ammo to land Bledsoe without doing one of the following things:

1) Trade Henson
2) Trade Giannis
3) Trade next year's pick
4) Absorb Deandre Jordan's contract

Some people might be willing to do one of those things. I'm not one of them. You could add a provisional 5 (Trade Ersan), if you can find a team willing to take him and give the Suns some young assets or picks. I didn't include Trade Sanders because it's an obvious non-starter.

I guess the Suns are just smarter than the rest of the league because as already stated Bledsoe netted Redick + Dudley + taking Butlers contract - 2nd round pick. your 1-4 are much more out there - especially #4 because Jordan is on the Clippers not the Suns

The only disadvantage the Bucks has is that they were weak at the SG spot the Clips wanted to pursue so they has to get another team involved cause apparently the Clips wanted more than one shooter. Thus the Suns.

If you dont want to give a lottery protected 2015 pick to the Suns or even a little more because Bledsoe isn't that good fine. But then your thesis also then claims the Suns are much smarter than you too.

Anyway you look at it the asset was available and was eventually sold at a price much lower than any of the scenarios you claim would have had to happen. This basically confirms the fact that everyone, including yourself just takes it for granted the Bucks are so incompetent that they would have to pay so much more to acquire an asset than any other team.

I'm going to have to cop to the fact that I don't understand much of what you just said. Can you explain why you think my line of thinking implies the Suns are smarter?

Here's what I think: you're dramatically underrating the allure of adding two top shelf role players to a team on the brink of the WCF, you're underrating the value of Dudley as a player in general, and you're drastically understating the difference in trade value between a player signed to a below market contract and a UFA.

Again, you laid out a scenario in which the Suns would trade Dudley for a distant 2nd rounder and a sweetener. I'm simply telling you that it'd better be pretty damn sweet.

People want to pretend that because the Suns traded Dudley and the Bucks traded Redick, those two teams and players were bargaining from equivalent positions, and they just weren't. They weren't. Let's break it down one final time.

There are four parties with agency here.

1. The Clippers. Bledsoe is under contract. Butler is under contract. The Clippers can at any time deal them. If they don't deal them, they still have them to deal later. If the Clippers step away from this deal, there will be other deals. They have no reason to trade these players unless they really want what's coming back.

2. The Suns. Dudley is under contract. Same idea.

3. Redick. An unrestricted free agent, he can sign with any team in the league whenever he chooses. He's restricted in the amount of money he can get paid by certain teams unless the Bucks agree to participate in a S&T. By turning down the largest offer he's received (from the Bucks), he's shown that money is not his top priority.

4. The Bucks. The Bucks are a facilitator between the above three players. For this service, they can be compensated at an amount to be negotiated. If they step away, they potentially can work out a different sign and trade down the line, but they have no control over whether or not Redick's agent ever calls them again.

What about this scenario makes anybody think the Bucks could expect to stonewall and get rewarded with Bledsoe? Or just casually offer up some minor asset? Do you see the proportionality problem here? The Clippers outlay of Bledsoe is the largest value piece in this trade. The Bucks agreement to part with Redick's Bird rights, a player who had already outright refused to sign with them, was the smallest. If we don't trade the Clippers Redick, the Clippers can still sign Redick, and for not that much less money. If the Suns don't trade the Clippers Dudley, the Clippers do not get Dudley, period. If we were going to be players in this deal, we would have had to step up with something to be seriously considered. Not just transparently empty threats.