Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

[emunney]

All the people saying we "didn't give up anything" are gigantically undervaluing the value of cap space during the season. That is especially true in the new CBA.

Lets look at teams who are over the lux http://storytellerscontracts.com/
Bos- a million over, probably not going to shell out assets to get under
BRK-Could care less about getting under
CHI-Again aren't going to do anything to get under
Lakers-Thats a maybe at best and Gasol for 15 mil in expirings could get it done
MIA-Hell no
NYK-No
OKC-No

Yea not really seeing a reason to keep cap space at this point in the off season.

I strongly believe OKC will make a move to get under the lux tax threshold.

[WiscoKing13]

All the people saying we "didn't give up anything" are gigantically undervaluing the value of cap space during the season. That is especially true in the new CBA.

Lets look at teams who are over the lux http://storytellerscontracts.com/
Bos- a million over, probably not going to shell out assets to get under
BRK-Could care less about getting under
CHI-Again aren't going to do anything to get under
Lakers-Thats a maybe at best and Gasol for 15 mil in expirings could get it done
MIA-Hell no
NYK-No
OKC-No

Yea not really seeing a reason to keep cap space at this point in the off season.

I strongly believe OKC will make a move to get under the lux tax threshold.

probably a team I overlooked, I mean they traded harden to get out this type of situation. Good catch, but I think my point still holds true, only two teams LAL and OKC possibly looking to shed money. Bucks wouldn't have the expirings to get gasol and their would be an outside chance at OKC. Really don't see the harm in this trade

[emunney]

Maybe you're right, but I'd rather have the flexibility than Caron, though I can appreciate the feel good story.

[emunney]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

[WiscoKing13]

Also OKC is in the same boat as boston, a million or so over. So they could easily trade a bench guy for a TPE and cash at mid season.

EDIT: Gomes and Liggins are on unguaranteed contracts, waive one of them and they're under the tax

[Bfinkish]

Y'all need to chill with this whole Bledsoe thing. WE NEVER COULD'VE GOTTEN HIM. WE DIDN'T HAVE THE ASSETS. my goodness.

With the team constructed we were never in tank mode. so just chill. Butler is fine. We got him for nothing, he will create excitement and sell tix. TBH throwing Giannis out there at 18, super raw and never have played in NBA competition is a bit dangerous. You don't want to ruin it for him. Someone like him you develop slowly. Think Ersan.... You don't throw in a kid at 18 into the NBA with a ton of minutes. It can really damage his development.

Tanking doesn't work for small market teams. The star player ends up leaving anyways for a bigger and better market. (Lebron, Shaq, Melo, Howard, Harden, Bosh, Paul, ect....) for the type of market the bucks are in you need to build like the pacers. We bring in 10+ new players, a new coaching staff and to be honest we have one of the deepest rotations in the league. We have drafted really good players over the last few years. Also I think it's funny that some of you say that OKC did it the right way a by tanking.... Well talk to me when they win a championship. That's the goal and they still haven't done it. They are competitive but haven't won the big one then pay Ibaka a crap load of cash instead of locking down Harden. The goal is championships and OKC and MIL both have 0 since OKC came into the league. I see a lot more teams in the lottery every single year and it doesn't end up helping them. Raptors, Bobcats, trailblazers, Clippers (FINALLY hit with blake, but tanked for years and years and didn't do anything - still aren't favorites to win it all) and more. The Championship teams will end up getting the best player (Jordan already in a large market, Lebron ended up going to a large market) or very well constructed (See Detroit in the early/mid 2000's.)

Did we screw up the tobais trade? of course. But they have learned from it, I truly believe that. It's these moves that kill a franchise as that is one of the key pieces that we just threw away. We made a mistake, what is done is done; it's time to move on.


I'm not trying to be a mini jim paschke or Bucks FO apologist because I can def see the issues at hand. But the fact that they cleaned house in the Coaching Department, brought 10+ new players in, no crippling contracts by any means (only 3 year ones) and added young talent along with solid vets instead of guys like marques daniels gives me hope they are getting it. Call me crazy but I see us being a 6th seed this year. I like the team.

[Bfinkish]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

agreed completely. it's horrendous.

[Baddy Chuck]

Call me crazy but I see us being a 6th seed this year.

If you say so, you're crazy.

[WiscoKing13]

Y'all need to chill with this whole Bledsoe thing. WE NEVER COULD'VE GOTTEN HIM. WE DIDN'T HAVE THE ASSETS. my goodness.

With the team constructed we were never in tank mode. so just chill. Butler is fine. We got him for nothing, he will create excitement and sell tix. TBH throwing Giannis out there at 18, super raw and never have played in NBA competition is a bit dangerous. You don't want to ruin it for him. Someone like him you develop slowly. Think Ersan.... You don't throw in a kid at 18 into the NBA with a ton of minutes. It can really damage his development.

Tanking doesn't work for small market teams. The star player ends up leaving anyways for a bigger and better market. (Lebron, Shaq, Melo, Howard, Harden, Bosh, Paul, ect....) for the type of market the bucks are in you need to build like the pacers. We bring in 10+ new players, a new coaching staff and to be honest we have one of the deepest rotations in the league. We have drafted really good players over the last few years. Also I think it's funny that some of you say that OKC did it the right way a by tanking.... Well talk to me when they win a championship. That's the goal and they still haven't done it. They are competitive but haven't won the big one then pay Ibaka a crap load of cash instead of locking down Harden. The goal is championships and OKC and MIL both have 0 since OKC came into the league. I see a lot more teams in the lottery every single year and it doesn't end up helping them. Raptors, Bobcats, trailblazers, Clippers (FINALLY hit with blake, but tanked for years and years and didn't do anything - still aren't favorites to win it all) and more. The Championship teams will end up getting the best player (Jordan already in a large market, Lebron ended up going to a large market) or very well constructed (See Detroit in the early/mid 2000's.)

Did we screw up the tobais trade? of course. But they have learned from it, I truly believe that. It's these moves that kill a franchise as that is one of the key pieces that we just threw away. We made a mistake, what is done is done; it's time to move on.


I'm not trying to be a mini jim paschke or Bucks FO apologist because I can def see the issues at hand. But the fact that they cleaned house in the Coaching Department, brought 10+ new players in, no crippling contracts by any means (only 3 year ones) and added young talent along with solid vets instead of guys like marques daniels gives me hope they are getting it. Call me crazy but I see us being a 6th seed this year. I like the team.

I really can't comprehend this point, that we couldn't of gotten bledsoe if we took bulter.

Now if you want to say that hammonds number 1 priority was Teague and didn't want to tie up all of our cap space with the QO's of Monta/Jennings and not be able to offer Teague a contract till one BJ/Monta contracts were resolved, that a rational argument.

Or we can break this down even simpler
Fray<JJ
Bucks taking on Butler instead of PHX, is another plus in the bucks direction.
And finally, if the bucks pull out of the deal, LAC doesn't get JJ.
I don't know, to me its simple math

[sneakerdust]

Were loaded now.

I'm hoping this was supposed to be in green and just got missed.

I never got the green thing. If you have to point it out like wearing a sandwich board whats the point. But I suppose its another submission to the twitterization of the human brain.

That was a joke.


Ha! Try and figure that one out.

Ha! Try and figure this one out!

Don't get me started on then, than and the other.

Ooops... Don't get me started on...

[blazza18]

Y'all need to chill with this whole Bledsoe thing. WE NEVER COULD'VE GOTTEN HIM. WE DIDN'T HAVE THE ASSETS. my goodness.

I'm not sure how we didn't have enough assets considering all Phoenix gave up was Dudley. An extra 3 pointer shooter is great but they still need some players who play some actual defence, players we have.

I just think Hammond goof balled on the deal and just wanted to do what was best by Redick. Bledsoe was probably never a player we had our eyes on.

[sneakerdust]

Wait a minute. Here's what your re-imagined trade looks like.

From Bucks -- s&T'd Redick
To Bucks -- Butler, Bledsoe

From Clippers -- Butler, Bledsoe, 2nd round pick
To Clips -- Redick, Dudley

So far, everybody's happy. But wait.

From Suns -- Dudley
To Suns -- Clippers 2nd round pick (2015 protected, likely 2016)

Sweetening the pot a bit? You've removed their entire motivation to get involved. We would have to give them a significant asset. Dudley is a good player on a fair contract. Again, we were the only team in this equation that was compelled to act by forces outside our control. If the Suns couldn't get Bledsoe for Dudley, or an asset from us, they could still certainly do better than a distant 2nd round pick and 'sweetener'.

It's far-fetched because we did not have the ammo to land Bledsoe without doing one of the following things:

1) Trade Henson
2) Trade Giannis
3) Trade next year's pick
4) Absorb Deandre Jordan's contract

Some people might be willing to do one of those things. I'm not one of them. You could add a provisional 5 (Trade Ersan), if you can find a team willing to take him and give the Suns some young assets or picks. I didn't include Trade Sanders because it's an obvious non-starter.

I guess the Suns are just smarter than the rest of the league because as already stated Bledsoe netted Redick + Dudley + taking Butlers contract - 2nd round pick. your 1-4 are much more out there - especially #4 because Jordan is on the Clippers not the Suns

The only disadvantage the Bucks has is that they were weak at the SG spot the Clips wanted to pursue so they has to get another team involved cause apparently the Clips wanted more than one shooter. Thus the Suns.

If you dont want to give a lottery protected 2015 pick to the Suns or even a little more because Bledsoe isn't that good fine. But then your thesis also then claims the Suns are much smarter than you too.

Anyway you look at it the asset was available and was eventually sold at a price much lower than any of the scenarios you claim would have had to happen. This basically confirms the fact that everyone, including yourself just takes it for granted the Bucks are so incompetent that they would have to pay so much more to acquire an asset than any other team.

I'm going to have to cop to the fact that I don't understand much of what you just said. Can you explain why you think my line of thinking implies the Suns are smarter?

Here's what I think: you're dramatically underrating the allure of adding two top shelf role players to a team on the brink of the WCF, you're underrating the value of Dudley as a player in general, and you're drastically understating the difference in trade value between a player signed to a below market contract and a UFA.

Again, you laid out a scenario in which the Suns would trade Dudley for a distant 2nd rounder and a sweetener. I'm simply telling you that it'd better be pretty damn sweet.

People want to pretend that because the Suns traded Dudley and the Bucks traded Redick, those two teams and players were bargaining from equivalent positions, and they just weren't. They weren't. Let's break it down one final time.

There are four parties with agency here.

1. The Clippers. Bledsoe is under contract. Butler is under contract. The Clippers can at any time deal them. If they don't deal them, they still have them to deal later. If the Clippers step away from this deal, there will be other deals. They have no reason to trade these players unless they really want what's coming back.

2. The Suns. Dudley is under contract. Same idea.

3. Redick. An unrestricted free agent, he can sign with any team in the league whenever he chooses. He's restricted in the amount of money he can get paid by certain teams unless the Bucks agree to participate in a S&T. By turning down the largest offer he's received (from the Bucks), he's shown that money is not his top priority.

4. The Bucks. The Bucks are a facilitator between the above three players. For this service, they can be compensated at an amount to be negotiated. If they step away, they potentially can work out a different sign and trade down the line, but they have no control over whether or not Redick's agent ever calls them again.

What about this scenario makes anybody think the Bucks could expect to stonewall and get rewarded with Bledsoe? Or just casually offer up some minor asset? Do you see the proportionality problem here? The Clippers outlay of Bledsoe is the largest value piece in this trade. The Bucks agreement to part with Redick's Bird rights, a player who had already outright refused to sign with them, was the smallest. If we don't trade the Clippers Redick, the Clippers can still sign Redick, and for not that much less money. If the Suns don't trade the Clippers Dudley, the Clippers do not get Dudley, period. If we were going to be players in this deal, we would have had to step up with something to be seriously considered. Not just transparently empty threats.

Too long to read. I did gather that DrugBust has alot of influence in NBA front offices because most of them wanted to pay Redick his value as an above average starter in the league. Ah leverage.

Dammit meant to say

Ah leverage.

Absolute miracle Hambone the magnificent was able to waggle 2 2's out of those cyclonic headwinds you presented above. With charmed life of the facilitator, why ever be the aggressor? I get it now.

[ReasonablySober]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

Holy **** what were they thinking?

[WRau1]

lol @ the thought of Caron Butler selling tickets.

[sneakerdust]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

Holy **** what were they thinking?

Take it and like it...



or serve your detention @ Wausau West naughty boys!

[LUKE23]

6th seed means like 44+ wins. Don't see it.

[sneakerdust]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

Holy **** what were they thinking?

Take it and like it...



or serve your detention @ Wausau West naughty boys!

You can take this too and like it



Climb that mountain third leggers!

[sneakerdust]

Unrelated, but how horrendous is Yahoo's new layout? Yikes. It reminds me of an old geocities page or something.

Holy **** what were they thinking?

Take it and like it...



or serve your detention @ Wausau West naughty boys!

And one more thing....

OUT OF YOUR PJs and BACK TO THE OFFICE!!!

[Nebula1]

She's actually making some nice acquisitions.

[KidA24]

Lets look at teams who are over the lux http://storytellerscontracts.com/
Bos- a million over, probably not going to shell out assets to get under
BRK-Could care less about getting under
CHI-Again aren't going to do anything to get under
Lakers-Thats a maybe at best and Gasol for 15 mil in expirings could get it done
MIA-Hell no
NYK-No
OKC-No

Yea not really seeing a reason to keep cap space at this point in the off season.

I strongly believe OKC will make a move to get under the lux tax threshold.

probably a team I overlooked, I mean they traded harden to get out this type of situation. Good catch, but I think my point still holds true, only two teams LAL and OKC possibly looking to shed money. Bucks wouldn't have the expirings to get gasol and their would be an outside chance at OKC. Really don't see the harm in this trade

It's not just about shedding money. It's about having the flexibility to take on salary in a trade (say, a 3 team trade) and getting a better asset then crappy Caron Butler as a result of it.

Like, I don't know, playing the role of Phoenix in the Bucks/Clips/Phoenix trade.