Where do you rank Kobe all-time? (poll)

[Asianiac_24]

Kobe's teams have always been good to great offensively, even in his Smush Parker years. Kobe's way of playing is obviously successful, he has 5 **** rings.

Dwyane Wade was also at one point calling for more shots in the playoffs against the Pacers. There were talks of playing Ray Allen instead of Wade with LeBron because Wade didn't fit LeBron's play style. Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both sacrificed stats, but not LeBron. Gasol and Bynum sacrificed stats, but they both saw a rise in efficiency with Kobe, why is that not the case for Bosh and Wade? Bosh/Wade changed their whole game for LeBron, yet LeBron is more adaptable? How? Just because someone likes to pass doesn't mean he is more adaptable. LeBron is a lot more ball dominant than Kobe.

[B_Creamy]

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both sacrificed stats, but not LeBron. Gasol and Bynum sacrificed stats, but they both saw a rise in efficiency with Kobe, why is that not the case for Bosh and Wade?

1. Kobe didn't sacrifice stats either.
2. Wade and Bosh both had a career high FG% during the regular season. So it is the case for Bosh and Wade. Wade was injured during the postseason and Bosh was remarkably bad. The difference in post season play had nothing to do with LeBron changing his playing style.

Bosh/Wade changed their whole game for LeBron, yet LeBron is more adaptable? How?

1. Aside from a decrease in usage (Wade still had only .8% lower USG% than LeBron) there was not an enormous adaptation made by either Wade or Bosh. What did Wade do to better fit in with LeBron? Learn how to shoot? Certainly not. The main difference for Wade was a loss of ball handling duties (for good reason). Bosh was meant to be a jumpshooter. If LeBron wasted possesions feeding Bosh in the post (which was asked of Bosh in his first 2 seasons in Miami, but he never accepted the role of a post option) perhaps he would be sacrificing less of Bosh's talent but the team would suffer.

2. LeBron has arguably changed his game more than either of them, becoming a post option, spot up 3 point shooter and defensive anchor for these Miami teams. He's a better rebounder and post defender than he was at his most athletic in Cleveland. This is how LeBron has adapted.

3. LeBron becoming the undisputed primary ball handler and Bosh becoming a spot up shooter led to a +6.5 offense. Better than any Kobe championship team (even the Shaq led ones). I only bring this up because you mention how Kobe's team always did well offensively.

Just because someone likes to pass doesn't mean he is more adaptable. LeBron is a lot more ball dominant than Kobe.

Absolutely. Because LeBron is a better on ball player than Kobe. There's one player in the league I'd rather have as primary ball handler than LeBron (Chris Paul). It's like saying Magic is a lot more ball dominant. Of course he is, why wouldn't he be?

But Kobe has always been ball dominant, he's never had a real guard to compete with him since he became a superstar. Look what he did with Nash last year. Steve Nash & Kobe pick n' pop.

Where do you feel Kobe has shown himself to be "adaptable"?

[microfib4thewin]

Kobe's teams have always been good to great offensively, even in his Smush Parker years.

2005 - 7th in offense but last in defense
2012 - 10th in offense
2013 - 9th in offense but the 11th worst defense

In general, a team that plays bad defense has an easily chance to score. When you let the other team score 110+ a night they don't care if you score 100+ as long as they still beat you.

Kobe's way of playing is obviously successful, he has 5 **** rings.

Pippen has 6 rings, so he must be doing something that makes him more successful than Kobe, right?

Dwyane Wade was also at one point calling for more shots in the playoffs against the Pacers.

Wade averaged 16 points on 50% TS for last year's playoffs and the team has a +10.6 offensive rating when he is OFF the court. The question here is why you feel Wade's demand should be met when both his numbers as well as the team's numbers dropped with his presence. Gasol played terrible in the 2011 playoffs. If he had complained about lacking touches would you have listened to him?

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both sacrificed stats, but not LeBron.

Let's compare his 2008 season to last year.

2008 Lebron PER 36 - 19.5 FGA, 4.3 3PA, 9.2 FTA

2013 Lebron PER 36- 16.9 FGA, 3.3 3PA, 6.7 FTA

So he is cutting down on his shot attempts. Are you saying Lebron's stats wasn't 'sacrificed' because he has high efficiency, and if so, why do you feel that Lebron's efficiency hurts the team? As a reminder, this Heat team is 2nd in team offense, 2nd in SRS, had the second longest winning streak in history as well as the BEST EFG% in history. If Lebron's good stats resulted in the team playing better then there is no need to call for any sacrifice.

Gasol and Bynum sacrificed stats, but they both saw a rise in efficiency with Kobe

Kobe hasn't missed enough games in recent years to have a conclusive sample size on whether this is true or not.

[Woodsanity]

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic Johnson
Wilt
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron

I have Kobe at 10 and Lebron at 11. By next season Kobe will be 11 most likely. You can argue Kobe deserves to be over Hakeem but Hakeem was the higher impact player by a good margin. Kobe has more accolades due to playing on great teams and on a great franchise.

[Durins Baynes]

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic Johnson
Wilt
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron

I have Kobe at 10 and Lebron at 11. By next season Kobe will be 11 most likely. You can argue Kobe deserves to be over Hakeem but Hakeem was the higher impact player by a good margin. Kobe has more accolades due to playing on great teams and on a great franchise.

Your list is one of the more reasonable ones out there which still has Kobe in the top 10, which is basically where the pro-Kobe argument should be- maybe just at the tail end of the top 10, but not for long.

[trex_8063]

I've got him #10.

I realize there are differences in opinion on how to value things (rings vs. awards/honors, honors vs. statistical dominance, avgs vs. totals, peak dominance vs. longevity, this era vs. that era, etc). So for pretty much any player I don't think there is an absolute exact correct place to rank them, but rather an acceptable range.

For Kobe, I think it's in the 8-13 range. i.e. if you have him as high as #8 or as low as #13, I'd not argue you much on it, even though I have him at #10; those at least don't seem unreasonable to me.

Anything higher than #8 starts to seem pretty questionable to me (i.e. I think your credibility starts to slide). Anything lower than #13: credibility comes into question, imho.

[Durins Baynes]

Nah. I've got him 14, and the guys above him all have great cases.

[trex_8063]

Nah. I've got him 14, and the guys above him all have great cases.

OK, I'll open my range to 8-14; 14 isn't too bad. It's right on the fringe imo, though (by that I mean you cannot make a credible argument to put him any lower.....you CAN, however, make a credible argument to put him higher).

[emotional]

Of course you have him at 14 on the alltime list, Durins, but in your heart he is number #1

[Durins Baynes]

There's no argument whatever for him to be higher than 10-11, and even that is a huge stretch. You could rank him lower than 14 too, but 14 is about right.

[emotional]

I have Kobe in the 8-9 range and there is a reasonable argument over Lebron, Hakeem and maybe Bird. Shaq and Duncan are on the cusp of unreachable. Duncan won't be caught but if Kobe can get the all time scoring record and a few years of all-star player then he has a case over Shaq.

[Durins Baynes]

Well, you're right about Duncan and Shaq being unreachable. But then so are Bird, Hakeem and (soon) Lebron. Kobe doesn't peak anywhere near those guys, a fact that has been ignored through this whole thread by his supporters. All the guys in the top 10 (and some outside it) have seasons where we can point to them carrying a poor support cast to contention status, like the 1980 Celtics, or the 2002 and 2003 Spurs, or the 2009 and 2010 Cavs, or the 1994 Rockets, or the 1970 Bucks- where is Kobe's similar example? It doesn't exist. The stats don't favour him, the advanced stats don't favour him, the MVP voters never favoured him- I mean, either you believe it's all a conspiracy against Kobe, or you look reality in the face. The guy has volume scoring (not even that much volume scoring really, non-greats like Dantley were much more impressive as pure scorers), and that's basically it.