How should we rebuild?

[Durins Baynes]

I understand that Denver fans are annoyed at what they feel is a lack of respect for a team who just won 57 games, and on paper didn't lose that much talent. However I think the Nuggets are probably going to miss the playoffs next year, and should keep an open mind about tanking a little bit to improve their pick as things go south. There are a number of factors that cumulatively suggest the Nuggets are in trouble:
1) The loss of George Karl for Brian Shaw, a relatively unproven coach. Line-up management and ego control was something Karl needed to be very good at with your deep team, and I think Shaw is going to struggle to manage it nearly as well for his first year here.
2) The loss of Iggy (arguably your most consistently impactful player), Brewer (who was a solid role player for 2000+ minutes for you) and Kosta (an underrated switch big) are reasonably significant losses for a team who won last year using depth (a big help for outrunning opponents in your high altitude home arena), and who haven't really done much to replace those guys.
3) Management is likely to pressure Shaw to play McGee more, something Karl resisted. Maybe a good move for the future, but short term likely to cost you games, and
4) I felt the Nuggets overachieved a little bit last year, getting on that hot streak, and having that coincide with some other teams who were coasting. The Nuggets last year felt more like a 50-52 win team who just played over their heads a little, with all the expected shortcomings really being evident in the playoffs.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Nuggets won 37 games next year, and I'd be unsurprised if they won 47 too. With that sort of outlook I think the Nuggets will keep an open mind to dropping a few games if they start to slump early, and they'll be right to do so. A few home run low lotto picks in the next few years would go a long way towards helping reconstituting the team into a contender.

[ujirifan]

the nuggets also played at the 2nd fastest pace in the league, however if you want to discuss the nuggets being the top scoring team, do you also want to discuss them being the 23rd best team in points per game given up. Or do you realize that the pace they play at considerably helps them be the number 1 scoring team in the league, however when the game slows down they get destroyed in the half court game on offense.

Also maybe you do not know about Arthur, he is an elite pick and roll defender, which is the nuggets 2nd biggest issue on defense.

One last thing, Igoudala talks about how in the Nuggets system he was often asked to guard 2 players at one time, so please tell me again how the system the Nuggets ran on defense had no affect on their defense, and changing it to where each player is only asked to guard 1 player should improve the entire team's defense.

These are serious questions and statements, right? InFcredible?

First, since you read my post with Iggy's quotes, you saw - but conveniently chose to ignore - that despite the pace which had them giving up so many points even while posting the 5TH best scoring differential in the league, they were 11th in the league in defensive efficiency.

Secondly, do you think that Arthur is going to get anywhere near the PT that Iggy got OR THAT his alleged greatness at defending the pick and roll is going to be as valuable as Iggy's overall D last year?

And, of course, you again ignore the cold, hard fact that Foye is a poor defender, Nate is a liability on D, ESPECIALLY if they play him at the same time with either Ty or Andre and Hickson, despite being a good rebounder, is a stiff on D as well.

[pickIBL]

[

Denver needs more scoring????

I can tell you that the idea of Deng as a starting PF is an incredibly dumb idea.

Reading comprehension needs some work. Go actually do your homework instead of looking up player stats (as basketball is actually a team game) and see how poor Denver's outside shooting and foul shooting was. It was the club's Achilles heel. As I said.. Denver needs a two guard that can shoot (Iggy can score but he can't really shoot, learn the difference). Brewer could only hit some corner threes... he was terrible from every other spot. Iggy was clanking... and on top of that he was shooting foul shots more like Dwight Howard. Every player has weaknesses and you need to stop glossing over them. Iggy can't shoot... Denver needs a 2 guard... not 3. And spending over 50 million dollars on a guy about to be over 30 whose entire game is based on athleticism would have been a major risk. Even those in the Iggy fan club acknowledge the obvious.

As for Deng at the 4... this isn't 1985 or 1995... the game has evolved away from pounding the ball inside for the most part... and low post moves like the dream shake are long gone. So you watching the Bulls in 1965 would be rather irrelevant. And this isn't the Chicago Bulls... go look at some Denver Nuggets history in 1985 and see who was playing and got it done for them at the time for Coach Moe.

Starters Dunn 6-4, English 6-7, Natt 6-6, Lever 6-3, and Cooper was the 6-10 center. So even in 85 Deng could have fit right in on that team.

Finally, this is not sour grapes or a pissing contest about putting down Iggy... or saying he was a bad player... or assigning him blame... it involves some higher order thinking about team fit... how athletes age... and spending over 50 million on one player under this new CBA.

[ujirifan]

Reading comprehension needs some work. Go actually do your homework instead of looking up player stats (as basketball is actually a team game) and see how poor Denver's outside shooting and foul shooting was. It was the club's Achilles heel. As I said.. Denver needs a two guard that can shoot (Iggy can score but he can't really shoot, learn the difference). Brewer could only hit some corner threes... he was terrible from every other spot. Iggy was clanking... and on top of that he was shooting foul shots more like Dwight Howard. Every player has weaknesses and you need to stop glossing over them. Iggy can't shoot... Denver needs a 2 guard... not 3. And spending over 50 million dollars on a guy about to be over 30 whose entire game is based on athleticism would have been a major risk. Even those in the Iggy fan club acknowledge the obvious. As for Deng at the 4... this isn't 1985 or 1995... the game has evolved away from pounding the ball inside for the most part... and low post moves like the dream shake are long gone. So you watching the Bulls in 1965 would be rather irrelevant. And this isn't the Chicago Bulls... go look at some Denver Nuggets history in 1985 and see who was playing and got it done for them at the time for Coach Moe. Starters Dunn 6-4, English 6-7, Natt 6-6, Lever 6-3, and Cooper was the 6-10 center. So even in 85 Deng could have fit right in on that team.Finally, this is not sour grapes or a pissing contest about putting down Iggy... or saying he was a bad player... or assigning him blame... it involves some higher order thinking about team fit... how athletes age... and spending over 50 million on one player under this new CBA.

You are really a gutless wonder, as in spout anything that comes to your mind while NEVER responding to points made that you obviously have no answer for, such as the Nugz being 11th in defensive efficiency last year.

The guy who shot 38-76 overall, 14-29 from 3, 72% from the line and averaged 18 PPG on 12.7 SPG against G.S. must have been an impersonator, right? That clearly COULD NOT have been Iggy, the lousy shooter. Before you state the tired old "one P.O. series means nothing compared to the regular season", let me remind you of something else nobody here seems to recognize as cognitive dissonance. IF the 57 regular season wins are rendered meaningless by the 1st round exit, HTF is it that the guy who played better than any Nugget against G.S. is the one who "doesn't fit/is the problem"?

Why do you not have the - what I'd normally call intellectual - honesty to acknowledge that, while you might hope that Brian Shaw's obvious interest in improving the team D is going to work, the players that JK and his new GM brought in - Arthur's pick n roll "prowess" notwithstanding - did anything but improve the team's defensive talent, not to mention that if betting the store on JaVale to be a credible/much improved starting center turns out to be a loser, the Nugz are F____D big time.

You did, however, choose to display your most fatuous self by the bolded statement above, stating about Deng that "this isn't 1985 or 1995" and then turning around and talking about the Nuggets of the 80's.

The simple fact of the matter is that the all out way in which Deng plays lends itself to him wearing down and/or getting injured. Playing 100% of his minutes, even if they were reduced from 39 to 34, at PF rather than 20% or so at that position as he has, would be a surefire recipe for having him on IR.

[corona]

I understand that Denver fans are annoyed at what they feel is a lack of respect for a team who just won 57 games, and on paper didn't lose that much talent. However I think the Nuggets are probably going to miss the playoffs next year, and should keep an open mind about tanking a little bit to improve their pick as things go south. There are a number of factors that cumulatively suggest the Nuggets are in trouble:
1) The loss of George Karl for Brian Shaw, a relatively unproven coach. Line-up management and ego control was something Karl needed to be very good at with your deep team, and I think Shaw is going to struggle to manage it nearly as well for his first year here.
2) The loss of Iggy (arguably your most consistently impactful player), Brewer (who was a solid role player for 2000+ minutes for you) and Kosta (an underrated switch big) are reasonably significant losses for a team who won last year using depth (a big help for outrunning opponents in your high altitude home arena), and who haven't really done much to replace those guys.
3) Management is likely to pressure Shaw to play McGee more, something Karl resisted. Maybe a good move for the future, but short term likely to cost you games, and
4) I felt the Nuggets overachieved a little bit last year, getting on that hot streak, and having that coincide with some other teams who were coasting. The Nuggets last year felt more like a 50-52 win team who just played over their heads a little, with all the expected shortcomings really being evident in the playoffs.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Nuggets won 37 games next year, and I'd be unsurprised if they won 47 too. With that sort of outlook I think the Nuggets will keep an open mind to dropping a few games if they start to slump early, and they'll be right to do so. A few home run low lotto picks in the next few years would go a long way towards helping reconstituting the team into a contender.

i personally think players will trust a coach that's played in the league as an average starter/6th man type, who has rings as a player and an assistant coach and with the overall life/basketball background that shaw has......as compared to karl who's style has never proved to win anything, barely made it in the league when he did play, loves to overplay hustle guys that are barely making it in the league....as they remind him of himself, gets downright outcoached by a rookie in the playoffs (mark jackson), and has never shown a penchant for handling egos, despite what the media says.

we've had endless discussion about how impactful iguodala really is, i don't need to expand on that anymore.
randy foye easily replaces the production of brewer. he has a higher career PER, better TS%, better eFG%. and that's taking into account that brewer gets a good percentage of his buckets off cherry picks. oh....and he's not that good a defender because he has terrible defensive principles and gambles excessively, to say the least.

koufos is replaced by mozgov, who didn't play much last year but doesn't lack the talent to play in this league or be at koufos's mediocre level. and we also signed hickson, to add even more depth. i don't know how anyone could say lack of depth is a concern....we arguably have too much depth at this point, particularly when gallo comes back.

i really don't think mcgee playing 7-10 more minutes a game is going to negatively effect the outcome, as compared to those minutes going to koufos....or karl's tiny lineups with faried at C and gallo at PF with two pgs. the dude does post a PER of 20 the last 2 seasons. even with dumb plays here or there, it's undeniable that his length greatly effects the game in a positive way on both ends of the court for the nuggets.

the nuggets winning streak coincided with them having a weak schedule. as compared to the early part of the season where they had an insanely difficult schedule and played closer to a .500 level. if you shuffled the schedule up some, i'd venture to say they'd still beat the teams they did, and win in the mid-50's.

[pickIBL]

done feeding the troll...

[corona]

The guy who shot 38-76 overall, 14-29 from 3, 72% from the line and averaged 18 PPG on 12.7 SPG against G.S. must have been an impersonator, right? That clearly COULD NOT have been Iggy, the lousy shooter. Before you state the tired old "one P.O. series means nothing compared to the regular season", let me remind you of something else nobody here seems to recognize as cognitive dissonance. IF the 57 regular season wins are rendered meaningless by the 1st round exit, HTF is it that the guy who played better than any Nugget against G.S. is the one who "doesn't fit/is the problem"?

holy crap, it's not that simple.

iguodala left a better offer on the table. get it through your head.
how much more are you willing to pay him to get him to stay here, even though we all know that playoff performance will likely never be replicated, given the law of averages and where he's at in his career.

iguodala obviously wasn't the reason we lost to GSW, he had a great series and we still didn't win. fact remains, signing him to a huge contract when he's 30 years old, when he doesn't have the offensive weapons to compete as his body slows down.....that's not a step this team wants to go in. that's great by me. i've watched this team get burdened by athletic defensive players who are aging....its not fun.

please go cheer for chicago or something until halfway through the season. then we can continue to discuss if these offseason moves were as catastrophic as you make them seem.

[Durins Baynes]

Obviously the proof will be in the pudding, and we'll soon see what happens. But for my money the Nuggets remind me a lot of the 2005 Sonics, who in the offseason lost some underrated assets (including their coach) and fell back to earth the next season.

[kinein]

I for one was shocked and am still shocked by all the moves made by the Nuggets this off-season.