Preseason Game Thread Wiz vs Brooklyn Tue, Oct 8 7:00 PM

[GhostsOfGil]

Anderson and Ilyasova, over and over and over. Neither is a great player. Neither is a difference-maker. Neither is going to make this a contending team.

To suggest that Anderson or Ilyasova would have perpetuated the rebuild is -- hmm, what's the word -- dimwitted.

It wasn't just Anderson of Ersan. It could have been Harden. We could be going into this season with:

Wall
Harden
Webster
Anderson
Nene

+ mid round pick.

[tontoz]

Houston got Harden and Howard. They didn't get those two by wasting their capspace on average vets.

[dobrojim]

I am not disagreeing with him. he just cracks me up sometimes. I can go on a rant with the best of them but usually it takes me awhile to get warmed up. he comes right out swinging.

I certainly remember some headscratching quotes from badinage.

I liked to reserve my rants for the politics thread!

While I'm usually an optimist, there are others like myself, that tend mostly to
stay on a fairly even keel as far as zards' news, good and bad go.

[badinage]

Houston got Harden and Howard. They didn't get those two by wasting their capspace on average vets.

Yeah, that's not the argument.

If it's frustration that this is not a good team, I understand that.

Or is that what all the griping is about, always? Because the target is always moving on here.

Dat thinks I said 42 million for Okafor and Ariza = an ideal rebuild. I never said that. I don't think it.

Nor do I think that their acquisition somehow cemented our identity as that of "striving for mediocrity." Where is the evidence for that? Saying so makes it so? (Take a look at Dumars when he built the championship Pistons. And don't reflexively trot out the observation that that team is an aberration. The point is there are many different paths.)

"Okariza" is not what is holding this team back. Bad drafting is holding this team back. Lack of imagination is holding this team back. A willingness to spend freely is holding this team back.

[tontoz]

Houston got Harden and Howard. They didn't get those two by wasting their capspace on average vets.

Yeah, that's not the argument.

If it's frustration that this is not a good team, I understand that.

Or is that what all the griping is about, always? Because the target is always moving on here.

Dat thinks I said 42 million for Okafor and Ariza = an ideal rebuild. I never said that. I don't think it.

Nor do I think that their acquisition somehow cemented our identity as that of "striving for mediocrity." Where is the evidence for that? Saying so makes it so? (Take a look at Dumars when he built the championship Pistons. And don't reflexively trot out the observation that that team is an aberration. The point is there are many different paths.)

"Okariza" is not what is holding this team back. Bad drafting is holding this team back. Lack of imagination is holding this team back. A willingness to spend freely is holding this team back.

???

How could they spend more freely? Okariza prevented this team from spending more than the MLE on any free agent the last two seasons. And they won't have the cap room this summer that they would have had if they didn't make the trade.

[payitforward]

I see payitforward has a new friend.


You really need to stop being such a puss. Stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel, chump.

PIF is right though. It was really a dimwitted response, as if the current scenario were seeing is the only plausible scenario that could have been taken. Some people can only analyze what's in front of them, nothing wrong with that, but being an ass while criticizing others for being able to see things a different way deserves a harsh critique.

What lit my match were the attempts at irony.

Still, I was over the top -- badinage, I apologize, I took you down too hard, and that was "dimwitted" of me. Hope you'll let me off the hook and not take it personally. We're all a bunch of frustrated fans here!

[payitforward]

Anderson and Ilyasova, over and over and over. Neither is a great player. Neither is a difference-maker. Neither is going to make this a contending team.

To suggest that Anderson or Ilyasova would have perpetuated the rebuild is -- hmm, what's the word -- dimwitted.

Look, if your team has player A, and player B is better at that position, then player B would be "a difference-maker" on your team.

And the "keep building through youth" trope -- we've had four high lotto picks, nabbing a franchise PG (we think); a wing who may blossom in two years to become a star; and a SF who -- well, who knows, but he has pedigree, and an all-around game, and savvy. Jan is a disappointment.

But that's four cracks at the high-lottery. Four years should be enough, with some smart pick-ups, to create a core.

Given that you use the word "trope" I know you are educated in some formal sense. Hence I know you can follow an argument that's after all not all that complicated, even if it was just as it were typed out w/o much planning or construction. Hence, please recall that when I said "keep building through youth..." I also said "then" and, as well, I said instead of trading for Okariza not instead of any and every other possible move!

"Then" was not after 4 lotto picks but after 2 lotto picks, one of whom was the estimable Jan Vesely. The good players we had added as of that date were John Wall and the already twice injured Trevor Booker.

Also, to presume that because you're adding veterans you're no longer adding young'uns is a fallacy. Webster, to choose just one example, is 26.

Well, it wouldn't be "a fallacy", but you probably mean that it would be incorrect, and you are right about that. Not that I made the claim you knocked down. I didn't.

Webster played at an above average level. He's a good backup 3, and he is a terrific guy. Nor did I criticize that signing, so... what's your point?

Oh, and, given that Webster is "just one example", why don't you give me another one.... Right, there isn't another one (please don't respond w/ Maynor or Temple a couple of low-cost fill-out-the-roster types).

...These things happen. ...a guy hurting his neck and being out indefinitely.

Absolutely! And if you rely on guys in the last 1/3 of their career who have a history of injuries, they happen all the more often. It'd be nice if we had a GM who understood that, and how to draft, and whom to trade for, and so forth.

But we don't.

[penbeast0]

Anderson and Ilyasova, over and over and over. Neither is a great player. Neither is a difference-maker. Neither is going to make this a contending team.

To suggest that Anderson or Ilyasova would have perpetuated the rebuild is -- hmm, what's the word -- dimwitted.

It wasn't just Anderson of Ersan. It could have been Harden. We could be going into this season with:

Wall
Harden
Webster
Anderson
Nene

+ mid round pick.

We could have been going into this season with

Wall
Beal
Harden
Anderson
McGee


as well if you went by consensus of those who wanted the team to follow the youth and talent path. Not sure that's an improvement though it's certainly younger and more talented (I don't think you get Webster if you are signing both Beal and Harden, he was looking for a place to get starter minutes) . . .

[GhostsOfGil]

I think if we were to get Harden, it would have cost us Beal last summer.

[hands11]

People who hated the trade did so not because Okafor was a bad player, but because he was an expensive one who would make the team just good enough to get stuck in the treadmill of mediocrity - all the while being too old to be a true core piece.

Younger, cheaper players were in fact available. Corollary fears about Okafor's injury history of back issues have in fact played out. The trade broke well for the Wizards only because of lucky ping pong balls. Everything else has turned out pretty much spot on how the naysayers worried it would.

no they havent

And that's all you can say... 3 words, because if you try to explain your answer, your probably going to look pretty silly doing it.

Really DAT. I make a short post for once and this ? Don't make me drum up a 1500 word detailed reply now.

The the naysayers are voluminous in their naysayerness. Wall was supposed to return and have his left leg fall off and require season ending surgery.

Maybe the season could go South. No denying that. No Okafor clearly hurts their front court experience. But hey, LA spent over 100 mil last year on a title run and look what happen to them. Injuries happen. Still not counting Okafor out until I know more.

The year before, Wall had a freak injury and Nene was to dumb to not rest up over the summer. If not for that, Wiz would have more likely then not been in the playoffs. I think stats and a lot of people here would agree with that. As for this off-season, I'm glad they resigned Webster and brought Temple back. We will see about the rest. Otto, Maynor and Nick 2.0 - Let just say that isn't as exciting as getting Beal the year before. But Otto should end up a good wing in time.

[hands11]

Pretty hilarious that Okafor, whom nearly everyone on here bashed a year ago as a middling vet pickup and evidence of unimaginative GMing that effectively ended the rebuilding, is now seen as so vital to our entire hope for the season.

Look, if he can't play, then he expires -- and wasn't that what most of you wanted? Beaucoup cap space, a chance at adding more young'uns, eschewing all veteran baggage, etc. So why the moping?

BS, pure and simple. The objection to the Okariza trade was not at all what you describe.

The opposition was to turning an opportunity -- i.e. buying out Lewis -- to maximize cap space *now* (i.e. then), so as to continue an attempt to build a title contender, into a bid for mediocrity *now* (i.e. then).

Okafor has always been a good player; he was and is on the way down (natural at his age), so that possible minutes and/or effectiveness go down and the possibility of injury increases. This is true in general the older a player gets -- not particular to Okafor. Hence he had a very good season for us last year, but he only played 2000 minutes. And this year he's out w/ an injury -- quite possibly for the whole season.

Moreover, what would have been "beaucoup cap space" had we bought out Lewis doesn't amount to the same thing any more, because of what's happened since. We already have $42m guaranteed to only 5 players next year (Nene, Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter).

Given that Nene is another of those part-time players (injuries, etc.) and noting that Webster has had an injury-riddled career, what exactly have we "rebuilt?"

And for the 1 Millionth time. Ted didnt want to buy out Lewis and pay Dray to leave. So your make believe option was not an option in Ted view. When its your millions, you can buy a team and through as many millions away as you would like.

Now you can debate should they have kept Dray and bought out Lewis. That would have fallen with in the kind of dead money Ted was willing to put out. If they keep Dray, what other moves could they have done or not. What would the cap have been. What player could the have realistically attracted with the Lewis money.

Or, he could have made the Trevor/Okafor/Lewis trade and keep Dray.

Talk of buying out Lewis and paying Dray is pointless. He wasn't doing it. I said so before it and after he didn't do it.

[hands11]

Rice could well end up in the rotation.

Hmmm.

PG Wall/Maynor
SG Beal (Temple/Rice), Webster
SF Ariza/Webster
PF Ves, AH, Booker
C Nene/Seraphin

It'll be interesting to see if Wittman goes with a 10-man rotation and plugs Rice into the backup SG spot. Or if he just goes with 9 players with Webster getting minutes at both wing spots. If Rice plays, it'll free up more minutes for Ariza to slide over to PF.

Man, I hate our PF rotation. It's so completely unpredictable. Wittman will have no idea what he's going to get from anyone on any given night.

Updated line up

Thats what I'm expecting still for the preseason. Temple and Glen will get their minutes to prove themselves. If not Webby will play more SG. Web could still even end up the starting SF. Could work out better like that. Booker healthy is going to help a lot with Okafor out. They need another tough play who can rebound up front. Book I have him 3rd. Otto ? Not thinking about it to much until the can practice.

Its by no means a bullet proof roster, but it could work out if it gels well and Nene stays on the court. The starters did well against a good BRK team.

[Illuminaire]

no they havent

And that's all you can say... 3 words, because if you try to explain your answer, your probably going to look pretty silly doing it.

Really DAT. I make a short post for once and this ? Don't make me drum up a 1500 word detailed reply now.

The the naysayers are voluminous in their naysayerness. Wall was supposed to return and have his left leg fall off and require season ending surgery.

Maybe the season could go South. No denying that. No Okafor clearly hurts their front court experience. But hey, LA spent over 100 mil last year on a title run and look what happen to them. Injuries happen. Still not counting Okafor out until I know more.

The year before, Wall had a freak injury and Nene was to dumb to not rest up over the summer. If not for that, Wiz would have more likely then not been in the playoffs. I think stats and a lot of people here would agree with that. As for this off-season, I'm glad they resigned Webster and brought Temple back. We will see about the rest. Otto, Maynor and Nick 2.0 - Let just say that isn't as exciting as getting Beal the year before. But Otto should end up a good wing in time.

You managed to not deal directly with a single point I made. I don't think you're purposefully making strawmen or anything, but you're just not talking about the same things I brought up - or, not coincidentally, the real issues that "naysayers" had.

I can outline them in bullet points if it's easier...

[tontoz]

"Wisdom" from badinage after the Gay trade...

Memphis is a mess. It didn't have to be. That was a good team, physical, tough in the playoffs. You don't tear that down; you add pieces, tweak, do what Detroit did in trying to acquire the one player that puts you over the hump.

This idea that just because you can't win a title means you should rip it apart is laughable. That's how people on boards like this think. The Platonic ideal of a team or bust. We can't put up with 43-39 unless we're building a dynasty. No no. The team must possess extraordinarily efficient players who are also shot creators, dynamically skilled and capable of drawing double-teams, but unwilling to ever attempt more than 11 shots a game.
They must play hounding defense and possess "lock-down" defenders at PF and SF. They must be supremely unselfish. They must also be entertaining to watch.

Sometimes you have to endure imperfection to get to where you want. Cf, Danny Ainge's Celtics prior to Garnett's arrival.

There are many routes to success. Should 26 teams begin radical disassembly because they're not gonna win it all?

It's also laughable that they're taking direction from John Hollinger. I would be willing to mortgage my house that he never wins a division, let alone an NBA title. Jon Leuer! Efficient! A 9th man, but efficient! And he has Ed Davis now, so a tremendous player in Zach Randolph is next to be shipped out.

If I'm the Spurs or Thunder, I'm laughing, laughing, laughing.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1192460&start=1035


Memphis went 27-10 after the trade so they won almost as many games after the trade as the Wizards did all season. I am laughing, laughing, laughing. If Memphis is a mess then what are the Wizards?