Top 25 Players Pt.III - Recap and Discussion Thread

[NyCeEvO]

Here is the final top 25 players list that were voted in:

Top 25 Players Pt.II
1) LBJ
2) KD
3) CP3
4) D12
5) TD
6) Harden
7) Curry
8) Melo
9) Kobe
10) TP
--------------------------------
11) D-Wade
12) D-Will
13) Dirk
14) Westbrook
15) D-Rose
16) M.Gasol
17) Love
18) LMA
19) Noah
20) Lopez
21) Griffin
22) KG
23) Kyrie
24) P.George
25) Pierce


You can use this thread to post your personal top 25 list and talk about how overrated some players are and who got snubbed.

I'll post my personal top 25 players soon, but I just have one question:

How do you leave this guy out of the top 25!?!?:

[therealbig3]

DrazenforThree mentioned Bosh as well. I don't see what the big deal is. I've long been on the Bosh is underrated bandwagon...but I think these past playoffs really showed something about him...he really is as soft as people say. He can't really create his own offense (I used to have him ranked over LMA, actually, but LMA actually has a low post game and doesn't rely 90% on midrange jumpers). And defensively, he IS underrated and is actually one of the better defensive big men in the league imo (because of his mobility), but let's talk about Paul George now, who has been getting complaints for ranking so high. George is clearly a better and more impactful defensive player than Bosh. And offensively, I'd take George as well. George isn't a great offensive player, but he does some things that are pretty valuable...he's a decent ball handler who can create on his own somewhat, he's a fantastic finisher, and he's a very good outside shooter. That's basically the SF version of Chris Bosh, with better defense. I have no issue with him being ranked over Bosh.

[therealbig3]

With that said, Bosh probably does make my list, lol, because I think Noah got overrated.

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Dwight Howard
5. Stephen Curry
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Deron Williams
8. Tony Parker
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. James Harden
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Tim Duncan
14. Russell Westbrook
15. Derrick Rose
16. Kobe Bryant
17. Marc Gasol
18. Lamarcus Aldridge
19. Kyrie Irving
20. Blake Griffin
21. Brook Lopez
22. Kevin Love
23. Paul George
24. Paul Pierce
25. Chris Bosh

Needless to say, a lot of players on this list are interchangeable.

[Paradise]

I think the list is pretty dead on. It probably gets very debatable starting from 15 to 25 but Bosh was incredibly inconsistent all season long.

Only a few changes that I would make but it's still a toss up either way.

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Dwight Howard
5. James Harden
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Tony Parker
8. Deron Williams
9. Stephen Curry
10. Carmelo Anthony
11. Tim Duncan
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. Russell Westbrook
15. Kobe Bryant
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Marc Gasol
18. Blake Griffin
19. Brook Lopez
20. Paul George
21. Derrick Rose
22. LaMarcus Aldridge
23. Kevin Love
24. Chris Bosh
25. Paul Pierce

[vincecarter4pres]

I love Steph Curry, but I don't love him in the top 10, right outside it though.

I voiced my opposition to Duncan this high in the thread in which he was voted in. He had a top 10 season last year, but this is a top 10 current players, as in going forward this season and although I don't think he tumbled to some scrub, last year was almost definitely an aberration. He's been in that 15 to 25 range for the last few seasons prior and that is likely where he lands again this year.

Wade and Deron are still in that top 10.

What about Kobe? He's old and coming off a disappointing season team success wise where he chased a young free agent superstar out of town and then blew out his Achilles. How do we throw Rose at the bottom of the 20, hell even Love or Aldridge and then anoint Kobe still atop the mountain? There's room for big time drop-off. I will say I have trouble ranking him myself. If he didn't mess his ankle up, I'd have him a touch higher then he on this list.

Noah has no place in a top 25 IMHO. None. Right outside it maybe, but I think we should be talking in the early 30's to maybe 40th range. He's a very good player and his leadership and intangibles are strong, but that is mainly what gets him into the range I propose, without those he probably isn't even top 50.

I have some beef with Westbrook this high. I'd probably slide him all the way down right below Lopez and I'd have Lopez above Griffin.


Biggest snub?
Probably Rondo, although looking at the overall list, I don't know who I can say really shouldn't be there, or who he should be in there over. Every player on that list is better then him. I don't even love Pierce this high and yet I still think he's better then Rondo.

Of course Bosh and Hibbert need mention in that category as well.

How about Al Horford?

Ty Lawson is a guy who needs some real love in this discussion as well.

A few honorable mentions:

Mike Conley
Serge Ibaka
Josh Smith
Nicolas Batum



To wrap things up my top breakout candidates in random order, who have a very real chance to crack this list by the end of next season:

Larry Sanders
Bradley Beal
Ricky Rubio
Jeremy Lamb
Kawhi Leonard
Damian Lillard
Derrick Favors
Gordon Hayward
Klay Thompson
John Wall
Andre Drummond
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist

[jeff1624]

Bosh can't create his own offense? He was the main guy in toronto and averaged over 20+ ppg with excellent efficiency five straight seasons. It's not his fault Miami uses him as a spot up jumpshooter.

I have no idea why Noah and George are on there. George is still a really inefficient player who disappears for large stretches. And Noah is so overrated it isn't even funny. Lopez outplayed him (badly) in 5 out of the 7 games... but it doesn't matter because Noah is tough! and has a lot of heart!... Bulls***... he's a glorified role player who is really bad on the offensive end since he can't create his own shot, isn't super athletic, turns the ball over a ton and doesn't get to the line as much as he should since he averages 4 ORebs per game.

-I would drop george and Noah off completely:

-I would lower Curry, TP and westbrook about 3-4 spots each. Duncan should drop 1 or 2 spots.

-Dirk, Love and LMA should be higher.

[therealbig3]

Bosh can't create his own offense? He was the main guy in toronto and averaged over 20+ ppg with excellent efficiency five straight seasons. It's not his fault Miami uses him as a spot up jumpshooter.

Yeah, on mediocre teams. And in the playoffs, he saw a stark fall-off in his efficiency. His game doesn't translate against tougher defenses as the #1 option. I think someone like LMA could have done better either in Toronto or in Miami instead of Bosh, and I think LMA was ranked right where he should be, at 18. I have Bosh at 25.

Also, who's to say Bosh is even that same guy that he was in Toronto anymore? He was freakishly quick and athletic and was able to get to the rim and generate a ton of FTs. Isn't it possible that he's lost a step as he's gotten older and put more miles on his body? Even LeBron's clearly declined athletically from what he was in Cleveland.

[jeff1624]

Bosh can't create his own offense? He was the main guy in toronto and averaged over 20+ ppg with excellent efficiency five straight seasons. It's not his fault Miami uses him as a spot up jumpshooter.

Yeah, on mediocre teams. And in the playoffs, he saw a stark fall-off in his efficiency. His game doesn't translate against tougher defenses as the #1 option. I think someone like LMA could have done better either in Toronto or in Miami instead of Bosh, and I think LMA was ranked right where he should be, at 18. I have Bosh at 25.

Also, who's to say Bosh is even that same guy that he was in Toronto anymore? He was freakishly quick and athletic and was able to get to the rim and generate a ton of FTs. Isn't it possible that he's lost a step as he's gotten older and put more miles on his body? Even LeBron's clearly declined athletically from what he was in Cleveland.

Chris Bosh is 29... not 39. He's very much in his prime and it's obvious why he isn't getting as many touches/plays ran for him since he's playing with the worlds greatest basketball player and another top 10 player when healthy. Chris Bosh isn't a number 1 option... I never said he was. But he can very much create his own offense. The fact that he did so on a mediocre raptors team doesn't diminish the fact that he can do so. Lopez played on sh*tty teams before this year; doesn't mean that he can't create his own offense. The same applies to Bosh.

Bosh had a really bad postseason, but I blame Spoelstra (who I think is a bottom 10 coach in the league) more than anything. He has Bosh standing 20 feet away in no mans land instead of giving him the ball so he could drive every other 3rd/4th posession

And Lebron's lost a step? That's news to me. He just had his most efficient season ever, a historic one at that. Lebron is in his prime both athletically and skill wise.

[vincecarter4pres]

To add to that, Bosh is what made those Toronto teams mediocre for the most part. Without Bosh they were atrocious. Look at some of those rosters, where Mo Peterson or Alvin Williams were the second best player? Mid 30's Antonio Davis? Calderon? BARGS??


His current role and body of work be damned, Bosh gets severely underrated.

[exculpatory]

Small Forwards

1. Bron = Correct
2. KD = Correct
8. Melo = Too high
24. George = Incorrect = Top 25-35 player until he improves O game
5. Truth = EVEN at age 36 in 10/2013, he is arguably STILL Top 15-20. He had fabulous advanced stats in the RS - especially after the ASG/after Rondo went down when he had to become the primary playmaker as well as the primary scorer & amazingly led the Celtics to close to the best record in the NBA in Feb-March combined. Before the last year or so, he was STILL the better all around player compared with Melo (still primarily a gifted scorer). As Paul continues to age, Deng, Granger & a couple of others probably will outrank him - but he has PLENTY left, may make the All Star team for the 11th time, & will join with DWill et al in leading the Nets to a banner this season.

My thoughts on bigs, shooting guards & points to follow when I have time later. I hate rankings encompassing all positions simultaneously.

[NyCeEvO]

I'm going back and forth on a few slots but this is my current top 25 list.

1. LBJ
2. KD
3. CP3
4. D12
5. Harden
6. Melo
7. TP
8. Wade (if relatively; would be higher if he's very healthy)
9. Curry
10. D-Will
11. Rose (hard to give placement due to injury)
12. Kobe (hard to give placement due to injury)
13. TD
14. M.Gasol
15. K.Love
16. K.Irving
17. Westbrook
18. Dirk
19. KG
20. Lopez
21. Bosh
22. Horford
23. LMA
24. Hibbert
25. B.Griffin

[DrazenForThree]

Here is the final top 25 players list that were voted in:

Top 25 Players Pt.II
1) LBJ
2) KD
3) CP3
4) D12
5) TD
6) Harden
7) Curry
8) Melo
9) Kobe
10) TP
--------------------------------
11) D-Wade
12) D-Will
13) Dirk
14) Westbrook
15) D-Rose
16) M.Gasol
17) Love
18) LMA
19) Noah
20) Lopez
21) Griffin
22) KG
23) Kyrie
24) P.George
25) Pierce


You can use this thread to post your personal top 25 list and talk about how overrated some players are and who got snubbed.

I'll post my personal top 25 players soon, but I just have one question:

How do you leave this guy out of the top 25!?!?:

Yeah Bosh left off and george on the list is just flat out insane. Bosh is FAR superior to george. its a crime Horford got snubbed as well

[NyCeEvO]

The only reason I have Bosh ranked so low is because we don't know how he'd fare as a #1 option at this point in his career.

In MIA, he only has the opportunity to showcase a portion of his full repertoire. Even though it's not his fault, I don't think it's right to extrapolate his rate of improvement from his earlier years to the present.

While I'm confident that a present day #1 option version of Bosh would rank higher on the top 25 list, it's impossible to determine how high he would be.

[vincecarter4pres]

Bosh should be on here pretty much, but my beef with him high on any list like this and my pause to even put him higher then exactly 26 is his rebounding has fallen off a cliff to where it's pretty much worse then Lopez's even though he isn't asked to do much scoring and the such and he's been just flatout owned way too many times in big games on both ends of the floor.

And I get Spols pulling him out to the wings affects his rebounding numbers, but not to the shooting guard levels they've become.

Lopez is a poor rebounder. Maybe not as bad as it seems on the surface, but he is, at least defensively. Bosh never was, now he's been one of the worst high usage big men rebounders out there the last 3 years by all statistical measures besides DRB%. He's hit Scola or Amar'e levels.

[exculpatory]

http://dlvr.it/42CTqG

FWIW, Sporting News & ESPN BOTH rank Paul as I did earlier in this thread - STILL the fourth best SF in the NBA EVEN at age 36.

[NyCeEvO]

http://dlvr.it/42CTqG

FWIW, Sporting News & ESPN BOTH rank Paul as I did earlier in this thread - STILL the fourth best SF in the NBA EVEN at age 36.

You bump the 'Official Pierce and KG thread' and post that. I'm sure the fans from across the river will laugh at such a ranking.

[exculpatory]

http://dlvr.it/42CTqG

FWIW, Sporting News & ESPN BOTH rank Paul as I did earlier in this thread - STILL the fourth best SF in the NBA EVEN at age 36.

You bump the 'Official Pierce and KG thread' and post that. I'm sure the fans from across the river will laugh at such a ranking.

SN, ESPN & I are spot on.