Kobe

[ak7]

3rd after LBJ & Durant.

Wait... you're saying...prime Kobe is worse than KD?

You young kids...

[tsherkin]

Kobe would be comfortably top 3 and arguably top 2. He'd be clearly behind Lebron, but a prime Kobe was a devastating offensive monster.

From 08-10, he posted 27.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg and 5.1 apg in 37.9 mpg and did it on 56.1% TS / 113 ORTG, dipping because his 2010 regular season wasn't super-hot (he went 115, 115, 109 ORTG, and 57.6, 56.1 and 54.5% TS).

That's late-20s and early-30s Kobe in the contemporary era.

05-07, he was at 31.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg and 5.3 apg on 56.7% TS (56.3, 55.9, 58.0) and 114 ORTG (111, 114, 115).

In other words, again, he was monster on the offensive side of the ball. There wouldn't be any doubt that he was one of the three best players in the league and there would be a really significant argument about him and KD, Durant's incredibly efficient RS notwithstanding. Kobe was, of course, a considerably better playmaker. It behooves people to remember that from 05-10, his TOV% was 10.9% against a usage rate of 33.4% and an AST% of 24.9%, which is absurd. Now, high-volume shooters who aren't total asshats often have high usage and low turnover rates; AI, despite his per-game averages (which were driven by minutes-played) was a 35.0% USG, 11.4% TOV player from 99-06, which is actually really good (especially with a 28.8% AST rate).

For reference here, Jordan's career numbers pre-Washington are are 33.5% USG, 24.9% AST and 9.3% TOV at a 120 ORTG. So he's obviously the gold standard, but there are some happy numbers to think about for AI (of whom I rarely have flattering things to say) and especially Bryant.

The point?

Compare and contrast to Durant.

2013: 29.8% USG, 21.7% AST and 13.7% TOV. A 122 ORTG because of 64.7% TS (!!), he was still straight nasty and that's what really drives this argument, but he wasn't a particularly good playmaker, he really didn't do well in the roles that Kobe and MJ filled. Different kind of player, a little more pre-08 Dirk than a guard, which makes sense for his position, really.

In any case, what it all means is that Kobe's ability to play a broader game while taking better care of the ball and generating shots for his teammates was still worth mentioning in a comparison between the two, even though Durant was a more efficient player. That's why I said calling Kobe top-3 is an easy one, but there would be a very interesting argument between Kobe and Durant, with compelling ideas on either side that would ultimately boil down more to personal preference in terms of style than any real tangible difference in overall value.

[Durins Baynes]

Behind Lebron and Durant certainly. I wouldn't rule other 1 or 2 other guys, though I guess even resurgent Duncan is hampered by minutes a lot (and still is a fair way off prime Duncan).

[Cyrusman122000]

Second best player, and best scorer in the league

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

I'm okay with him being 2nd but by no means his prime is behind Durant.

[Amares]

3rd

[BmanInBigD]

I don't see how anyone could say he'd be the best with LeBron in the league, that just defies any logic or sense. He'd be 2nd/3rd with Durant, those two are really close. Kobe's not a better scorer, hell, Durant had a 122 ORtg last year, Kobe's never been close to that. But he was a better defender in his prime, so they would be about even IMO.

Some people just can't understand/admit how good LeBron is, I guess. I can't fathom how he won't be a consensus top-5 by the time he's done unless he has some catastrophic injury or meltdown.

[B2Bhoops]

I don't see how anyone could say he'd be the best with LeBron in the league, that just defies any logic or sense.

I assure you that if Kobe was doing his Wilt Chamberlain impersonation last season people wouldn't have nearly the same unwavering confidence in LeBron as the best player in the world that they do now.

[JordansBulls]

I'm okay with him being 2nd but by no means his prime is behind Durant.

I agree. I think Kobe on the Thunder beat the Grizzlies last year if it is prime Kobe.

[boateng]

Durant is only statistically better than Kobe. The jury is still out if he is actually better than a prime Kobe who IMO edges Durant out a little as the second best I'm the league. Like I hate the guy and all but the dudes a proven legend still. Kd nothing to scoff at either, RS worse and again stats wise he peaked higher the. Kobe ever did last year, we just need to see more to put him ahead of the the second greats sg of all time

why do you hate him?
Hate is a strong word so i am curious.

[EArl]

Best player hands down. He and LBJ would be competing for the top spot.

[mojay641]

Put, say, 2003 Kobe on the Lakers of last year and he would have put up around 32+/7/6/2+/1/58% TS with 20+ 40+ point games, 5-10 50+ pt games, potentially multiple 60+ games, multiple triple-doubles with legitimate All-Defense play. Anybody who thinks he wouldn't get a ton of "best player in the game" talk is delusional...

[Rasho_libre]

Put, say, 2003 Kobe on the Lakers of last year and he would have put up around 32+/7/6/2+/1/58% TS with 20+ 40+ point games, 5-10 50+ pt games, potentially multiple 60+ games, multiple triple-doubles with legitimate All-Defense play. Anybody who thinks he wouldn't get a ton of "best player in the game" talk is delusional...

Still wouldn't be better than any verison of Lebron from 09 and on.

[ak7]

Put, say, 2003 Kobe on the Lakers of last year and he would have put up around 32+/7/6/2+/1/58% TS with 20+ 40+ point games, 5-10 50+ pt games, potentially multiple 60+ games, multiple triple-doubles with legitimate All-Defense play. Anybody who thinks he wouldn't get a ton of "best player in the game" talk is delusional...

Still wouldn't be better than any verison of Lebron from 09 and on.

According to whom? The armchair biased pro-LeBron/anti-Kobe cult member on the PC board?

[Durins Baynes]

Or Durant, who was a pretty obviously better peak player, on paper and otherwise.

[Rasho_libre]

^ says this guy... Let him statistically at least be better than Durant before you compare him to Lebron . But we've gone over this I'm not gonna do a Lebron vs Kobe thing here,

[RebelWithACause]

Depending on team success, he would in the discussion for the best player in the league.
It would be a style preference between him and LeBron (but only if he would contend).

[Durins Baynes]

Bizarre to compare him to Lebron. Lebron has shown he has enough impact to carry a team of bums to 60+ wins. Kobe has shown he carries comparably talented teams to mediocrity. The gap is a giant one, and Kobe isn't even close.

[EtchenBa]

The anti-Kobe cult?

Jesus **** Christ you can't be serious...

[EArl]

Bizarre to compare him to Lebron. Lebron has shown he has enough impact to carry a team of bums to 60+ wins. Kobe has shown he carries comparably talented teams to mediocrity. The gap is a giant one, and Kobe isn't even close.

If you are talking about when he was in Cleveland this is incorrect. Lebron did not have high profile guys in Cleveland, but players like Varejao, Mo Williams etc are not bad players.

Compare players like smush Parker and Kwame Brown than you can see whats good and what isnt.