ATL: Preseason edition (Is Hayward worth $50mm pg15)

[CanadaBucks]

Philly have a hilarious mix of young busts and burnouts. Brett Brown is gonna have his hands full.

And they'll play ET 40 mpg until someone offers something decent for him, maybe Thad Young and Hawes too.

[jr lucosa]

Where was his increased volume last season when Mo Williams missed a huge chunk of games and Watson & Tinsley combined to play some of the lowest usage basketball for a PG ever? It was 4 on 5 when those guys were on the court yet Hayward had his best volume stats month when Mo came back in March. Sure he can improve and there will be more shots available with many of Utah's top options on other teams now, but if you are paying a guy 12+ million he has to be a big time difference maker and I've never really seen that in him.

[paul]

Dellavedova with some more really impressive minutes. He's an NBA player.

[mattg]

Favors right now is the age sanders was when Larry came into the league, thats pretty young for a big man who everyone knew was a project coming in. And Of course people project what young players could do given more of an opportunity, using actual production and examining their skillset vs. expected role. Besides, didn't many of us do the same when we saw what Larry could do in limited minutes?

[paul]

Favors right now is the age sanders was when Larry came into the league, thats pretty young for a big man who everyone knew was a project coming in. And Of course people project what young players could do given more of an opportunity, using actual production and examining their skillset vs. expected role. Besides, didn't many of us do the same when we saw what Larry could do in limited minutes?

Larry was getting 5 minute games where he'd get yanked after his first mistake mixed in with DNP-CD's, not 20+ every night with all the freedom he wanted. The situations aren't remotely similar.

Favors was young, but was nothing like a Sanders level project. He was the #1 high school player in the country at one point, Sanders barely picked up a ball until he was a senior in high school. Favors was a feature at one of the bigger college programs in the country while Sanders went to VCU. Favors was then a lock to be a top 3 pick, while Sanders was a speculator at 15. They really share virtually nothing in common other than both being relatively tall.

As far as draft position, age, playing history and development goes he's much more comparable to Bogut than he is to Sanders. Put it this way - Favors was one year younger than Bogut when he got drafted, Bogut was a 12/9/3 guy after his third year and considered by most on this board to be a massive disappointment while Favors is a 8/6/0 career guy and some people are happy with his $13m a year deal. There are some minute differences obviously, but Favors lack of minutes can also be in part explained by the fact that he hasn't earned more.

Again I like him, but no way in hell I was giving him that contract now. Doesn't mean it won't work out, but I wasn't giving it.

[machu46]

I was thinking 8 or 9 a year prior to this coming out, I still wouldn't go over that if I was the Jazz but there's more than just talent involved in this one.

ETA-Sorry he's not close to the same caliber as Paul George though.

Yes he is. Sure George is a better athlete, defender and rebounder but Hayward is a significantly better shooter, and is a more versatile offensive player who can run the offense, play off ball or as a PnR handler. He scores at a better rate than George and turns the ball over less. They are most certainly similar caliber players and its silly that members of a board with as many smart posters as this one can't see that.

Looking at their offensive numbers, George is actually the better PnR handler in terms of points per possession. He also runs the PnR slightly more often than Hayward, so it's not as if he's more efficient on a smaller sample size.

George is also the better isolation scorer, and isolation plays make up over 12% of his offense, whereas it's only 7% for Hayward.

Hayward is better spotting up and off of screens, though George is no slouch in terms of spotting up.

They're actually closer defensively than most think in terms of points allowed per possession, but I would think a lot of this can also be factored to George usually defending the other team's star. George also forces more turnovers and is a far better rebounder.

And lastly, I think most would agree that George has far more potential than Hayward to improve their respective games, and George is already a better player by a decent amount IMO.

I'm definitely in the crowd that thinks if you're spending a little less than half of your salary cap on Favors and Hayward, you aren't going anywhere.

[mattg]

Favors right now is the age sanders was when Larry came into the league, thats pretty young for a big man who everyone knew was a project coming in. And Of course people project what young players could do given more of an opportunity, using actual production and examining their skillset vs. expected role. Besides, didn't many of us do the same when we saw what Larry could do in limited minutes?

Larry was getting 5 minute games where he'd get yanked after his first mistake mixed in with DNP-CD's, not 20+ every night with all the freedom he wanted. The situations aren't remotely similar.

Favors was young, but was nothing like a Sanders level project. He was the #1 high school player in the country at one point, Sanders barely picked up a ball until he was a senior in high school. Favors was a feature at one of the bigger college programs in the country while Sanders went to VCU. Favors was then a lock to be a top 3 pick, while Sanders was a speculator at 15. They really share virtually nothing in common other than both being relatively tall.

As far as draft position, age, playing history and development goes he's much more comparable to Bogut than he is to Sanders. Put it this way - Favors was one year younger than Bogut when he got drafted, Bogut was a 12/9/3 guy after his third year and considered by most on this board to be a massive disappointment while Favors is a 8/6/0 career guy and some people are happy with his $13m a year deal. There are some minute differences obviously, but Favors lack of minutes can also be in part explained by the fact that he hasn't earned more.

Again I like him, but no way in hell I was giving him that contract now. Doesn't mean it won't work out, but I wasn't giving it.

Favors was always ranked highly in recruiting services because of his athletic tools and potential. He was always RAW. His frosh year he couldn't catch the ball and had clumsy footwork. No touch, no moves, no J. But he still went high in the draft based on potential. All he had ever shown was his body, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim, he never ever had any polish or real skillset to speak of as a prospect. If you can't see the parallels to Larry you're blind. They're both athletic, defensive minded bigs who didn't get huge opportunities right away in their careers because they came in raw as hell. The only difference being that Larry was a few years older than favors.

You can also easily explain favors lack of minutes by the fact that the team had al Jefferson and Paul millsap. We've seen coaches who favor vets in the most inane of circumstances here, how about you go over to jazz board and get their opinion of Ty Corbin?

[paul]

Favors right now is the age sanders was when Larry came into the league, thats pretty young for a big man who everyone knew was a project coming in. And Of course people project what young players could do given more of an opportunity, using actual production and examining their skillset vs. expected role. Besides, didn't many of us do the same when we saw what Larry could do in limited minutes?

Larry was getting 5 minute games where he'd get yanked after his first mistake mixed in with DNP-CD's, not 20+ every night with all the freedom he wanted. The situations aren't remotely similar.

Favors was young, but was nothing like a Sanders level project. He was the #1 high school player in the country at one point, Sanders barely picked up a ball until he was a senior in high school. Favors was a feature at one of the bigger college programs in the country while Sanders went to VCU. Favors was then a lock to be a top 3 pick, while Sanders was a speculator at 15. They really share virtually nothing in common other than both being relatively tall.

As far as draft position, age, playing history and development goes he's much more comparable to Bogut than he is to Sanders. Put it this way - Favors was one year younger than Bogut when he got drafted, Bogut was a 12/9/3 guy after his third year and considered by most on this board to be a massive disappointment while Favors is a 8/6/0 career guy and some people are happy with his $13m a year deal. There are some minute differences obviously, but Favors lack of minutes can also be in part explained by the fact that he hasn't earned more.

Again I like him, but no way in hell I was giving him that contract now. Doesn't mean it won't work out, but I wasn't giving it.

Favors was always ranked highly in recruiting services because of his athletic tools and potential. He was always RAW. His frosh year he couldn't catch the ball and had clumsy footwork. No touch, no moves, no J. But he still went high in the draft based on potential. All he had ever shown was his body, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim, he never ever had any polish or real skillset to speak of as a prospect. If you can't see the parallels to Larry you're blind. They're both athletic, defensive minded bigs who didn't get huge opportunities right away in their careers because they came in raw as hell. The only difference being that Larry was a few years older than favors.

You can also easily explain favors lack of minutes by the fact that the team had al Jefferson and Paul millsap. We've seen coaches who favor vets in the most inane of circumstances here, how about you go over to jazz board and get their opinion of Ty Corbin?

You didn't really read what I wrote and then think I wasn't aware of how Corbin has treated him or how their fans felt about it did you? I didn't say his coach didn't limit his minutes as well, I said that part of his lack of minutes was on him. I watched them a lot last season (sadly) and despite showing plenty of potential he really had a very limited impact in a lot of the games he played. Personally that roster wasn't going anywhere and I would have played him before both Jefferson and Milsap, but not if I was looking to win as was clearly Corbin's somewhat bizarre mandate.

[paulpressey25]

Favors was always ranked highly in recruiting services because of his athletic tools and potential. He was always RAW. His frosh year he couldn't catch the ball and had clumsy footwork. No touch, no moves, no J. But he still went high in the draft based on potential.

I agree that Favors was always a raw guy who scouts fell in love with because of his body. I'm not sure though he'll ever be more than he is now though.

BTW--this has been a good debate. Nice to talk real ball again.

[emunney]

HEY WHO THE FU-- oh my bad man.

[TroyD92]

HEY WHO THE FU-- oh my bad man.

I'd say that too. Jesus christ Artest is one scary dude.

[paulpressey25]

I could do without both Artest and Psycho T. Nutcases.

[worthlessBucks]

He will kill someone at some point, I don't doubt that.

[paul]

He will kill someone at some point, I don't doubt that.

I genuinely agree.

Psycho T is all on-court showy nutcase, Artest is a genuine psychopath imo.

[paulpressey25]

He will kill someone at some point, I don't doubt that.

Sam Smith saw Artest up close covering the Bulls. In years past he wrote a column or two where he said he felt Artest was too mentally unstable to be in the league and that the NBA was playing with fire by allowing him to stay around. And this was before the Brawl in the Palace (10-year anniversary next month I think).

[worthlessBucks]

He will kill someone at some point, I don't doubt that.

Sam Smith saw Artest up close covering the Bulls. In years past he wrote a column or two where he said he felt Artest was too mentally unstable to be in the league and that the NBA was playing with fire by allowing him to stay around. And this was before the Brawl in the Palace (10-year anniversary next month I think).

Yeah, he's a ticking time bomb. The Harden elbow looked completely deliberate and malicious from the replays, I wouldn't have allowed him to play again after that. Mental health care in this country needs some improvement.

[TheWig]

Just read on hoopshype that the spurs will have a camo alternate jersey to honor the military. The jersey will also include short sleeves...

Just for the hell of it I would like to see the Bucks with camo jerseys, but that's just me.

[CanadaBucks]

Just read on hoopshype that the spurs will have a camo alternate jersey to honor the military. The jersey will also include short sleeves...

Just for the hell of it I would like to see the Bucks with camo jerseys, but that's just me.

Look at the Raptors camo........no thanks

On the flip side we would get all the Wal-Mart shoppers as fans

[Badgerlander]

I think a Mossy Oak Camo trimmed in Blaze Orange would be pretty cool if done right. Anything is better than Christmas colors or Purple. The Red jerseys are the only ones that I like, but I could do without the ugly white waistband and trim on the shorts.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

He will kill someone at some point, I don't doubt that.

Sam Smith saw Artest up close covering the Bulls. In years past he wrote a column or two where he said he felt Artest was too mentally unstable to be in the league and that the NBA was playing with fire by allowing him to stay around. And this was before the Brawl in the Palace (10-year anniversary next month I think).

That clip of Psycho T ready to get in someone's face until he realizes it's Artest is hilarious.

But yeah, I remember that Sam Smith article. I also recall a thread we had prior to a season starting, I think the 2005-2006 season, where people were also including a "wild card" prediction to go along with more standard NBA predictions. I remember midranger went with something to the effect of "Ron Artest will kill himself or someone else this season"

That always stuck with me, because I didn't see it as some unrealistic reach to be edgy. If anything like that would happen, who would be surprised?