GOAT SF

[Warspite]

80's defense was worse than now though...

Thats not the point. The biggest differance is the whistle. Bird playing today would get more open 3pt shots and 3-5 of of misses would be fouls today sending him to the FT line. So if you take 4 FGAs away and give him 6 more FTs his TS% sky rockets and it looks like hes a much better offensive player today than he was in the 80s. That has nothing to do with the defenses. Its just simple math that if you take twice as many 3s and twice as many FTs and you shoot 40% and 90% your going to look like a much better player even if your not.


If you play basketball trying to have the highest adv stats you will have better adv stats than a player who is better than you but doesnt have that goal.

If you and I raced to Vegas and I was trying to drive faster but you were concentrating on mpg then you will have better mileage than me but Im still getting there 1st.

[Erudite]

Brenice is on point.

How could someone say World Peace saved Kobe when Ray Allen made the big shots? Come on, people.

[PaulieWal]

Brenice is on point.

How could someone say World Peace saved Kobe when Ray Allen made the big shots? Come on, people.

Same way people like you say Allen saved LeBron, whatever that means. I guess you didn't read my post properly. Ray Allen made one big shot not big shots. LeBron made the 3 before that. Its 5 vs. 5 not 1 vs 5. You know, it's a team game.

LeBron saved his team in that 4th quarter by taking over and then Allen "saved" him by hitting that 3. Wow, what a radical concept. I guess the team plays together toward one goal. As for MWP, he was called the MVP of that game 7 by PJ himself. So if you think Allen saved LeBron, MWP saved Kobe.

[mademan]

Lebron averages what, 6 FT attempts per game? Larry would average more? I'm pretty sure FT attempts has remained pretty much the same since the 80's. 3's? He wouldn't get a boost there.

3's. Yah, he probably would shoot a higher TS % if he took more 3's. The problem with that thinking, though, is that youre now comparing across eras. What would Lebrons stats look like playing in the uber fast paced of the 80's? He'd be getting transition buckets all game.

And I don't understand your last point. Lebrons approach to making every possession count started as about 2 years ago. It's led to a historical offensive season last year (top 3 Im pretty sure) for him and his team. How can him making a concious effort to get the best possible shot for him and his team be seen as a negative?

[PaulieWal]

How can him making a concious effort to get the best possible shot for him and his team be seen as a negative?

Because real stars go 1 on 5 every possession and rely on mental toughness and the clutch gene which we all know LeBron doesn't have. LeBron is a coward for looking for the easy way out by looking for open teammates. Come on, how do people not understand his?

[Brenice]

How can him making a concious effort to get the best possible shot for him and his team be seen as a negative?

Because real stars go 1 on 5 every possession and rely on mental toughness and the clutch gene which we all know LeBron doesn't have. LeBron is a coward for looking for the easy way out by looking for open teammates. Come on, how do people not understand his?

The reason the Heat were losing the series in the first place was because LeBron was left wide open and dared to shoot from mid-range and passed out to lesser players for lower percentage shots. The best basketball play in those instances was for LeBron to shoot, not pass.

[PaulieWal]

How can him making a concious effort to get the best possible shot for him and his team be seen as a negative?

Because real stars go 1 on 5 every possession and rely on mental toughness and the clutch gene which we all know LeBron doesn't have. LeBron is a coward for looking for the easy way out by looking for open teammates. Come on, how do people not understand his?

The reason the Heat were losing the series in the first place was because LeBron was left wide open and dared to shoot from mid-range and passed out to lesser players for lower percentage shots. The best basketball play in those instances was for LeBron to shoot, not pass.

I am pretty sure I have had this talk with you before. You were saying in some other thread that LeBron should be "ashamed" that it took Miami 7 games to beat the Spurs. That was you right?

I am not even sure what the point of your post is when Miami won the series, LeBron got FMVP, and destroyed them in game 7 with his jumper.

Please, at least make arguments which are reasonable. That is just a statement without any context, logic, and objectivity. Try again.

[Brenice]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

[PaulieWal]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

Okay, but it didn't. The shot did go in. So what is the point? You can dislike LeBron or any other personal player but these are kind of arguments are completely biased, useless, and show a lack of rationality.

You are acting like that shot alone was worth 10 points. It's like you don't read what people write. LeBron single-handedly took over the game in the 4th and brought his team back. If LeBron didn't bring his team back, Allen's shot would not be in this discussion.

See how that works? For the love of god, it's a team game for this very reason.

[MisterHibachi]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

Why are you trying to penalize LeBron for something that didn't happen?

[therealbig3]

And if Paxson and Kerr didn't hit their clutch shots...

And if Fisher and Horry didn't hit their clutch shots...

Every great player has had big time help on the way to a championship. IDK why LeBron is supposed to be the one guy who doesn't get it.

[PaulieWal]

And if Paxson and Kerr didn't hit their clutch shots...

And if Fisher and Horry didn't hit their clutch shots...

Every great player has had big time help on the way to a championship. IDK why LeBron is supposed to be the one guy who doesn't get it.

Yeah, Fisher's 0.4 was even crazier. If he doesn't hit that the Spurs probably end up winning the series and the Lakers never go to the Finals and lose but I am sure according to Brenice that's pointless anyway. It's better to not make the Finals and lose than make the Finals and lose (I am sure that will be his reply, not that I think that).

[poopdamoop]

80's defense was worse than now though...

Thats not the point. The biggest differance is the whistle. Bird playing today would get more open 3pt shots and 3-5 of of misses would be fouls today sending him to the FT line. So if you take 4 FGAs away and give him 6 more FTs his TS% sky rockets and it looks like hes a much better offensive player today than he was in the 80s. That has nothing to do with the defenses. Its just simple math that if you take twice as many 3s and twice as many FTs and you shoot 40% and 90% your going to look like a much better player even if your not.


If you play basketball trying to have the highest adv stats you will have better adv stats than a player who is better than you but doesnt have that goal.

If you and I raced to Vegas and I was trying to drive faster but you were concentrating on mpg then you will have better mileage than me but Im still getting there 1st.

Free throws attempted per team:

1986 Celtics - 2162 (26.4/game). League average is 2482, or 30.3/game
2013 Heat - 1887 (23/game). League average is 1818, or 22.2/game

So there's a huge difference in the number of free throws attempted over time, as teams shoot way fewer overall. Bird never shot more than 6 a game in his time, why would that suddenly go up?

[D.Brasco]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

Do you know how many last second shots (often by role players) have decided big games in NBA history? yet only lebron has to bear the burden of that? Was Derek fishers .4 shot ever used to disparage Shaq and kobe? or any of the shots Robert horry put up to help out the spurs in key games?

Are we even forgetting who got the heat in the position to win by that shot in the first place? it sure as hell wasn't ray allen.

[jjgp111292]

I still have Bird for Career & Peak.

Lebron is great but people forget all those years he disappointed in elimination (2013 was no exception).

He can probably surpass Bird in the next 2-3 years though.

Bird's had his share of disappoints, too. Even Bill Simmons has admitted that. He didn't even play particularly well in the '81 finals despite the Celtics winning.

[Brenice]

If LeBron took those open shots, Ray's shot wouldn't have been necessary. The Heat would have won in 5 instead of being in position where they should have lost in 6.

[INKtastic]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

you act like Bird never won a finals game because a teammate made a big play. They lose game 2 in 1984 (the series went 7 games) without Gerald Henderson's steal and layup. ANd were at risk of losing game 7 before Cedric Maxwell made a critical steal.

Why are you picking a finals game LeBron had 32/11/10 and his team won to criticize him over?

[Warspite]

80's defense was worse than now though...

Thats not the point. The biggest differance is the whistle. Bird playing today would get more open 3pt shots and 3-5 of of misses would be fouls today sending him to the FT line. So if you take 4 FGAs away and give him 6 more FTs his TS% sky rockets and it looks like hes a much better offensive player today than he was in the 80s. That has nothing to do with the defenses. Its just simple math that if you take twice as many 3s and twice as many FTs and you shoot 40% and 90% your going to look like a much better player even if your not.


If you play basketball trying to have the highest adv stats you will have better adv stats than a player who is better than you but doesnt have that goal.

If you and I raced to Vegas and I was trying to drive faster but you were concentrating on mpg then you will have better mileage than me but Im still getting there 1st.

Free throws attempted per team:

1986 Celtics - 2162 (26.4/game). League average is 2482, or 30.3/game
2013 Heat - 1887 (23/game). League average is 1818, or 22.2/game

So there's a huge difference in the number of free throws attempted over time, as teams shoot way fewer overall. Bird never shot more than 6 a game in his time, why would that suddenly go up?

Thats exactly my point. Bird style would allow him to get about 30% more fouls because he played in the 80s which was able to get 30% more FTs per game than the slower/less physical players of today. Then you have to account for the 4-5 non calls he used to get that would be fouls today and then factor in that since hes used to playing at a much faster pace than any player can play that his stamina would much bigger and he could play several more mpg.

I dont get the argument that a player who avged 6FTAs in the NBA today couldnt get more FTs if he played against NCAA players. Imgine how happy he would be to know that instead of having play against Nique, King, Tripuka, English, Dantley, DrJ and Worthy than he only has to face Deng, Melo, Milsap, Gay, Turner, Delfino and Leonard?

[PaulieWal]

If LeBron took those open shots, Ray's shot wouldn't have been necessary. The Heat would have won in 5 instead of being in position where they should have lost in 6.

What? LeBron was the one who brought them back in game 6 when they were down 10. He was shooting poorly first 3 quarters and Miami was actually up 3 before Parker hit a 3 in the last 2 minutes.

Stop trolling man.

[Brenice]

Yes the Heat one and LeBron won FMVP. But if Ray's shot rimmed out...let's just say LeBron would not be in this discussion.

you act like Bird never won a finals game because a teammate made a big play. They lose game 2 in 1984 (the series went 7 games) without Gerald Henderson's steal and layup. ANd were at risk of losing game 7 before Cedric Maxwell made a critical steal.

Why are you picking a finals game LeBron had 32/11/10 and his team won to criticize him over?

I'm saying LeBron should not have been facing 2 elimination games in the Fiinals with home court advantage because he was passing up wide open/uncontested shots.

Sure other players make plays, but describe what Bird was doing to cause the Celtics to face elimination with HCA. LeBron being gun-shy from 15 feet over and over and passing to shooters who had to shoot from 30 feet because LeBron sucked the life out of the shot click. That is not the best basketball play and they faced elimination twice with HCA because of it. It should have been a 6 game series max with the Spurs facing elimination in 6.