Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Sir Psycho Sexy, I must say your nickname is catchy.

doclinkin does make a great observation. Free throws.

I think Vesely's biggest challenge now is mental strength, not physical strength.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[closg00]

I will be watching Jan & Tomas VS Spain on Saturday morning. I am looking forward to it actually.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/96072 ... t-schedule

[BarnabyJones]

NBA Guru @NBAGuru

Take note, Wiz fans: Jan Vesely been by far Czech Republic's best player through 2 games: 20.0 ppg, 57% FG, 10.5 rpg, 2.5 spg, 1.5 bpg.

[nuposse04]

NBA Guru @NBAGuru

Take note, Wiz fans: Jan Vesely been by far Czech Republic's best player through 2 games: 20.0 ppg, 57% FG, 10.5 rpg, 2.5 spg, 1.5 bpg.

He's playing with a bit more confidence and is actually carrying a pretty bad Czech team, which really, to me looks like it has atrocious floor spacing. Nobody in their right mind expects Jan to average 20/10 here, even per 36, but its evident he's finishing through contact a bit better and is at least taking more jumpers (although he's really streaky still). He'll never be #6 worthy...but at least it looks like he's trying to not be hot garbage anymore. Still, he should have started busting his ass 2 seasons ago. You can't coast through the NBA if you're skill-less and not a physical freak.

[TheKingOfVa360]

NBA Guru @NBAGuru

Take note, Wiz fans: Jan Vesely been by far Czech Republic's best player through 2 games: 20.0 ppg, 57% FG, 10.5 rpg, 2.5 spg, 1.5 bpg.

I watched the game vs Poland, I really feel Ves will break out this year. I think he finally understands the type of player he needs to be. He is looking like a poor mans Joakim Noah, a lot of hustle and energy.

[verbal8]

Is he playing SF or PF in international play?

Yi showed some promise in international play, so there isn't a guarantee that it translates to the NBA. If he is having serious confidence issues, maybe it does give him help in that regard.

NBA Guru @NBAGuru

Take note, Wiz fans: Jan Vesely been by far Czech Republic's best player through 2 games: 20.0 ppg, 57% FG, 10.5 rpg, 2.5 spg, 1.5 bpg.

I watched the game vs Poland, I really feel Ves will break out this year. I think he finally understands the type of player he needs to be. He is looking like a poor mans Joakim Noah, a lot of hustle and energy.

[GhostsOfGil]

Is he playing SF or PF in international play?

Yi showed some promise in international play, so there isn't a guarantee that it translates to the NBA. If he is having serious confidence issues, maybe it does give him help in that regard.

NBA Guru @NBAGuru

Take note, Wiz fans: Jan Vesely been by far Czech Republic's best player through 2 games: 20.0 ppg, 57% FG, 10.5 rpg, 2.5 spg, 1.5 bpg.

I watched the game vs Poland, I really feel Ves will break out this year. I think he finally understands the type of player he needs to be. He is looking like a poor mans Joakim Noah, a lot of hustle and energy.

According to Mike Prada, he's playing the 4 but spending a lot of time on the perimeter:

he often played on the perimeter in the Czech Republic's Flex system, which often saw them post up their guards or get perimeter players the ball after shuffle cuts and other motion sequences.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/9/5/ ... -overcomes
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/9/4/ ... asket-2013

I like the positive's but it's hard to get excited after watching 2 miserable years from him.

[nate33]

All of this talk of his offseason work and Euroleague performance is encouraging, but I'm still not expecting anything. The bottom line is that he needed to improve quite a bit just to get to the point where he's a worthwhile NBA journeyman who could be the 10th man on a decent team. He's got to improve a heck of a lot more than that before he gets to the point where he's a desirable NBA commodity who can't be easily replaced.

[closg00]

All of this talk of his offseason work and Euroleague performance is encouraging, but I'm still not expecting anything. The bottom line is that he needed to improve quite a bit just to get to the point where he's a worthwhile NBA journeyman who could be the 10th man on a decent team. He's got to improve a heck of a lot more than that before he gets to the point where he's a desirable NBA commodity who can't be easily replaced.

That's what I'm talkin about.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Vesely needs to go back to Europe if the Wizards keep misusing him, and the mostly-uninformed Wizards fans keep treating Jan poorly, as if Vesely drafted himself 6th. That was ERNIE'S FAULT.

If Randy Wittman keeps knocking him for having no confidence, while at the same time Randy Wittman keeps JERKING JAN AROUND, then Vesely needs to go back to Europe, and he should do so with the quickness. How is he jerking Vesely around? He treated him one way before the acquisition of Webster and the trade for Okafor and Ariza; and Randy Wittman has treated Jan Vesely differently and played him far less since.

This is Jan Vesely before the glut of SFs and veteran acquisitions:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyvz4kMNiTo[/youtube]

That guy was no Kenneth Faried or Kawhi Leonard, but JV was certainly a competent rookie. He started as they won 8 of 10 games to end the season. At that time, Vesely was the rookie NBA version of this guy who they drafted:

This is a compilation of the best dunks of Jan Vesely, also known as "The Czech Helicopter, as a player of KK Partizan Beograd.
"Kad Jan igra, svi smo veseli" ("When Jan plays, we are all joyful")

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyAcoQRoOkk[/youtube]

The Wizards drafted "a helicopter."

But AFTER THEY COULDN'T PLAY HIM AHEAD OF VETERANS as a helicopter, Randy Wittman and other coaches insisted Jan become "a tank".

I might come off as a jerk, but this is a helicopter:

And this is a tank:

A tank is very effective if it stays rooted and grounded. Its treads make it almost always go forward and its armor is thick. It weighs a whole lot more than a helicopter. It has a low center of mass and low center of gravity. Tanks knock down tall trees and trample earth, cars, whatever gets in their way. OTOH, an attack helicopter, such as an Apache or a Black Hawk, is good at air assault.

A helicopter can occasionally even bust up a tank.

http://www.geocities.ws/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4142/ah1tow.jpg

Jan's much more of a helicopter than a tank...

Unfortunately, post trades/acquitions, Jan was suddenly supposed to be ready to bang with the big guys in the paint as his primary role as a Wizard. I think this was a dumb idea and a recipe for failure. I think it was typical Wizards. hands, IIRC you called it a "mind f _ _ k". On that I TOTALLY AGREE.

Vesely had an achilles injury over the last summer. Then, when new veterans came he got the quick hook and less PT with every mistake. Vesely grew more and more afraid to miss free throws. He showed fear and this coaching staff IMO hated it. People call the guy unskilled and question his heart. Okay, he's a big boy and he needs to wear big boy pants...

I've raised three boys and know what it was like to change diapers for two of them. I remember pull ups and training pants. Just bought some Under Armour size 11 1/2 cleats for my middle son, who's 13. He's got some confidence/defiance/sick-of-dad/wants-to-pout in him IMO. But he's like everybody else, including Randy and Jan and me and you: IMPERFECT. He's a flawed dude. I also know sometimes he knows best what's best for him--but regardless, I'm dad. Son wears pants the way middle schoolers wear them. He's not supposed to think like a middle-aged dad. Vesely might not be clued in to Randy Wittman's ways or the NBA! Vesely isn't any older than the average college senior. He's got language and culture issues. He was a star in another league but he's on the bottom of the NBA food chain. Now he is supposed to wear NBA big boy pants? I can understand if he's still in training pants, so to speak, as far as NBA ball goes. Does that make me an apologist or Vesely enabler? I mostly disagree with those who question Jan's work ethic the past years and his skill level. I think Vesely has more skill than confidence, but what people see most is FEAR right now.

Personally, I think Vesely is what he is and that's darned good enough to be a VERY USEFUL player. He dunks in transition. I think JV will thrive with Maynor's passing and with Al Harrington shooting threes. I think Vesely needs to play a lot with Seraphin, because Kevin IS a bit intimidating, and they play very well together. Jan does have his own European swagger.



If I were coaching I'd make sure he did play some SF. I'd treat him like he could be the next Bobby Jones. I would tell him I think he needs to pick one brother to PUNK. Dunking might not be the way but a good hard foul, perhaps one swing or just some spasmodic IDGAF gesture to make folks think he's crazy might do the trick. Vesely needs to stop being afraid and just go HAM on someone. His teammates need to have his back. One time doing that could change his career path. Birdman Anderson scares people. Jan might be able to at least clinch the guy, like he did in this video: (see the first 10 secs only for this example)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbq0fSxtRG8[/youtube]

I don't want to make a guy an idiot or a flagrant fouler. I just think Vesely is way better than people think. He's just nice and was probably raised by civilized people. I think folks see his kindness as weakness. His coach doesn't respect him IMO. Vesely wants to play on the perimeter and I think Vesely is QUITE CORRECT about where he is most effective.

If things don't work out for Vesely with the Wizards that guy is going to LOVE playing basketball somewhere else.

THIS IS HOW VESELY SHOULD BE USED:

According to Mike Prada, he's playing the 4 but spending a lot of time on the perimeter:

he often played on the perimeter in the Czech Republic's Flex system, which often saw them post up their guards or get perimeter players the ball after shuffle cuts and other motion sequences.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/9/5/ ... -overcomes
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/9/4/ ... asket-2013

[nate33]

*sigh*

This is not worth arguing anymore. Suffice to say I disagree on many of these points and we have discussed them multiple times in this thread. Long story short: Vesely is not a SF. Vesely can't play SF because he lacks the skills. And Vesely's brief half-decent stint late in his rookie season was against teams that weren't trying and/or hadn't scouted him. Vesely has had opportunities several times in his 2nd year and never delivered. That's not Randy's fault.

[Dat2U]

I think CCJ is stuck in denial mode. All arguments have already been made. It's obvious to anyone with ability to be objective, that he doesn't have the offensive skill to be passable on the perimeter with John Wall (yeah, lets make sure we throw Vesely at SF so defenses can ignore him and key even more on stopping Wall). Also his run and the end of his rookie season was against competition that the Ft. Wayne Mad Ants would feel incredibly confident against.

I just can't get excited over a euroleague performance... and this is not to dissimilar from Yi's performance at FIBA two years ago. And we saw how much a guy who struggled with confidence was able to ride that wave of good feelings all the way until preseason when he had to face NBA competition again.

Just another thought. If Ernie was actually an evil genius looking to sabotage a franchise, he'd have put Yi & Vesely together, starting on the same front line. That would have been a train wreck worth watching. Two off the most charmin soft, mentally weak players you'd ever want to see. John Wall might of quit basketball if he had to put up with those two on the court together getting bitched slapped by the entire NBA over 82 games.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

*sigh*

This is not worth arguing anymore. Suffice to say I disagree on many of these points and we have discussed them multiple times in this thread. Long story short: Vesely is not a SF. Vesely can't play SF because he lacks the skills. And Vesely's brief half-decent stint late in his rookie season was against teams that weren't trying and/or hadn't scouted him. Vesely has had opportunities several times in his 2nd year and never delivered. That's not Randy's fault.

I disagree completely, nate.

He can play PF with a lot of his cuts coming from the perimeter, particularly when guards post up.

He also CAN play SF in some line ups. If the Wizards have Maynor, Rice, Vesely, Harrington, and Seraphin all on the floor I would call Jan the SF. You might argue that Al Harrington is the SF, but I say Vesely would be the SF. I also think that would be a cohesive unit. Vesely CAN play SF now that the Wizards have a legit stretch PF.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think CCJ is stuck in denial mode. All arguments have already been made. It's obvious to anyone with ability to be objective, that he doesn't have the offensive skill to be passable on the perimeter with John Wall (yeah, lets make sure we throw Vesely at SF so defenses can ignore him and key even more on stopping Wall). Also his run and the end of his rookie season was against competition that the Ft. Wayne Mad Ants would feel incredibly confident against.

I just can't get excited over a euroleague performance... and this is not to dissimilar from Yi's performance at FIBA two years ago. And we saw how much a guy who struggled with confidence was able to ride that wave of good feelings all the way until preseason when he had to face NBA competition again.

Just another thought. If Ernie was actually an evil genius looking to sabotage a franchise, he'd have put Yi & Vesely together, starting on the same front line. That would have been a train wreck worth watching. Two off the most charmin soft, mentally weak players you'd ever want to see. John Wall might of quit basketball if he had to put up with those two on the court together getting bitched slapped by the entire NBA over 82 games.

I know what I'm talking about just like the time I told you and practically everyone else Gilbert Arenas knows his body is breaking down and that is why he is opting out while injured. I said the dude was an injury risk who could put this team in cap hell for years.

I also knew what I was talking about when I predicted the acquisitions of Okafor and Ariza would set back young players and put their careers in peril. (I wasn't the only one who saw this coming. You and a few others IIRC predicted the very same thing). I predicted some young players would be made scapegoats. I was dead wrong to think the veterans wouldn't be better. Okafor and Ariza both are WAY BETTER than I thought they'd be. But I did know guys like Booker and Vesely would get their minutes pinched. The main thing wrong with Vesely is he's not as good as people want him to be, but FEW WERE COMPLAINING THE LAST SIX GAMES OF 2011-2012.

Vesely is a player who can blend in with others and not hurt a team. In fact, he can be a part of winning lineups. The Wizards have generally been better with Vesely ON THE COURT than off. Follows is a PLUS with Vesely for over 1100 minutes played.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS14.HTM

Follows is a MINUS with (only) 600 minutes played by Vesely.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12WAS14.HTM

But IF YOU REALLY LOOK CLOSELY virtually all of Vesely's MINUS came with Jordan Crawford on the court, and with Price, Pargo, or Temple as PG.

Dat, you can say I'm not objective and I'm in denial and I will say I respect the hell out of you but I think you're projecting. I know what I'm talking about this time. Vesely can be very useful if the Wizards use him right and if the fans get off his sack. He's not Andray Blatche. He's not Juwan Howard when the fans turned on him. Vesely didn't want to miss free throws and he got scared IMO. He also went through a bunch of changes, few if any were things he could have prevented.

Vesely is good enough to help this team.

[Ruzious]

Success on a Czech team almost always translates to success on an NBA team. Why, it's happened so many times, I can't even count them.

Nothing has changed until/if he does it in the NBA.

Right now, he's no better than Richard Howell, who was just signed as an undrafted free agent by Portland.

Frankly, I'd rather Vesely was in DC right now working under the Wiz supervision.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The way I see it I've got luck on my side predicting Vesely will bounce back.

Dat was right and I was wrong about Pecherov. Dat said Stewie was heading nowhere but back to Europe when I was seeing his three point shooting, with decent rebounding as leading to future success.

I was so wrong that time.

I also said the Bobcats were gonna be good last season.

Between my outrageous 53-win for the Wizards and Vesely having a bounce back; I'm due to be right on at least one of those. And errrbody knows I'm trippin' on the 53 wins.

That means it's virtually a LOCK that I'm right about Vesely.

[hands11]

Good points by both sides but...

The Clock is Ticking
Ves has a $4,469,547 option. Everything will be weighed against that at this point. They have until Oct 31 to decide. This is the driving forces that will determine his future on the Wizards and maybe in the league.

So if they decline his option, he becomes an UFA ?

[nate33]

He can play PF with a lot of his cuts coming from the perimeter, particularly when guards post up.

He also CAN play SF in some line ups. If the Wizards have Maynor, Rice, Vesely, Harrington, and Seraphin all on the floor I would call Jan the SF. You might argue that Al Harrington is the SF, but I say Vesely would be the SF. I also think that would be a cohesive unit. Vesely CAN play SF now that the Wizards have a legit stretch PF.

It doesn't matter what you label him. If you put him on the floor with Maynor, Rice, Harrington and Seraphin, Vesely will be guarded by the opponent's PF. Actually, the opponent will probably go small and put a SF on the floor to match up with Vesely. That way, they'd get all the floor spacing benefits of a small ball lineup, without any of the defensive problems because Vesely isn't a threat to exploit his size advantage over the opposing SF.

If the Wizards posted up Harrington of Seraphin, the other team would double off of Vesely and put a stop to it.

Vesely is the exact opposite of a mismatch. Instead of giving us any mismatch advantages, he only gives the other team mismatch advantages without any similar benefits coming our way.

[hands11]

He can play PF with a lot of his cuts coming from the perimeter, particularly when guards post up.

He also CAN play SF in some line ups. If the Wizards have Maynor, Rice, Vesely, Harrington, and Seraphin all on the floor I would call Jan the SF. You might argue that Al Harrington is the SF, but I say Vesely would be the SF. I also think that would be a cohesive unit. Vesely CAN play SF now that the Wizards have a legit stretch PF.

It doesn't matter what you label him. If you put him on the floor with Maynor, Rice, Harrington and Seraphin, Vesely will be guarded by the opponent's PF. Actually, the opponent will probably go small and put a SF on the floor to match up with Vesely. That way, they'd get all the floor spacing benefits of a small ball lineup, without any of the defensive problems because Vesely isn't a threat to exploit his size advantage over the opposing SF.

If the Wizards posted up Harrington of Seraphin, the other team would double off of Vesely and put a stop to it.

Vesely is the exact opposite of a mismatch. Instead of giving us any mismatch advantages, he only gives the other team mismatch advantages without any similar benefits coming our way.

The counter to that would be to have Nene at center. Nene is an excellent passer and while Ves doesn't have much offense, the one thing he does do well offensively is pick and cut to the basket for dunks. You put him out there with a passing PG (we have two now), Rice as a range shooter that can also drive (or Beal), an experienced SF/PF S4 in Al Harrington and a passing experience big in Nene who can also curl to the basket, and I think you can get useful minutes from Ves as a glue guy setting picks, cutting, passing and running the court.

Maynor, Rice/Beal, Harrington, Ves, Nene

I would play Kevin with Okafor

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It doesn't matter what you label him. If you put him on the floor with Maynor, Rice, Harrington and Seraphin, Vesely will be guarded by the opponent's PF. Actually, the opponent will probably go small and put a SF on the floor to match up with Vesely. That way, they'd get all the floor spacing benefits of a small ball lineup, without any of the defensive problems because Vesely isn't a threat to exploit his size advantage over the opposing SF.

If the Wizards posted up Harrington of Seraphin, the other team would double off of Vesely and put a stop to it.

Vesely is the exact opposite of a mismatch. Instead of giving us any mismatch advantages, he only gives the other team mismatch advantages without any similar benefits coming our way.

nate, I think the jumpers that Vesely demonstrated he can hit in SL will become a game changer if he's teamed with Seraphin and Harrington. Jan is tall, has long arms, and has legitimate range on his jump shot.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/7/20 ... on-wizards

"I think he opened up a lot of eyes on our staff," Cassell said. "Our staff understands that, if he plays the way he played the last 4-5 games, he can get some minutes."

Third-year performances in Summer League don't often predict much, but Vesely finally started playing like the guy the Wizards thought they'd get in 2011. He was active on the offensive glass, usually on point with his defensive rotations and even showed the improvements in his jump shot. Averaging 12 points and seven rebounds on 59 percent shooting, he was clearly the Wizards' best player.

Vesely didn't hit threes but he hit some really nice "Dirk shots". I think he can do this in NBA games if teams sag off of him to double up on Seraphin, Harrington, and even Okafor or Nene.