Political Roundtable - Part VI

[dckingsfan]

For our buddy who cries about corporate taxes being to high.

He should (as should every American) cry out about the broken tax code. But therein lies the problem... both the corporate and personal tax codes have so many deductions that it is very difficult to change - everybody has some skin in the game. Your personal mortgage, that tax break that a large corporation negotiated, unions and there healthcare deduction, states and being able to deduct state income taxes. Both parties are deeply tangled in the mess... and both parties have pulled more than a majority of Americans into the mess.

[W. Unseld]

That's the thing, hands. Why can't the pres just dissolve Congress, call for reelections, and in the meantime pass an emergency budget? Where is our "break glass in case of emergency"?

Yikes, recall that I think this whole fight was a dumb idea and 90% the R's fault (the tactic is all the R's fault but both parties have to take some responsibility for the fact that we keep prematurely hitting the debt ceiling) I don't think you want anything like that unless you would be comfortable with the politician you hate the most using it in the future.

Spence, last time I checked Boehner said he would negotiate w/o conditions and Obama was stating he would not negotiate--again, dumb, reckless tactic, R's fault but I believe that was the status quo last time I checked.

*Edit--Whitehouse now saying they may be open to a short term solution.

[Nivek]

That's the thing, hands. Why can't the pres just dissolve Congress, call for reelections, and in the meantime pass an emergency budget? Where is our "break glass in case of emergency"?

Yikes, recall that I think this whole fight was a dumb idea and 90% the R's fault (the tactic is all the R's fault but both parties have to take some responsibility for the fact that we keep prematurely hitting the debt ceiling) I don't think you want anything like that unless you would be comfortable with the politician you hate the most using it in the future.

Spence, last time I checked Boehner said he would negotiate w/o conditions and Obama was stating he would not negotiate--again, dumb, reckless tactic, R's fault but I believe that was the status quo last time I checked.

*Edit--Whitehouse now saying they may be open to a short term solution.

What is there to negotiate? Spending levels were established when congress passed the bills and the president signed them. They were "reset" with the sequester -- something that was negotiated and agreed to by both parties.

At this point, the GOP is basically saying, "Screw all those previous negotiations. Now give us what we want or we'll tank the economy."

No president within shouting distance of sanity would enter "negotiations" under these circumstances. It would set an awful precedent. We'd see this kind of manure over and over again. Plus, the policies and spending were set when previous legislation was debated, negotiated and passed. Now we should just undo all that because a faction of the GOP wants it changed?

By the way: Boehner has said that a "clean" bill could not be passed by the House. What he means, of course, is that a clean bill cannot be passed with Republican votes only. He could easily a clean a bill using votes from Democrats and moderate Republicans. It's unlikely he could keep his position as speaker without the support of the Tea Partiers, but passing a clean bill wouldn't be difficult.

Really, if the Tea Partiers and the GOP wants to have its way, it should just win more elections.

[barelyawake]

Not to jump ahead in the series, but the 2016 season of Completely Broken is going to get interesting when Elizabeth Warren pushes Clinton to the left by being the Ron Paul of the left. Her first debate speech will go something like this, "You have been told a lie. This country has been bought an paid for by corporations who could care less about you and have convinced you that their fight is yours. They have bought entire news networks to get you to give up drinking water standards, and pollution standards, and minimum wage laws, and union safety regulations, and health care protections, and food safety standards, etc simply so they can make an extra buck that they can send out of the country. Corporations aren't people. And they aren't Americans. They are countries unto themselves, and they don't care if they destroy your neighborhood or family if there is a buck in it."

[Ruzious]

More about the repatriation of overseas corporate profits.

For those of you confused, I'm not talking about corporate tax in general.

I'm speaking to corporate profits made outside the US. Nearly 2 trillion sit outside, legally, in foreign banks collecting interest...with zero US tax owed.

I know many mid-size businesses who are happy to leave it off shore vs face a 35% tax. Some larger corporations with offshore presences likely prefer to leave it overseas, but it's not a majority. Apple is an interesting scenario, they'd likely pay a stock dividend and fund more local assembly.

And for those who scream most companies pay nowhere near 35% tax...good luck finding a loophole around repatriation. It's a pretty cut and dry separation from domestic reporting. Not the same issue.

Sounds like the answer is to tax their investment income no matter where they keep their money.

Many arguments against this, double taxation etc....at that point companies would just leave for tax haven countries en masse. Less international investment/exposure to American companies, less jobs domestically...

Also can't tax unrealized investment which is what they do with overseas profit.

Poor idea....but one with good intentions. I'd prefer a dividend I could reinvest in jobs or stock vs the government coming up with another entitlement program which is robbed blind.....

Of course you would. And of course all entitlements are for people who haven't earned them and don't need them. I'll leave this thread before I start showing how disgusted I am. I can post maybe 2 or 3 times a year here - maybe - without blowing up and calling people what they are.

[Dat2U]

More about the repatriation of overseas corporate profits.

For those of you confused, I'm not talking about corporate tax in general.

I'm speaking to corporate profits made outside the US. Nearly 2 trillion sit outside, legally, in foreign banks collecting interest...with zero US tax owed.

I know many mid-size businesses who are happy to leave it off shore vs face a 35% tax. Some larger corporations with offshore presences likely prefer to leave it overseas, but it's not a majority. Apple is an interesting scenario, they'd likely pay a stock dividend and fund more local assembly.

And for those who scream most companies pay nowhere near 35% tax...good luck finding a loophole around repatriation. It's a pretty cut and dry separation from domestic reporting. Not the same issue.

Sounds like the answer is to tax their investment income no matter where they keep their money.

Many arguments against this, double taxation etc....at that point companies would just leave for tax haven countries en masse. Less international investment/exposure to American companies, less jobs domestically...

Also can't tax unrealized investment which is what they do with overseas profit.

Poor idea....but one with good intentions. I'd prefer a dividend I could reinvest in jobs or stock vs the government coming up with another entitlement program which is robbed blind.....

What most self-serving elites like yourself fail to understand, er excuse me, fail to admit.... is that any program or provision that guarantees access to something, whether it's a social program or dividends to encourage reinvestment is still an entitlement. But of course, as long as it benefits your pockets directly it's a good idea to you.

[Induveca]

A dividend is a good thing. It can be reinvested back into the market in the country where the funds currently can't return.

The alternative is nothing returns. Americans are so preoccupied with spending money which doesn't exist, they ignore trillions of easily recouped dollars for the economy sitting right in front of them.....

[Induveca]

Sounds like the answer is to tax their investment income no matter where they keep their money.

Many arguments against this, double taxation etc....at that point companies would just leave for tax haven countries en masse. Less international investment/exposure to American companies, less jobs domestically...

Also can't tax unrealized investment which is what they do with overseas profit.

Poor idea....but one with good intentions. I'd prefer a dividend I could reinvest in jobs or stock vs the government coming up with another entitlement program which is robbed blind.....

What most self-serving elites like yourself fail to understand, er excuse me, fail to admit.... is that any program or provision that guarantees access to something, whether it's a social program or dividends to encourage reinvestment is still an entitlement. But of course, as long as it benefits your pockets directly it's a good idea to you.

Again I am speaking directly to repatriation of corporate funds which would otherwise never return.

Corporations won't repatriate funds if it goes into government programs at a 35% clip.

I'm far from elitist, I'm a 3rd world product through and through. I simply don't believe in excessive credit or excessive "freebies" for the masses. It wrecks economies, creates unneeded dependencies and slowly creates a sense of entitlement for those who should have none.

Lastly, and most importantly "stability" as many in the EU refer to it means a job nearly impossible to be fired from, excessive days off, free healthcare, and a middling economic existence.

Much of the EU are now offering tax free status for 2-4 years and residency for successful foreign tech entrepreneurs if they hire five locals. Young EU kids growing up on these quasi-social programs aren't risk takers as a whole.

I'd argue America should do the exact OPPOSITE of the EU when it comes to blanket social policies....

[pancakes3]

1 - There will always be tax loopholes for many, many reasons regardless of the simplicity/complexity of the tax code. The only people that end up paying the suckers' rate are people that can't/won't/don't hire a clever enough book-keeper.

2 - China views America as a welfare state. Just thought people who aren't aware of that become aware of that.

3 - China buying up American debt was never really that rampant. It was always the fed buying back debt first, and other investors second.

4 - Here's a devil's advocate's argument regarding income disparity. Who's the joke really on? The minimum wage worker or the billionaire when both get the same: Internet, smart phone, television channels, car (practically speaking), ipad, groceries, etc?

What difference does it make that the income gap is increasing when the standard of living is getting better faster for the poor?

[W. Unseld]

Nivek, I don't think we are on the same page, not in terms of agreement or disagreement but in terms of talking about the same aspect of the same point. I was responding to a post that said the R's won't negotiate, not whether or not there should be a negotiation or the merits of the R's stance.

Barely, I am curious about Elizabeth Warren. Some of her quotes have left me shaking my head but she was great against the credit card companies explaining how what they do isn't actually a contract by any legal definition.

[barelyawake]

What we need is world unions and a populace that demands that our national government stands up to corporations.

A) NAFTA should have never been signed. We should have listened to unions back then.
B) We need to back unions not dismantle them or somehow think they are privileged (when, in fact, they raise the standard of living for all).
C) The money of which Indy speaks should never have been allowed to be moved in the first place. Yes, now we should repatriptate it, and also ensure it doesn't leave again. Same with our oil. Oil or natural gas drilled on US soil ought to be US energy. Same with US water. We have this huge market, all the infrastructure and resources. If you want to play here, you help America and it's workers (you don't exploit everything you can and ship the money out). What is McDonalds going to leave if we say you have to pay a living wage? Is Walmart?
D) We need national regulations. Stop pitting states against one another in a battle downward in terms of standard of living as governors suck-up to corporations to attract jobs.


The elites are trying to turn this country into India. And that's exactly what they will do if we don't start a real occupy movement with vision, leaders and demands.

[barelyawake]

What minimum wage worker do you know who has an iPad? Are you kidding me? You need a phone to be employed. Most people I know with kids who are making less than $50,000 a year are struggling in our area (much less minimum wage). I'm talking about people who don't go out to dinner, sometimes have to skip meals (to pay for their car which they use for work), have **** TVs, have to pay ridiculous gas bills to go to work, etc etc... And when healthcare things come up, their lights get turned off. And I get a phone call to loan them the money to keep their lights on. Minimum wage with iPads. If they live in their parents' basements and have no kids... Then maybe.

[Nivek]

I guess if you think it's so great being poor, give away all your assets and possessions and take a minimum wage job. Then you can have all the wonderful benefits of being poor in America.

[W. Unseld]

barely, you've touched upon one of my key fears in recent years (though in my daymare I'm a 30 cent an hour factory worker in China making X-box's and ipads). I don't think it's as simple as one group of conspiratorial people being responsible but I do agree it seems to be sliding that way and that it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Induveca]

A lot of you guys don't understand there is no option of "never letting the money leave". That's not how international banking works.

I buy three iPhones in Copenhagen in Kronen via a Visa/cash, those funds are deposited in a local Apple account at a local bank. Even if it's Citibank it's still a local branch, although it has zero real connection to Citibank US other than name.

US "swipe" visas are antiquated in the EU, and are processed via local merchant accounts. For this reason, and national laws, all credit card transactions are processed via local banks. Chip and pin is mostly world standard other than the USA.

"Never letting the money leave", is simply an impossibility, for brick and mortar retail especially. Local governments want their cut, audit trail, and to even setup a business overseas, regardless of brand, for all intensive purposes you're a corporation of the country in which you are doing business.

Fact is, must EU countries are so friendly tax wise to foreign business....bringing the money back to the US just doesn't make sense if you intend to continue doing business outside the US.

Now if the US government were intelligent they'd offer a 5 percent rate, with stipulations of hiring a certain number of college graduates and/or funding universities to teach skills in which the US is lacking.

No perfect solution, but by no stretch of the imagination is leaving offshore profits an "evil" thing. It's responsible accounting.

[barelyawake]

Indy, I'm not talking about business done overseas. I'm talking about business done here and the money is stored overseas to avoid taxes. Never in the history of the world would that have been called "responsible banking." It would have been called treason. It's a gimmick. An extremely unpatriotic gimmick. But, that's the point. Many of our elite class don't view themselves as members of this country. They are citizens of the world who care as much about exploiting our manpower and resources or polluting America, as American arms dealers or diamond merchants care about what happens in Africa.

[Induveca]

Indy, I'm not talking about business done overseas. I'm talking about business done here and the money is stored overseas to avoid taxes. Never in the history of the world would that have been called "responsible banking." It would have been called treason. It's a gimmick. An extremely unpatriotic gimmick. But, that's the point. Many of our elite class don't view themselves as members of this country. They are citizens of the world who care as much about exploiting our manpower and resources or polluting America, as American arms dealers or diamond merchants care about what happens in Africa.

I agree with you here completely. My only issue my posts the past few pages revolved around the repatriation of the 2 trillion in profits held overseas in subsidiaries of US corporations.

We're speaking of completely different circumstances. That's not treason, it's accounting and international corporate law.

I will say to your issue, that overseas investment is encouraged and legal. If I make 5 million this year, then invest that same 5 million within the fiscal year in a Slovakian construction housing development no tax is owed until my investment is realized (and profitable).

Globalization is a tricky thing. US embraced it, until the world caught up and began to compete.....FACTA etc is not the answer. US clout is dropping unbelievably fast. I thought my kids would see this, not me....

[barelyawake]

Ok I've got the flu, so maybe I misunderstood your point. I'd like to argue this point with you, but I have a full day planned of coughing and picking out headstones.

[hands11]

That's the thing, hands. Why can't the pres just dissolve Congress, call for reelections, and in the meantime pass an emergency budget? Where is our "break glass in case of emergency"?

Yikes, recall that I think this whole fight was a dumb idea and 90% the R's fault (the tactic is all the R's fault but both parties have to take some responsibility for the fact that we keep prematurely hitting the debt ceiling) I don't think you want anything like that unless you would be comfortable with the politician you hate the most using it in the future.

Spence, last time I checked Boehner said he would negotiate w/o conditions and Obama was stating he would not negotiate--again, dumb, reckless tactic, R's fault but I believe that was the status quo last time I checked.

*Edit--Whitehouse now saying they may be open to a short term solution.

I so want to put my head through a wall when I hear people call into CSPAN parroting the TP Fox argument still. SH. Rush. The whole lot of them should be tried for Treason. Sorry, but if you voted for the Bush, you helped create this monster and this mess. Can't change what you did if you didn't listen back then, but for GS, please back your head out of you rss now.

One thing Boehner has said that is true. This isn't a game. It you think it is, you don't understand the level of crazy the people you help elect are.

Lest review.

Bush won in a Supreme Court contested election. We don't even have to get into the Katherine Harris stuff or his brothers part in that. Or the what the Supreme Court did. It all stunk. Evil. Upon arrival, he had a huge annual surplus. What did he do? Ignored warring about Bin Ladin. Cut taxes on the grounds of giving the annual surplus back. Started a preemptive war they lied to get into. Went against the UN and the world to do it. Cut taxes again even when in a war. Water boarded which is about as anti American as you can get. Created an axis of evil. Then he won again by scaring America over getting attacked again. Create the "Home Land " Nazi talk. And what did he say when he won a 2nd time ? He said he would use that political capitol, then smirked in is Bush smirk. He tried to privatize Social Security, something that hasn't added to the debt at all. And the list goes on and on. He sucked. He, the Rs and the people that voted him in screwed the country. They not only piled on the debt, they ruined our moral highground.

Next Election Obama vs McCain - They lost. And in doing so, they empowered the TPs who actually started as an anti Bush, establishment R movement. McCain was a sell out and they gave us Sarah Palin. They tuned the TPs on Obama because of what ? Universal Healthcare ? How evil of him. Well, Obama helped stabilize the economy. Stopped the massive bleeding. So McConnel and others set a plan in place. Don't work with Obama on anything. It was their plan. Now they want us to believe its Obama not working with them ? Anyway, Obama gets Bin Ladin, something Bush and Channey left office not worried about. Got out of Iraq, something the Rs didn't want. More evil anti American move by Obama.

And along the way, what did the Rs do. They created crisis after crisis. They set us up for a debt ceiling default. And in doing so, we were talking a grand bargain to avoid the debt ceiling. That was the first time they took America hostage and with things as bad as they were, Obama gave ground. The one time Boehner did something half way right, he brought a vote to the floor without his TPs base behind him.

They put in place a poison pill called sequester. They assigned a commission to work out a better plan. That failed. So we got sequester. Something everyone agreed was terrible. That's why it was there. No one believed it would ever happen. But the TPs are nuts and Boehner has not balls to control them. And the est R went along for the ride.

So we have a national election. Obama runs on the ACA. He wins. America as a nation had spoken. And you know who can't believe it. The Rs. They didn't believe the poles ( facts ). So they are supposed to go lick their wounder and future out a path forward for their party. Instead, the Koch Brother plan exactly what we are now going through. Talking points and all. And yet I hear people calling in saying it Obama that won't negotiate ? No, this is the plan. They know they aren't going to win any national election any time soon so they want to take power away from the exec branch. The same playbook they did when Nixon was elected president and they didn't think they would ever control the house. Then they wanted the exec branch to have more power and they helped and supported the expansion of that.

There is nothing to negotiate for where we are right now.

ACA was negotiated. The whole basis of it is a compromise modeled after their counter idea to Clinton plan.
ACA passed the house and senate. 60 votes. A super majority in the senate.
It held up to the Supreme Court challenge they mounted. Something they also didn't believe would happen.
Obama won another national election running on his agenda, including the ACA.

All the Rs had to do was go to conference and ( TALK ) starting back in March to finish a annual budget.
They never appointed people to do that. This was the PLAN.
They never should have attached the ACA to the CR that is only now needed because the kicked the can down the road until we ran out of time. Then when we did, the stalled some more with a poison pill. Why, because they RAN to get elected to congress by saying the would shut down the government.

What is there to talk about ? They could have talked before ? What are the Rs putting on the table? NOTHING. Not shutting down the gov or blowing up the economy is not giving Obama something. That is their most basic job for us and the world. Not a favor. Its not a chip. They have talked. But they never offer anything sane.

The reason Obama is standing strong is because he has to. You can't give in the hostage takers. What we need to do it arrest them.

All the Rs are doing is detracting and playing games. More talking points BS. Hell, McConnel and Rand were caught on camera reviewing their BS talking points plan. Add that to the list of evidence of who is doing this. Boehner never tells the truth. He wants to talk ? Obama has talked to him until he was blue in the face. The man can't deliver the votes because he has nothing to offer. Hell in the debates they said to everyone on stage... would you give 10 dollars in tax cuts for 1 dollar of revenue and they all said NO. These people are the all my way or the highway one. Obama offered chained CPI. Something his base hates. What did they offer ?

THEY SET THIS TONE OF NOT NEGOTIATING, NOT OBAMA OR THE DEMS. And now all they can do is say the opposite ? That is childish level lying. Everyone should be able to tell a childs level of lying. And anyone that is still on their side is either an idiot or political terrorist. Sorry. Its true.

There is not they both sides do it to this story. There are facts and sanity and there are is nut job crazy. Those still with their heads in the sands are the willingly ignorant. Sorry, I can't excuse them anymore.

[hands11]

Not to jump ahead in the series, but the 2016 season of Completely Broken is going to get interesting when Elizabeth Warren pushes Clinton to the left by being the Ron Paul of the left. Her first debate speech will go something like this, "You have been told a lie. This country has been bought an paid for by corporations who could care less about you and have convinced you that their fight is yours. They have bought entire news networks to get you to give up drinking water standards, and pollution standards, and minimum wage laws, and union safety regulations, and health care protections, and food safety standards, etc simply so they can make an extra buck that they can send out of the country. Corporations aren't people. And they aren't Americans. They are countries unto themselves, and they don't care if they destroy your neighborhood or family if there is a buck in it."

Elizabeth is not afraid to tell the truth. And when he does on a stage that big, its going to slap the average American in the face.

This are set up for a real, honest, populous movement. One based in reality and honesty. Not some Rand Paul BS or Cruz puppet show.