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jivelikenice wrote:Chase Budginer has a left knee injury. Minnesota might be in the market again for a SF (Ariza). Problem is they don't have any size outside of Derrick Williams (if you consider him a big)....
Ruzious wrote:Mainly because I've given up on this season. If you asked me before hearing about the Okafor injury, I wouldn't do it. I also really like Jones - while realizing his jump shot and shot selection are problematic - ala Josh Smith.
queridiculo wrote:Nene for Asik? Make it happen. It solves our longterm front court issue, and it gives Houston an extra year they don't have to worry about front court depth for, given how unlikely it may be for Asik to resign with Houston.
stevemcqueen1 wrote:Asik is a role player. Players of his caliber aren't really long term solutions to problems. That'd be like saying Martell solves our long term issues at SF. He'd be a competent body to trot out there at C, but little more.
Trading Nene for him is a downgrade. He would be Houston's starting PF.
I honestly don't think Asik is going to be that expensive to trade for. Houston's leverage is not great. He's not a good option to play next to Dwight because of the spacing issues. And he's not going to be happy there because he doesn't want to go back to playing backup minutes. If Houston hangs onto him for a while, they'll just lower his value even more.
I'd be open to trading for him, but it certainly shouldn't cost Nene. ....
deneem4 wrote:Il rather trade nene were almost finished rebuilding and the next piece we need is a star big man...
IF nene was healthy and productive we should definitely keep him, but we all know he is far from it...he maybe a bit better than asik, but asik is reliable like okafor and extremely consistent in what he does...
getting an asik will make it easier to lure a kevin love or Aldridge because they know they have some one downlow who will do the dirty work with no problem...
Okafor expires at the end of the yr so that gives us a good replacement while we draft/trade/develop or sign a competent power forward.
We can essentially head into nxt yr with wall being our biggest contract and an healthy/productive/expiring asik...followed by martell contract....all tht gives us huge leverage in the free agent and trade market, and leaves room for potentially 2 big player signings
gesa2 wrote:Asik's total winshares last season -- 5.5. WS/48 was 1.08
Nene's total winshares last 2 years -- 4.0, 2.7. WS/48 were 1.16, 1.17
Nene's peak was significantly better than anything Asik's done, but factoring in his salary, age and recent injuries, we'd be fortunate to get Asik straight up for him. There's a decent chance Nene will be better this year, if he manages to stay on the court better than the last 2 years. But even if he does, he's likely to not be worth his contract 2 years from now.
stevemcqueen1 wrote:Ruzious wrote:Mainly because I've given up on this season. If you asked me before hearing about the Okafor injury, I wouldn't do it. I also really like Jones - while realizing his jump shot and shot selection are problematic - ala Josh Smith.
Well that's a little defeatist. I think you're joking but I'm not sure. Okafor isn't going to make or break our season. It's a blow but it should be offset by improvement from young players, particularly Wall. There is still a long season ahead of us, and we've got a good shot at making big strides this year.
I can see a little bit in the Josh Smith comparison for T Jones. He's played so little though, doesn't seem to have the pedigree Smith had. I feel like he's one of those guys that has some talent but isn't going to get the patience and opportunity to make it off the fringes of the NBA.
My hesitation with Asik for this team is the difference in offensive ability with Nene. Asik is a terrific and physical rebounder. But that's really the only thing he has over Nene. They're comparable defenders, and Nene is a much better athlete and offensive player in all respects. If you deal Nene for Asik, you lose too much offense. We're already so thin in viable playmakers as is. Lose Nene and now Wall is really our only creative offensive player. Plus Asik only has range within three feet of the basket so he's not useful as anything but a 5th option.
He also doesn't make us bigger, if the goal is to find a big center. You'd just be replacing Nene's big body with Asik's, you'd still be small at PF, and you'd be losing lineup flexibility and range in the process because Asik is a weak option at PF. I'd just as soon keep Nene and start him at C.
Before the knee tendonitis and shoulder issue really slowed Nene down last season, he was very impactful. You can't just give up on that IMO. Not without getting something back that's comparable in impact.
People talk about Nene's contract being too big, but is that the case for us? We've gotten Wall's deal done. Deals for Beal and Porter are a long way away. And if we do decide to keep Booker, Vesely, or Seraphin, they're not going to be expensive at this rate. There don't appear to be any realistic big name options in FA next year.
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
I am relieved. I thought I was alone in wondering why there has been MUCH gloom since Okafor went down. Steve, I also think his absence can be offset by Wall's presence and improvement. And Beal. There are guys like Harrington and Ariza in contract years who need good years. Booker and Singleton and Seraphin are playing for there basketball future. Vesely got to be a bit of a rock star in FIBA play, and he got good reviews this summer. Maynor is a playmaker off the bench. Al Harrington is the S4 they lacked last year. Last, this by FAR is the best roster top - to - bottom Coach Wittman has ever had as an NBA head coach. I expect a good season.
I also believe Okafor will be fine before season's end.
As for any Asik trade IMO keep Nene and deal Okafor. Defense and rebounding are what would be acquired long term with Asik. That is what Okafor gives. Best case is a midseason deal Houston might do for cap relief. I like Emeka but getting younger and healthier with size in the frontcourt is the goal. Nene's highly skilled on offense. He prefers PF to preserve his body. Keep him and trade Okafor and or Seraphin to get Asik.
payitforward wrote:gesa2 wrote:Asik's total winshares last season -- 5.5. WS/48 was 1.08
Nene's total winshares last 2 years -- 4.0, 2.7. WS/48 were 1.16, 1.17
Nene's peak was significantly better than anything Asik's done, but factoring in his salary, age and recent injuries, we'd be fortunate to get Asik straight up for him. There's a decent chance Nene will be better this year, if he manages to stay on the court better than the last 2 years. But even if he does, he's likely to not be worth his contract 2 years from now.
Win shares is not a telling stat -- it's "dirty." For example, Asik had a *much* more productive season last year than Nene. Look at their WS40s -- or just at their rebounding rate and TS%.
I'll be very interested to watch how Morey handles this valuable asset that, all the same, he needs to move. Morey is always an interesting GM to observe. (unlike the train wreck we've got running things here)
stevemcqueen1 wrote:queridiculo wrote:Nene for Asik? Make it happen. It solves our longterm front court issue, and it gives Houston an extra year they don't have to worry about front court depth for, given how unlikely it may be for Asik to resign with Houston.
Asik is a role player. Players of his caliber aren't really long term solutions to problems. That'd be like saying Martell solves our long term issues at SF. He'd be a competent body to trot out there at C, but little more.
Trading Nene for him is a downgrade. He would be Houston's starting PF.
I honestly don't think Asik is going to be that expensive to trade for. Houston's leverage is not great. He's not a good option to play next to Dwight because of the spacing issues. And he's not going to be happy there because he doesn't want to go back to playing backup minutes. If Houston hangs onto him for a while, they'll just lower his value even more.
I'd be open to trading for him, but it certainly shouldn't cost Nene.
I'd go Ariza for him straight up. They could play Parsons at the 4 and Ariza at the 3 because Dwight lets them go small. They can find their backup C elsewhere.
Dat2U wrote:payitforward wrote:gesa2 wrote:Asik's total winshares last season -- 5.5. WS/48 was 1.08
Nene's total winshares last 2 years -- 4.0, 2.7. WS/48 were 1.16, 1.17
Nene's peak was significantly better than anything Asik's done, but factoring in his salary, age and recent injuries, we'd be fortunate to get Asik straight up for him. There's a decent chance Nene will be better this year, if he manages to stay on the court better than the last 2 years. But even if he does, he's likely to not be worth his contract 2 years from now.
Win shares is not a telling stat -- it's "dirty." For example, Asik had a *much* more productive season last year than Nene. Look at their WS40s -- or just at their rebounding rate and TS%.
I'll be very interested to watch how Morey handles this valuable asset that, all the same, he needs to move. Morey is always an interesting GM to observe. (unlike the train wreck we've got running things here)
No stat is perfect and WS is no more "dirty" than any other stat we can come up with. Fact is, reliance on any one singular stat as a determining factor for the quality of a player is probably a mistake.
payitforward wrote:Keep in mind that we owe Nene $13m a year for the next 3 years. And he can give you 25 minutes a game. When he's healthy. And he's aging. Trading him for a shorter term lower price player is a plus contract-wise.
But, of course, not if the guy's a low quality player. But you are wrong about Asik I believe. A role player? He basically led the league in rebounding rate last year. And he shoots 54-55%. Compare the numbers he puts up to those Larry Sanders puts up. Asik is a very very good player.
Dat2U wrote:Nene isn't a long term solution either. Betting on Nene's return to 100% health and lasting an entire season is a gamble I'm not really wanting to take. But I said the exact same thing last year. IMO, a 24 minute backup that plays 60 games a year isn't worth $13 million no matter what the production is. That's kinda of what I expect from Nene at this stage of his career and we really need more than guy who's best served as a part time player.
I think Sanders will eventually become a better defender than Asik, but Asik's physical strength gives him the advantage right now, imo. Sanders relies on his great shot-blocking ability for his D, while Asik is the better positional player. If Asik just played for blocks, he could get almost as many as Sanders.stevemcqueen1 wrote:Saving money just to save money isn't really progress though. The end goal is to get the best quality of player available with the dollars you spend on contracts.But, of course, not if the guy's a low quality player. But you are wrong about Asik I believe. A role player? He basically led the league in rebounding rate last year. And he shoots 54-55%. Compare the numbers he puts up to those Larry Sanders puts up. Asik is a very very good player.
Asik isn't a low quality player. He's extremely good at a very few things--rebounding and catching the ball at the rim for dunks and lay ups. He's also a pretty good defender with a big body that can body up big players and hard foul and offer a low block presence with physicality. His shooting % would be impressive if he had any range beyond three feet, but he doesn't. Nor does he have the ability to get himself those looks at the rim.
There is literally nothing else to his game than that. That's a role player. He's certainly very good at his role. But even if he were the best in the league at his role, it's still not a relatively high value role. You can get six hard fouls goon, rebounding, and a big body in the paint from a bargain barrel option like Reggie Evans and still get most of what Asik gives you. Evans makes just over 1.7 million dollars a year and he led the league in rebounding %.
Larry Sanders is a bit of a one trick pony and a role player too. He's a better and more valuable one than Asik. Sanders is a better defender than Asik, which is more valuable than the difference in their rebounding ability.
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract
Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.