Should Lin come off the bench?

[Luv those Knicks]

Plus he works hard, he's smart, he's a coach's player. I could see if he has injury issues he's out of the league, but not if he stays healthy. I'd take him on the Knicks in a heartbeat. I know why they let him go, and I know that Woodson saw him as a backup, but he's still a NBA level talent.

\
Woodson sees JR as starting material and Bargs as Melo's 2. He thinks points per game is a better than points per possession when it comes to defense. Woodson's public comments probably differ from his real thought process is what I am trying to say. Lin looks really really good in the preseason. Dont care if he starts or not if he gets 30+ minutes he will wreck havoc against backups or can take good shots against starters who are busy trying to stop Harden and Howard.

yeah, don't get me wrong. I like Lin a lot. "take him on the Knicks in a heartbeat" for example. His assist to turnover ratio still needs work, but it was better last year than when he was on the Knicks. I think he's better off the bench than starting but he's good enough to be a starter.

[Manitoba]

No. He's a starter with a big upside. I'm not saying this is going to happen, but he's capable of being a borderline all-star when he reaches his prime. He has the size, strength, and quickness of a point guard combined with a solid skillset. There's no reason why he can't play almost as good as he played during the Linsanity era.

Lin may be there (borderline all-star) already. He averaged 18 points and 7 assists per 36 minutes over the last two months of the season, when he was finally healthy. This is almost Chris Paul territory (18.3 points and 10.5 assists per36).

Harden had the ball most of the time, so Lin's assists took a serious hit compared to CP3. But even so, Lin ended up with more assists than Harden -- in spite of playing many fewer minutes than the Beard (2640 versus nearly 3000), and having the ball much less when he did play. As a playmaker, Lin is one of the best in the NBA.

Lin is already looking excellent this preseason. He could force his way into the all-star conversation -- unless the Houston coaches bench him for the crime of being good.

[Winseb]

Whether Lin starts or not shouldn't matter. If McHale can stagger Lin and Harden's minutes it'd accomplish the same thing-- which if I'm correct, is to always have either Lin or Harden on the floor at all times so the offense (mainly the bench) never goes without a playmaker.

This debate would actually make sense if the starter were to play minutes solely with starters and the sixth man were to play minutes solely with the second unit. But that isn't the case, so...

[orlandomanic]

Yes, Lin is a pretty horrible PG, but an above average ball dominate undersized shooting guard like Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, or Bobby Jackson.

he is a poor defender, below average 3pt shooter, below average passer, but an above average player when it comes to creating his own shot.

he shouldn't start, but he should dominate the ball when Harden goes out and go up against the other team's second unit. but in the last five minutes of the game you could use a line up of Dwight/Parson/Harden/Lin/Beverley if the teams wants to go small and get some 3pt shooting around Dwight.

Jeremy Lin assist % last year : 30%
Terry / Crawford / Jackson career assist % : 23%/ 20% / 19.5%

you really have some bad information, because Jason Terry, Crawford, and Jackson did not play PG coming off the bench, only scoring guards off the bench which is the point to this whole thing. please use your head before posting because you are just wasting people's time.

[HotRocks34]

Lin may be there (borderline all-star) already. He averaged 18 points and 7 assists per 36 minutes over the last two months of the season, when he was finally healthy. This is almost Chris Paul territory (18.3 points and 10.5 assists per36).

Harden had the ball most of the time, so Lin's assists took a serious hit compared to CP3. But even so, Lin ended up with more assists than Harden -- in spite of playing many fewer minutes than the Beard (2640 versus nearly 3000), and having the ball much less when he did play. As a playmaker, Lin is one of the best in the NBA.

Lin is already looking excellent this preseason. He could force his way into the all-star conversation -- unless the Houston coaches bench him for the crime of being good.

Not yet, in my opinion. But he can get there, perhaps, if he keeps working. All of these guards in the West are likely better than Lin this season:

Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook (if healthy)
Damian Lillard
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker
(Patrick Beverley?)

Still, Lin has a bright future in front of him if he can stay relatively healthy and continue to improve. He clearly has put in a tremendous amount of work this last summer. His 3-point shot and ballhandling look much, much better. His knee looks healthy. His conditioning looks excellent. And, he seems to be in a much better place mentally after apparently really putting himself under intense pressure last season.

The keys for him right now appear to be, to me, the following:

* Continue to work on his defense ------- [defensive stance much improved in 2013 preseason]
* Continue to work on his decision-making (fewer TO's)
* (Continue to work on ballhandling) ----- [clear improvement already]
* (Continue to work on shooting) --------- [clear improvement already]

He's probably never going to be a great defender because his lateral footspeed doesn't seem to be great. But, Steve Nash was never a great defender, either. So that doesn't have to limit Lin. And, he is an excellent player on steals and help defense.

I actually happen to think Houston is a great spot for him at this stage of his career. McHale is tough on him, but that can help him over the long haul. The system isn't tailored for him, and that means he has to work on things (shooting, off-ball offense, playing at different speeds) he wasn't good at before. And now with Patrick Beverley pushing him, he gets to learn how to be more mentally tough and thrive with competition.

I think in a few years, if he keeps working hard and stays healthy, he could be incredibly good. He is already very good, if inconsistent. He probably won't ever have the ball in his hands completely in Houston, but even if he has to move on, in time, to another team, this is the period of his career where he can mold his skills and habits into those that can put him at near-All-Star or All-Star level.

One thing with him is he can flat-out score the ball (even before he could really shoot) and he can rack-up assists of the get-out-of-your-seat variety. Now he just has to refine things a bit, and the future seems extremely bright.

[Kupchak9]

As of now he's comfortably in the late teen's in terms of point guard rankings, which makes him a pretty solid starting point guard in the same class with Teague, Hill and maybe even throw in Walker in there.

[Honey Bear]

I personally don't care anymore whether or not Lin starts or comes off the bench. I think whichever helps the team better is what I'm for. I think Lin/Beverly's minutes should be split, and depending on the match up/situation of a game, it should be decided who is finishing.

[NickAnderson]

Lin a borderline all star?? HAHA

[adambuddy]

If that's the case then Lin is the best option indeed. But will this help Harden's development?

Lin has never seemed to be an impediment to Harden's game. I posted this over at ClutchFans last night and will repeat it here:

Second, the "no chemistry" unit of Lin and Harden put up these numbers in Taiwan:

JL -- 17/2/4
JH -- 21/3/5

Which reminded me of this stat line from last year in a win over OKC

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278524

JL -- 29/6/7
JH -- 46/7/6

That 46 points is a career-high for Harden, I believe.

So, if Harden and Lin don't have very good chemistry, then I'm thinking we may want to stick with the "poor chemistry" formula.

Contrary to popular belief, Lin and Harden work well together. And if Harden wants to play better defense and conserve his energy, then I would think having someone to share playmaking duties with would assist in those goals.

I'm not sure Harden sees things this way, though, based upon how he has appeared to dominate the ball the last two games in terms of running the point and having Jeremy off the ball. We will see how things play out.

I think that you misunderstood me a bit. I didn't imply that there is a poor chemistry between Lin and Harden.

My whole argument revolves around the stable flow of offensive production that a possible staggering of Harden's and Lin's minutes could provide.

Using this same argument I have supported the opinion that my Pacers could consider starting Solomon Hill and letting him play 5 minutes at the start of each half while bringing both Stephenson and Granger off the bench in order to have this same stable flow of offensive production from our wings. That's the basis of my idea.

It isn't solely about the fact that both Lin and Harden are ball dominant players. A lot of it has to do with the idea of staggering their minutes in order to get the most out of them.

If someone who watches every Rockets game like you believes that this combo works well then I can certainly believe you since you know more about your team than the rest of us. But as I said the basis of my idea is not that "they don't work well together"

Kind of disappointed I came into this thread 9 pages in because i'm LTTP and have been arguing this for a while. I agree with you completely. By the end of last season they were playing well with eachother and i've never been opposed to having Lin close games but I think if Lin came off the bench he'd bolster their bench a lot. One of my biggest concerns with that team is the fact that they've got nobody on the bench who can create their own shot.

Beverly - barely a point guard more like a scrappy Bledsoe type guard who can provide good defense and be a spot up 3 point shooter. Usually a PG can create for himself but this one can't lol. Provides value elsewhere obviously
Ronnie Brewer - god no pretty washed up at this point and certainly can't create his own shot
Omar Cassipi - Kind of an interesting role player but can't create
Jones/Donut - Both interesting projects and I like Jones a lot but is he a guy to run a bench unit thru? Nah
Asik - Provides lots of value but not on the offensive end.

Lin is better then a lot of people are giving him credit for and is certainly capable of co-existing with Harden but I love the idea of him getting 2 5-7 minute stretches per game where the offense goes thru him. Give him like 30 minutes a game but let him come off the bench to keep him fresh for those stretches. He could be a 6MOTY candidate if this happens and the bench instantly becomes a massive strength

[13th Man]

As a Lin fan I don't really care whether he starts or plays off the bench as long as the better player ends up with more minutes and finishes most of the the games.

I know that McHale has been leaning towards Beverly as being this guy, hopefully he'll get a good sense of where they stand by end of preseason and throughout the year.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[BaYBaller]

LOL? It's preseason guys. Calm down.

Go look up team stats comparing the same line-ups last year (with sizable minutes) except with Lin/Bev at PG, the difference is not much, both offensive or defensive stats. It's not really a big deal either way if you're looking at it from a team success standpoint over a large sample size. I would be very surprised if Lin comes off the bench to start the season because stability in line-ups is important (especially with young teams), and you only make a change as a coach if you feel there is a significant advantage to be gained, which in this case there isn't (at least statistically).

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

"Should Lin come off the bench?"

Nope. He should stay there.


(I kid. I kid.)

[inquisitive]

The Rockets play at a very fast pace, so Lin's TOs are a bit misleading. Also, the bigs need to learn how to catch the pass better too.

[junot111]

I like the idea of starting Lin, then taking him out somewhat early(but not too early to the point where theres no point in starting him at all) and let Beverley play with the 1st unit for a bit, then when the second unit comes in you bring back Lin with them, then when it's time to bring the starters back you leave Lin in with them. Repeat. (In other words staggering the minutes of Lin so he plays with both the first unit and the second)

[Manitoba]

Lin may be there (borderline all-star) already. He averaged 18 points and 7 assists per 36 minutes over the last two months of the season, when he was finally healthy. This is almost Chris Paul territory (18.3 points and 10.5 assists per36).

Harden had the ball most of the time, so Lin's assists took a serious hit compared to CP3. But even so, Lin ended up with more assists than Harden -- in spite of playing many fewer minutes than the Beard (2640 versus nearly 3000), and having the ball much less when he did play. As a playmaker, Lin is one of the best in the NBA.

Lin is already looking excellent this preseason. He could force his way into the all-star conversation -- unless the Houston coaches bench him for the crime of being good.

Not yet, in my opinion. But he can get there, perhaps, if he keeps working.

I don't think so either, not this year. All I said was that Lin could force himself into the all-star conversation this year, not that he would be chosen.

All of these guards in the West are likely better than Lin this season:

Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook (if healthy)
Damian Lillard
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker
(Patrick Beverley?)

Of the western PGs, only CP3, Parker, Westbrook, and maybe Curry are better than Lin right now, IMHO. Lillard is only a shooter; Lin is better at everything else, especially passing and defense. (I think you must be joking about Beverley.) So Lin is top 5 in the West among PGs; that is definitely in the all-star conversation.

I think in a few years, if he keeps working hard and stays healthy, he could be incredibly good. He is already very good, if inconsistent. He probably won't ever have the ball in his hands completely in Houston, but even if he has to move on, in time, to another team, this is the period of his career where he can mold his skills and habits into those that can put him at near-All-Star or All-Star level.

One thing with him is he can flat-out score the ball (even before he could really shoot) and he can rack-up assists of the get-out-of-your-seat variety. Now he just has to refine things a bit, and the future seems extremely bright.

Absolutely!

[Manitoba]

Lin a borderline all star?? HAHA

It could happen. For a young player, the trend is what's important, not the career numbers -- for the obvious reason that a young player has not had much of a career yet.

For Lin, the trend is that he improved constantly all last season. By the end of the year, when he finally got healthy, he was averaging 18 points and 7 assists per 36 minutes, which is nearly Chris Paul level (18 / 10 per 36). And Lin has been scorching it this preseason. So yes, he could be a borderline all-star soon.

[HotRocks34]

I don't think so either, not this year. All I said was that Lin could force himself into the all-star conversation this year, not that he would be chosen.

That's fair, you did say "borderline."

Jeremy has improved considerably this summer, from what I can see. He's healthy now. He still has a long way to go in terms of improving his game, but there is no reason to think, in my mind, he can't get there. I'm excited about his future.

As I said before, I don't know if he will ever be a great defender because he does seem to have limitations with lateral footspeed. But he is very good with steals and help defense. So, the defensive issue can probably be managed and he is working to improve his defense, I know.

[Seralin]

I think Beverly has shown enough to earn the starting PG position

He's a better defender and has shown that opposing PGs are scared of him because of what he did to Westbrook

So I agree Lin should be coming off the bench

Lin is overrated anyway

If injuring a player is to ensure you scare others, then it is likely he will be on the opposite side of that equation soon enough. Going with the most recent examples, every team has a Haslem or Andersen lurking around, and not everyone is as careful as them.

[tsherkin]

Lin is not a guy you want playing over 30 mpg at this point. He's about league-average in scorin efficiency and remains a massive turnover factory who isn't particularly good on D.

That doesn't add up to "starter" to me.

[Manitoba]

Lin is not a guy you want playing over 30 mpg at this point. He's about league-average in scorin efficiency and remains a massive turnover factory who isn't particularly good on D.

That doesn't add up to "starter" to me.

I think you and I have had a go before on Lin's turnovers. How can you repeat that he's a "massive turnover factory" when many great guards are worse? Here's a list of some of the top turnover perpetrators (per 36 minutes):

Ricky Rubio 3.7
James Harden 3.6
Jrue Holiday 3.6
John Wall 3.5
Kyrie Irving 3.4
Russell Westbrook 3.4
Jeremy Lin 3.2
Damian Lillard 2.8

So according to you, Rubio, Harden, Wall, Irving, and Westbrook must be "supermassive turnover machines" and not deserving of being starters, since they lose the ball more often than Lin. That's nonsense of course, and so is your assertion.

Now for scoring efficiency. As I wrote above, for a young player the trend is what's important, not the career numbers -- for the obvious reason that a young player has not had much of a career yet.

For Lin, here is the trend on his true shooting percentage last season:

Games 1 to 20: TS% = 0.487
Games 21 to 40: TS% = 0.532
Games 41 to 60: TS% = 0.559
Games 61 to 82: TS% = 0.567

As you can see, he improved steadily throughout the season as he recovered from knee surgery. The last figure (0.567), achieved when he was finally healthy, would put him in the top 10 of starting PGs. This is well above average. And likely not a fluke, given the clear trend and his performance so far in preseason. So you are also wrong about Lin being less than average as a shooter.

I think you are being unfair to Lin, and you need to revise your opinion.