Moderators: Rich Rane, NyCeEvO
Boarder Patrol wrote:
Nominate: Paul George...did we all just forget about him?
DrazenForThree wrote:Boarder Patrol wrote:
Nominate: Paul George...did we all just forget about him?
what is there to forget?
His 41% shooting? His 3 turnovers a game? His 53 TS%? His 16 PER?
George is a really solid up and coming player. But he isnt a top 25 player. More top 40-50. He is insanely overhyped because indiana took the heat to 7 games. He was very ordinary on the season as a whole. He wasnt in that late tier of wings last season such as pierce.
basically the top 25 is rounded out by guys already on the list above.
Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.
George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.
And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)
NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).
Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.
nykballa2k4 wrote:NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).
Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.
What do you mean active? I mean Rose is not "active" yet since he has not played yet. Rondo and Kobe are both injured to start the season, but both are expected to make recoveries.
Kobe is already on the list.
Rich Rane wrote:I think we're all missing the point here. vc4pres needs to stop watching games.
DrazenForThree wrote:Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.
Thats correct. and still stands that he isnt a top 25 player. He is a really average offensive player. even with improvement he isnt really a big offensive asset to a team. outside of solid 3 point shooting he really doesnt add a ton on that end. super ineffecienct scoring and sloppy ball handling.George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.
Even in his prior 2 seasons he wasnt efficient offensively. he was still in the 54% range TS% and had a 16 PER. he was never better then ordinary offensively. Also, everyone who will make this top 25 list IS a primary option OR would/have handled being the primary option much better. Again, its no knock on george, just because you arent a top 25-30 player doesnt mean you suck.And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)
17 PER is still pretty average, so that doenst matter much. 17-4 dont really mean much either since:
1) his 17 points came on horrible efficency
2) his 4 assists came along with 3 turnovers
his defense is excellent, but his offense is just plain average, and projects to be not much better then average. and while thats still really good overall, it simply isnt top 25. he shouldnt be in the conversation.
daschysta wrote:DrazenForThree wrote:Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.
Thats correct. and still stands that he isnt a top 25 player. He is a really average offensive player. even with improvement he isnt really a big offensive asset to a team. outside of solid 3 point shooting he really doesnt add a ton on that end. super ineffecienct scoring and sloppy ball handling.George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.
Even in his prior 2 seasons he wasnt efficient offensively. he was still in the 54% range TS% and had a 16 PER. he was never better then ordinary offensively. Also, everyone who will make this top 25 list IS a primary option OR would/have handled being the primary option much better. Again, its no knock on george, just because you arent a top 25-30 player doesnt mean you suck.And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)
17 PER is still pretty average, so that doenst matter much. 17-4 dont really mean much either since:
1) his 17 points came on horrible efficency
2) his 4 assists came along with 3 turnovers
his defense is excellent, but his offense is just plain average, and projects to be not much better then average. and while thats still really good overall, it simply isnt top 25. he shouldnt be in the conversation.
Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?
Rich Rane wrote:I think we're all missing the point here. vc4pres needs to stop watching games.
NyCeEvO wrote:nykballa2k4 wrote:NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).
Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.
What do you mean active? I mean Rose is not "active" yet since he has not played yet. Rondo and Kobe are both injured to start the season, but both are expected to make recoveries.
Kobe is already on the list.
My bad.
Most people put their votes and nominations in two separate lines and therefore I forgot/didn't see your Rondo nomination.
I'll put both Rondo and George in the next round.
daschysta wrote:
Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?
vincecarter4pres wrote:It makes me sad Lopez came in this late, although looking at the rankings the only one that strikes me as awful is Noah.
I'm a big proponent of sometimes there being outliers, intangibles so strong, defense which is hard to quantify and plain old results in the form of wins and losses, even though at heart I'm a lower level stat geek... But... Well wait, let me get this out of the way first.... I am actually quite the fan of Noah as an in general and especially in relation to the specific things I've said above... But... I not only feel it's a little crazy to rank him directly above Lopez, but to have him anywhere in the top 30.
Now I think he's close to the literal last spot of said range, with some argument, but seriously?
Maybe this is just a player I have a big time differing of opinion on, but I'm sorry, I just can't feel that lofty ranking.
I get he's the heart and soul.
I get he's a great team/helpside defender/shot blocker with great hands and awareness when not asked to man up the best opposing big who happens to be a great offensive player.
I get he can pass great. Although under normal circumstances him and a similar player to him in Al Horford(who I feel is actually better overall and provides more impact), when in the playoffs or true pressure games you can play off him so hard this ability shrinks for most possessions besides broken plays and even quick opportunistic strikes you can't purposely run for them, this strength becomes a simple occasionally exploited add on.
I get he can block shots and guard the pick and roll, yet he's claimed as a defensive anchor and great man defender who can guard anyone in the post, yet this isn't true and he struggles versus other high level big men, both one on one self creators and stars who kill it given space and are fed the ball even though he's claimed as a stopper.
Noah is still awesome, the above is not meant to tear him down, but his limits are vast. He's incredibly overrated in the sense of an individual player.
He is the absolute perfect glue guy and 1a or more so 1b leader, which means a lot, which is combined with his actual basketball skills is why he should be a lock top 40 player and probably right around the extremely late 20's to early 30's...
But top 20?
Above some of the guys yet to be named, let alone a young rising stud he's directly one above?
I cannot buy it.
As a straight crude example/analogy, put Noah directly in Lopez's spot on that 12 win team... at best I think you see the same record. At worst, 3 or 4 games worse for an incomparable, unbreakable negative record and maybe something that crushes his psyche to where he loses some of the intangibles that make him who he is.
DrazenForThree wrote:daschysta wrote:
Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?
even if you want to throw away an entire MONTH (which if you do for any player makes them look great) his numbers still are far from elite. Again, no one is saying george is some scrub, he simply isnt top 25 worthy. 54 TS% is certainly not bad, but i mean you look at someone not voted in yet, pierce, and he is at 57%. you look at peirces PER, and its better.
thats not even talking about the wings already voted in like Hardem, James, Wade, Durant, etc... even if you take away that first month, george is simply to inefficient offensively, and the assists, while nice, cant be considered without talking about his poor ball handling and such a high amount of turnovers
George is around 38th in my rankings. id have no issue with him anywhere 30-40. which, as mentioned, is no small feat. but he isnt an elite wing, not close. like VC mentioned, he is closer to iguodala then he is those other guys
