ATL: Preseason edition (Is Hayward worth $50mm pg15)

[TroyD92]

I was thinking 8 or 9 a year prior to this coming out, I still wouldn't go over that if I was the Jazz but there's more than just talent involved in this one.

ETA-Sorry he's not close to the same caliber as Paul George though.

Yes he is. Sure George is a better athlete, defender and rebounder but Hayward is a significantly better shooter, and is a more versatile offensive player who can run the offense, play off ball or as a PnR handler. He scores at a better rate than George and turns the ball over less. They are most certainly similar caliber players and its silly that members of a board with as many smart posters as this one can't see that.

George is the far superior player and I don't know how you can even argue it.

[mattg]

Yes. Alright so George is a better defender, but Hayward is still a good defensive player. George is an elite athlete, hayward is a very good athlete. But Hayward is a better offensive player, especially in the halfcourt. Significantly better shooter, better ball handler who can run play PG/SG/SF. It's not that hard to follow here.

George is a better player than Hayward but its not by much. There are very much similar caliber players. Hayward is better on offense, George is better defensively. George isn't a bad offensive player just like Hayward isn't a bad defender.

[Siefer]

I think Utah is stupid to pay Hayward that type of money. Horrific. He's a great glue guy but your payroll is killed if you pay $12mm a year for a guy like that. His ceiling is not Bird or even Paul George IMO. His best case IMO is the NBA version of Toni Kukoc but I don't see him being that good.

If he blows up, then you pay him or match next summer.

Pretty sure Toni Kukoc is the NBA version of Toni Kukoc.

[Baddy Chuck]

Hayward may have the ability to run PG/SG/SF, but I'd say George has shown much more of it and has been more effective at being a lead guard ala say Harden. Hayward has been much more of a #2 guy then the #1 guy IMO, and George last season really showed he was one of the top guys in the league in that position. I mean Hayward could put it together more this season with more responsibility but he has not shown the same amount as Goerge. Not even really close IMO.

[Nebula1]

I'm really interested in seeing what Ed Davis gets.

As am I. He's been fitting in nicely with the Grizz and it'd be nice for him to find a home with that team.

[mattg]

Hayward may have the ability to run PG/SG/SF, but I'd say George has shown much more of it and has been more effective at being a lead guard ala say Harden. Hayward has been much more of a #2 guy then the #1 guy IMO, and George last season really showed he was one of the top guys in the league in that position. I mean Hayward could put it together more this season with more responsibility but he has not shown the same amount as Goerge. Not even really close IMO.

Really? George makes way more simple ball handling errors and isn't as good of a decision maker in the pick n roll which is why he turns it over more. Combined with George's struggles to make jump shots in halfcourt settings(he's a deadeye transition shooter but his efficacy dips in the halfcourt) I think Hayward is pretty clearly a superior offensive player at this point. George is sorta like John wall in that he's such an athletic freak and so good in transition but can be limited otherwise. I don't know where this parallel with George to harden is, there is no comparison IMO. George is great because of his all around game. He much more so fits the bill of a super glue guy Andre Iggy type than of a top offensive option.

You guys get all caught up because the pacers played the heat tough. Never mind the fact that the pacers frontline exploiting Miami's biggest weakness is the whole reason that series was close.

[paulpressey25]

Pretty sure Toni Kukoc is the NBA version of Toni Kukoc.

Kukoc didn't come over to the NBA until he was 25 years old. Some considered him a better player in Europe.

[paulpressey25]

George is sorta like John wall in that he's such an athletic freak

That's why he's capable of elevating to max contract play and carrying the Pacers at times last year. Again, this is a fun discussion, but I just don't see Gordon anywhere near that type of actual production or future potential.

And the bigger issue is whether or not signing him to say a 4/$50 ($12.5mm per year) is a smart move.

For me, judging contracts is how tradeable is the deal the minute after it was signed. I think we easily move Larry Sanders at 4/$44 to a bevy of teams that would want him. Would teams really be opening up to give up even neutral assets tomorrow for Hawyard at 4/$50?

[Baddy Chuck]

George should have more turnovers, he was used in nearly 1000 more plays last season including nearly triple the amount of isolation plays and double the amount of pick and roll plays. Even with that, George has higher PPP in both of those situations. The only situations where Hayward is superior is spot up jumpers and off screens, exactly where one would expect a secondary player to be most effective and get most of their opportunities. I wasn't comparing George to Harden, I'm saying George has shown so much more of the ability to be a lead guard then Hayward has. Hayward is most effective and does most of his damage on offense with a point guard getting him the ball whereas George is better at going out and creating offense.

Like I said though, maybe Hayward takes a big step towards showing he can keep up his efficiency with the ball in his hands more but as of now it isn't even close what of the two a team would want with the ball in their hands on the perimeter.

[jr lucosa]

I think Hayward is a solid player but I don't know if I even see him as a #2 kind of guy. Capable on the defensive end (though nothing special), smart, high IQ kind of guy, he can make the right pass similar to JJ Redick but he's not a guy who's going to create many buckets for teammates outside of just making the right pass.

OK at the rim, inconsistent mid range shooter. The one spot where his offense really shines is from three and that's the one time he's hardly ever creating his own shot as 91% of his 3's were assisted last year.

He's a solid complimentary player, but not a guy who you can give the ball to and tell to make plays possession after possession if you want to win games. He's young and still has some potential, but even if he reaches his potential I really question if he'll be worth 12+ mil a season, and again similar to John Wall, if he proves that he is worth the money then just match an offer next off-season. I don't understand what these teams are doing offering these guys big contracts when you still have these guys under contracts for a year and they are RFA's the following off season, especially players who still have a lot to prove.

[Turk Nowitzki]

Just seeing in the wiretap that Nerlens Noel is probably not going to play at all this year. Was that expected because I was surprised to read that.

[paulpressey25]

If I were Utah, I wouldn't be signing either to $48 to $50mm contracts. Utah is still at least one stud away from having a core you'd go forward with. I'd be keeping my options open. Frankly, I'd rather have only Larry Sanders at 4/$44 plus the flexibility you get than to have both Favors and Hayward on my team tied up at $100 million.

[paulpressey25]

Just seeing in the wiretap that Nerlens Noel is probably not going to play at all this year. Was that expected because I was surprised to read that.

Yeah, I think most teams knew that could be the outcome. That was one reason why he slid so far. A number of teams figured they couldn't take the PR hit of using a top five pick on a guy who might not play at all year one.

If he were "Shaq" he still would have gone #1 overall, even with the injury. But he wasn't that caliber of a prospect.

[Baddy Chuck]

I still would've drafted Noel #1.

[Turk Nowitzki]

Yeah, I get that. I knew he was hurt, I just didn't know it was going to cost him this entire season.

[CanadaBucks]

Yeah, I get that. I knew he was hurt, I just didn't know it was going to cost him this entire season.

Agent evidently says "not so fast"

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/392423664509255680[/tweet]

[KidA24]

Yeah, I get that. I knew he was hurt, I just didn't know it was going to cost him this entire season.

If you're Philly, what's the rush to bring him back? To take you from 7 to 13 wins, and risk further injury if he's not quite 100%?

[mattg]

If I were Utah, I wouldn't be signing either to $48 to $50mm contracts. Utah is still at least one stud away from having a core you'd go forward with. I'd be keeping my options open. Frankly, I'd rather have only Larry Sanders at 4/$44 plus the flexibility you get than to have both Favors and Hayward on my team tied up at $100 million.

Ehh, favors is gonna go 15/10/2 with good defense this year and Hayward will have bigger volume numbers since they are actually gonna give him the ball offensively instead of mo Williams chucking, I'd expect 18/5/6 or something along those lines. Saves the team a bunch of cash when they'd get max offers next year. Also your point about George having a higher ceiling is correct, which is also why there is 40 million difference in contracts.

Also convinced that some of you don't really watch Hayward at all. He's unquestionably a better,m ore skilled ball handler than George yet his shot creating ability gets compared to Redick? Come on. I know most of this board has hated Gordon and loved George since predraft times but you guys need to open your eyes. Right now George is a better player but Hayward isn't far off. George has more potential. Jeez.

[paul]

If I were Utah, I wouldn't be signing either to $48 to $50mm contracts. Utah is still at least one stud away from having a core you'd go forward with. I'd be keeping my options open. Frankly, I'd rather have only Larry Sanders at 4/$44 plus the flexibility you get than to have both Favors and Hayward on my team tied up at $100 million.

It's not a popular opinion, but Favors has been one of the most overrated players on our board for 3 years. Doesn't mean he's a bad player, but rarely has a career 8/6 guy got paid that much 3 years into his career virtually on potential alone. He's young but not that young, big but not that big, a good defender but not that good and has a limited offensive game. People point to his limited minutes and just assume he'll be an 18/10 guy as soon as he gets 35 a night, but the truth is it very rarely works out that way.

I really like Hayward, but that's a massive overpay for him as well.

Ehh, favors is gonna go 15/10/2 with good defense this year and Hayward will have bigger volume numbers since they are actually gonna give him the ball offensively instead of mo Williams chucking, I'd expect 18/5/6 or something along those lines. Saves the team a bunch of cash when they'd get max offers next year.

^^ Perfect example. Prior to last season one of the more prominent posters on the board told me Favors could be an allstar as soon as last season .

He's a good young player with plenty of potential, but that's all he's being payed on because up to this point his actual production and impact has been pretty limited in 3 years.

[paul]

Philly have a hilarious mix of young busts and burnouts. Brett Brown is gonna have his hands full.