GOAT SF

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GOAT SF

Larry Bird
30
31%
LeBron
65
66%
Pippen
1
1%
Dr. J
2
2%
 
Total votes: 98

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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#81 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:17 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
Brenice wrote:If LeBron took those open shots, Ray's shot wouldn't have been necessary. The Heat would have won in 5 instead of being in position where they should have lost in 6.


What? LeBron was the one who brought them back in game 6 when they were down 10. He was shooting poorly first 3 quarters and Miami was actually up 3 before Parker hit a 3 in the last 2 minutes.

Stop making me mad.


Should never have gotten to the point where the Heat were on life support.

LeBron is a GOAT-level talent whose foibles can be GOAT-level and caused his team to lose with HCA against Dallas and be 10 seconds from elimination down 2 scores against the Spurs. They have to be in his narrative when talking GOAT-level anything. To whom much is given, much is required. That's why he will never surpass Jordan for overall GOAT. In this comparison, I did choose LeBron over Bird for GOAT SF though.

Oh yeah, fixed your post for you.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#82 » by poopdamoop » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:21 pm

Warspite wrote:

Thats exactly my point. Bird style would allow him to get about 30% more fouls because he played in the 80s which was able to get 30% more FTs per game than the slower/less physical players of today. Then you have to account for the 4-5 non calls he used to get that would be fouls today and then factor in that since hes used to playing at a much faster pace than any player can play that his stamina would much bigger and he could play several more mpg.

I dont get the argument that a player who avged 6FTAs in the NBA today couldnt get more FTs if he played against NCAA players. Imgine how happy he would be to know that instead of having play against Nique, King, Tripuka, English, Dantley, DrJ and Worthy than he only has to face Deng, Melo, Milsap, Gay, Turner, Delfino and Leonard?


This is a joke post right? Today's NBA players are slower and less physical? And I like how you list a bunch of poor defending SFs from the 80s as proof that Bird would be better offensively in this era.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#83 » by RayBan-Sematra » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:22 pm

I was never really overly critical of Lebron's G6. In the end he had a good game statistically (I believe) and there is nothing wrong with having a roleplayer hit a big clutch shot.

What I did criticize Lebron for was his poor play in the first few games of the series.
That poor play made it so G6 was an elimination game.

For a player of his caliber to "choke" in the first couple games of a Finals series is certainly a disappointment and for me definitely put a small black mark on what was otherwise a pretty flawless season.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#84 » by wallsfamily » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:55 pm

OK Brenice! Lebron is so good that he can decide to lose Two games and still win the championship. Get real man! All time leading scorer in game 7's. Here is the deal. I think Lebron passed Bird with last year. Bird was a better rebounder, shooter and just as good of a passer. Lebron is the better defender, has more ways to score, athletically in another world and is versitale enough to play 4 positions. Lebron won rookie of the year starting at point guard! Think about that! Four MVP's in a league with Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. Two finals MVP's!
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#85 » by Swagalicious » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:12 pm

Brenice wrote:
Swagalicious wrote:Career-wise Bird, peak give me LeBron any day and he'll eventually surpass him, too

Imo Bird is vastly overrated. For a guy to have so many playoff failures and lack of great defensive play to still be heralded as he is is ridiculous


What failured, trading rings with the Showtime Lakers? LeBron has done worse.


Failures like coming up short in the postseason more than any other top-10 ATG candidate (which LeBron is not to me atm, firmly at 11). Yeah he's done worse which is why he's not above Bird career-wise yet. Had he not s.hit the bed in 2011 he'd be over him, though.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#86 » by PaulieWal » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:15 pm

Brenice wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Brenice wrote:If LeBron took those open shots, Ray's shot wouldn't have been necessary. The Heat would have won in 5 instead of being in position where they should have lost in 6.


What? LeBron was the one who brought them back in game 6 when they were down 10. He was shooting poorly first 3 quarters and Miami was actually up 3 before Parker hit a 3 in the last 2 minutes.

Stop making me mad.


Should never have gotten to the point where the Heat were on life support.

LeBron is a GOAT-level talent whose foibles can be GOAT-level and caused his team to lose with HCA against Dallas and be 10 seconds from elimination down 2 scores against the Spurs. They have to be in his narrative when talking GOAT-level anything. To whom much is given, much is required. That's why he will never surpass Jordan for overall GOAT. In this comparison, I did choose LeBron over Bird for GOAT SF though.

Oh yeah, fixed your post for you.


Haha yeah you are definitely not trolling by "fixing" my posts for me. :roll: :roll:

Man I don't get mad that easily, especially on an online anonymous forum. Now you are trying to change the topic and completely derail it. Look, what happened against Dallas is a indefensible but this thread and your arguments weren't about that. Nobody mentioned LeBron is going to overtake Jordan in this thread and I don't think most LeBron fans thinks that either. Again, I say, you are trolling and trying to derail the thread.

Your argument has been about the Spurs-Miami series. Your arguments have been constantly ripped apart, ant not just by me but by other posters as well. First you said if that didn't happen, or if Ray didn't hit the shot, or 10 seconds this or that. Who cares? What is the point of all this? LeBron won the FMVP and Miami won the series. He killed the Spurs in game 7 with 37/12.

FWIW, he was the top scorer in the series by a wide margin. Holding Ray Allen's shot against him or saying he was this many seconds away from elimination sounds like sour grapes to me.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#87 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:27 pm

Whenever you resort to attacking someone, you must be mad for some reason. Lol. It's cool.

You focus on what happened after Ray hit the 3. That's your perogative. But I look at the whole picture. I do believe right now, despite his flaws, that LeBron is the GOAT SF. But I will still hold him accountable for putting the Heat in a bad position where they lose with HCA BECAUSE of him. My problem with LeBron is that the only person that can stop LeBron is LeBron himself. There is no team or scheme. It's all in his head and that is where his weakness is and HAS to be dealt with in ANY kind of GOAT discussion. The King should not choke or have his confidence shaken BADLY.

Don't talk the talk without walking the walk. I thought LeBron had learned after "The Disappearance" against Dallas. He blamed himself for that and I give him credit for rectifying that against OKC. But he did the same thing against the Spurs, until Ray hit the 3.

"The Decision"
"The Disappearance" against OKC
"The Daring" by San Antonio

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#88 » by PaulieWal » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:55 pm

Brenice wrote:Whenever you resort to attacking someone, you must be mad for some reason. Lol. It's cool.

You focus on what happened after Ray hit the 3. That's your perogative. But I look at the whole picture. I do believe right now, despite his flaws, that LeBron is the GOAT SF. But I will still hold him accountable for putting the Heat in a bad position where they lose with HCA BECAUSE of him. My problem with LeBron is that the only person that can stop LeBron is LeBron himself. There is no team or scheme. It's all in his head and that is where his weakness is and HAS to be dealt with in ANY kind of GOAT discussion. The King should not choke or have his confidence shaken BADLY.

Don't talk the talk without walking the walk. I thought LeBron had learned after "The Disappearance" against Dallas. He blamed himself for that and I give him credit for rectifying that against OKC. But he did the same thing against the Spurs, until Ray hit the 3.

"The Decision"
"The Disappearance" against OKC
"The Daring" by San Antonio

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


I didn't attack you, I just said you are trolling because you are. That doesn't make me mad at all. I am not sure why you think I am "mad". Believe me, an online anonymous forum is the last place I will get mad. Anyway, back on point, I say you are trolling because your point makes no sense.

As I and others have pointed out, countless other role players have hit big shots to help their teams in big moments yet when Allen does it, it is somehow held against LeBron. I wonder why that is?

You said you look at the bigger picture? Okay, so why do you keep on ignoring the fact that without LeBron Miami would be down a lot more than 5 in the final 28 seconds. For the millionth time, it's a team game. He brought his team all the way back in the 4th and then a TEAM MEMBER helped the entire team (not just LeBron) but hitting the game tying 3. It's a team game, not 1 vs 5.

You said I am only looking at what happened after the Allen 3? What? If you really want to dissect the series, the truly bad games LeBron had were games 3 and 5.

Game 1 he had 18 18 10 and if not for a freak shot by Tony Parker (see how that works) Miami could have won that game.
Game 2 he struggled early on but led the team when they blew out the Spurs 33-5.
Game 3 Unacceptable
Game 4 One of the two best players on the floor along with Wade
Game 5 Bad
Game 6 Struggled early on, epic 4th quarter.
Game 7 Best player on the floor.

It's you who is not looking at the big picture.

I don't get it. Sports is ultimately result oriented. His team won the ring, he won the FMVP and he was the leading scorer in the series by a wide margin at only 25.3. That should tell you it what kind of a series it was. Yet, you keep on saying if that didn't happen and this didn't happen. Guess what, all of it happened and he won. That's all that matters.

It's funny how first people said he couldn't win and he was a choker and this and that. Now he wins, people are still saying "well he didn't win that convincingly". What?

Anyway, I have said it before if you were an objective NBA fan (you can hate LeBron for all I care), you wouldn't be making these asinine points.

Also I am assuming you mean the disappearance is against Dallas not OKC.
JordansBulls wrote:The Warriors are basically a good college team until they meet a team with bigs in the NBA.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#89 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:46 pm

Well games 3&5 are the problems cause for real San Antonio had the series won and blew it. Sure role players make plays, but Ray's shot was mandatory because of 3&5. If LeBron played like he is certainly capable, 3&5 would have been Miami wins. Certainly you are not advocating LeBron playing a final series that includes a 3&5 this year and his team down 3-2 by 2 scores with only 10 seconds left and the opponent on the line. I don't advise it. Hopefully LeBron realizes it, even if his fans don't.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#90 » by MisterHibachi » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:56 pm

But I will still hold him accountable for putting the Heat in a bad position where they lose with HCA BECAUSE of him.


Other than Dallas in '11 Miami has never lost with HCA, or any series actually, so I don't know why he is being penalized for what ifs and why you're holding a what if against him.

I thought LeBron had learned after "The Disappearance" against Dallas. He blamed himself for that and I give him credit for rectifying that against OKC. But he did the same thing against the Spurs, until Ray hit the 3.


He disappeared in that 4th quarter against the Spurs? Really? Who was the one who brought them all the way back from the brink. Who was the one who hit that three before Ray hit his?

Don't talk the talk without walking the walk.


Two Finals MVPs is quite the walk.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#91 » by PaulieWal » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:44 pm

Brenice wrote:Well games 3&5 are the problems cause for real San Antonio had the series won and blew it. Sure role players make plays, but Ray's shot was mandatory because of 3&5. If LeBron played like he is certainly capable, 3&5 would have been Miami wins. Certainly you are not advocating LeBron playing a final series that includes a 3&5 this year and his team down 3-2 by 2 scores with only 10 seconds left and the opponent on the line. I don't advise it. Hopefully LeBron realizes it, even if his fans don't.



Hahahaha...man I am actually laughing as I am replying to your response here. So now we are down to penalizing LeBron because his role player's shot was "mandatory" but for other stars it wasn't? Right? That's your whole argument now. Role players have always hit big shots but for LeBron it is different because it was "mandatory".

It's not enough to admit rationally that LeBron sucked in games 3 & 5 but we should penalize him for winning the series in 7 because he wasn't good in 3 &5.

I don't think anyone rooting for Heat or LeBron is advocating that it was an ideal situation but that's sports. Many other teams have struggled throughout their championship runs but I don't see anyone saying well they didn't win convincingly enough or if this hypothetical didn't happen or that hypothetical didn't happen they would have lost. You can talk about those points in the aftermath of the game but overall, I would give the team or player his due.

Oh, well man. I come here to talk hoops with rational fans. Your biases are clear and pretty funny.

It's funny that LeBron doesn't just have to win, he has to win in specific restrictive manners or LeBron might not as well win because, well, he didn't win the way you want him to. I am not sure any other player in NBA history has that kind of burden placed on him. You can win but only in the way I think it's acceptable otherwise your winning comes with an asterisk.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#92 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:22 pm

I'll just say this and be done with it. LeBron is a GOAT level talent who is prone to play at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition, moreso than any other GOAT level talent in history.

Am I biased, no, I'm disappointed because I predicted that he would be GOAT until he was on a team he was EXPECTED to win with. Then his flaws appeared.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#93 » by AshyLarry » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:42 am

its lebron already (damn it pains me alot to say this too), but peak its still bird for me. lebron is entering the top 6 now. an mvp or another fmvp will leapfrog him ahead of kobe, bird, magic, duncan, and shaq (and i hate saying this too). he still a btch though... (lol i know im a butt hurt hater but atleast im an honest hater)
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#94 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:24 pm

Brenice wrote:I'll just say this and be done with it. LeBron is a GOAT level talent who is prone to play at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition, moreso than any other GOAT level talent in history.

Am I biased, no, I'm disappointed because I predicted that he would be GOAT until he was on a team he was EXPECTED to win with. Then his flaws appeared.



Image



LeBron plays at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition?

I don't know why I'm even bothering with actual facts but here we go nonetheless:

- LeBron PPG in playoff game 7s: 34.4 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history

- LeBron PPG in playoff elimination games: 31.9 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#95 » by Brenice » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:32 pm

RonySeikalyFTW wrote:
Brenice wrote:I'll just say this and be done with it. LeBron is a GOAT level talent who is prone to play at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition, moreso than any other GOAT level talent in history.

Am I biased, no, I'm disappointed because I predicted that he would be GOAT until he was on a team he was EXPECTED to win with. Then his flaws appeared.



Image



LeBron plays at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition?

I don't know why I'm even bothering with actual facts but here we go nonetheless:

- LeBron PPG in playoff game 7s: 34.4 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history

- LeBron PPG in playoff elimination games: 31.9 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history


Since he joined Miami, why is he playing in so many games where Miami faces elimination? The way the Heat is stacked, especially with the King, the Heat should not be facing elimination with home court advantage. Period.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#96 » by poopdamoop » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:44 pm

Brenice wrote:
RonySeikalyFTW wrote:
Brenice wrote:I'll just say this and be done with it. LeBron is a GOAT level talent who is prone to play at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition, moreso than any other GOAT level talent in history.

Am I biased, no, I'm disappointed because I predicted that he would be GOAT until he was on a team he was EXPECTED to win with. Then his flaws appeared.



Image



LeBron plays at levels below his talent during the highest level of competition?

I don't know why I'm even bothering with actual facts but here we go nonetheless:

- LeBron PPG in playoff game 7s: 34.4 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history

- LeBron PPG in playoff elimination games: 31.9 PPG = #1 all-time in NBA history


Since he joined Miami, why is he playing in so many games where Miami faces elimination? The way the Heat is stacked, especially with the King, the Heat should not be facing elimination with home court advantage. Period.


Probably because his 2nd and 3rd best players are injured all the time.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#97 » by Brenice » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:12 pm

poopdamoop wrote:Since he joined Miami, why is he playing in so many games where Miami faces elimination? The way the Heat is stacked, especially with the King, the Heat should not be facing elimination with home court advantage. Period.


Probably because his 2nd and 3rd best players are injured all the time.[/quote]

You mean injured like Tony Parker getting injured during the Finals?
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#98 » by FortyDaysThree » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:40 pm

Pippen doesn't belong on this list. Only Dr. J, Bird, and LeBron deserve consideration. I'm going with Bird but LeBron is close.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#99 » by Swagalicious » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:42 pm

Brenice wrote:
poopdamoop wrote:Since he joined Miami, why is he playing in so many games where Miami faces elimination? The way the Heat is stacked, especially with the King, the Heat should not be facing elimination with home court advantage. Period.


Probably because his 2nd and 3rd best players are injured all the time.


You mean injured like Tony Parker getting injured during the Finals?[/quote]

Never happened. LeBron was 100% responsible for shutting him down, coincidentally this only happened after TP got injured but W/E. I give him props for showing up in game 6 and 7 but I can't help but laught about the fact that those 5 quarters somehow rectify the other 4 stinkers he put up.

For example, Kobe had three bad shooting nights in 2010 - G2, G3 and G7. He was very efficient in all the others, including three straight from G4-G6 but somehow he doesn't get a pass because his team failed to show up in his back to back 30+ @ 60TS% games.

His 2013 Finals are imo the weakest of any FMVP recently, except TP 07. Dirk 11 has worse numbers but he was insanely clutch. Kobe 09 and his own 12 Finals were both easily better and Kobe 10 is very arguable (as I've shown above, plus his D on Rondo and help on KG for 7, not 2 games should be well-documented).

I don't know what's up with the LeBron game 7 cult. Dude was mostly responsible for his team being taken to 7 in the first place.
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Re: GOAT SF 

Post#100 » by CousinOfDeath » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:43 pm

If Lebron retired today I'd say Bird but he'll surpass him very, very soon. He's already top 10 all time tbh.
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